The All Black's current midfield balance.
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well
Of course there needs to be a balance. Conversely, if the 1st 5 never runs the defence will just drift out to the 2nd 5/centre, cutting down their time and space.
I agree that the alignment of the backline and the lack of players in motion is also an issue. That includes the 1st 5 who can still move forward before passing rather than being static after receiving the ball from the halfback. As an example, Kerevi's try was great to watch and a typical RL backline move.
Agreed. When I coach I always tell first fives that they have to go forward first to prevent the defence sliding, even if it's only two steps and don't take the ball standing still. The difference it makes for outsides is immense.
@antipodean said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well
Of course there needs to be a balance. Conversely, if the 1st 5 never runs the defence will just drift out to the 2nd 5/centre, cutting down their time and space.
I agree that the alignment of the backline and the lack of players in motion is also an issue. That includes the 1st 5 who can still move forward before passing rather than being static after receiving the ball from the halfback. As an example, Kerevi's try was great to watch and a typical RL backline move.
Agreed. When I coach I always tell first fives that they have to go forward first to prevent the defence sliding, even if it's only two steps and don't take the ball standing still. The difference it makes for outsides is immense.
Being an ex 2nd five/centre you have nailed it,It makes a Hugh difference, to stop sliding sideways you only have a few options in the MF to a static First Five, straighten up which can lead to turnovers or try to have some manupliation of the defence with inside runners,Dummy runners or cut out passes.Somewhere you have to go forward in the Mf or create quick space outside you.If you have nothing happening outside and around you have only one option crash ball in the MF then you need very quick ball,Good aggressive cleaners to carry the momentum.or we get what we did against SA a heavy defence that we are slow or to lazy or dumb to hit hard enough so we have dominance by the opposition at the breakdown,A recurring theme with this AB's this season and last season.
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well
Of course there needs to be a balance. Conversely, if the 1st 5 never runs the defence will just drift out to the 2nd 5/centre, cutting down their time and space.
I agree that the alignment of the backline and the lack of players in motion is also an issue. That includes the 1st 5 who can still move forward before passing rather than being static after receiving the ball from the halfback. As an example, Kerevi's try was great to watch and a typical RL backline move.
Fully agree. A backline in motion gives the first five all the options. A static one gives him two or three, none of which are great.
@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well
Of course there needs to be a balance. Conversely, if the 1st 5 never runs the defence will just drift out to the 2nd 5/centre, cutting down their time and space.
I agree that the alignment of the backline and the lack of players in motion is also an issue. That includes the 1st 5 who can still move forward before passing rather than being static after receiving the ball from the halfback. As an example, Kerevi's try was great to watch and a typical RL backline move.
Fully agree. A backline in motion gives the first five all the options. A static one gives him two or three, none of which are great.
I wonder if the obsession of playing the game at pace doesn't help sometimes. In the second half in particular, I felt that Weber and TJ were a little too quick to pass the ball, so that a couple of times neither BB nor RM looked ready to receive it. Of course, them getting the ball out too quick may have just been because the Boks were starting to drive us back off our ball (which di happen a few times).
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@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well
Of course there needs to be a balance. Conversely, if the 1st 5 never runs the defence will just drift out to the 2nd 5/centre, cutting down their time and space.
I agree that the alignment of the backline and the lack of players in motion is also an issue. That includes the 1st 5 who can still move forward before passing rather than being static after receiving the ball from the halfback. As an example, Kerevi's try was great to watch and a typical RL backline move.
Fully agree. A backline in motion gives the first five all the options. A static one gives him two or three, none of which are great.
I wonder if the obsession of playing the game at pace doesn't help sometimes. In the second half in particular, I felt that Weber and TJ were a little too quick to pass the ball, so that a couple of times neither BB nor RM looked ready to receive it. Of course, them getting the ball out too quick may have just been because the Boks were starting to drive us back off our ball (which di happen a few times).
@junior I think just getting there and firing a pass is poor which is what some do, ideally the 9 needs to organise so you use the speed but you have options and those options know what's coming too
This is where there needs to be a bit of combination at 9-10.
BUt yeah, also requires ball security too to allow for the choice
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@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well
Of course there needs to be a balance. Conversely, if the 1st 5 never runs the defence will just drift out to the 2nd 5/centre, cutting down their time and space.
I agree that the alignment of the backline and the lack of players in motion is also an issue. That includes the 1st 5 who can still move forward before passing rather than being static after receiving the ball from the halfback. As an example, Kerevi's try was great to watch and a typical RL backline move.
Fully agree. A backline in motion gives the first five all the options. A static one gives him two or three, none of which are great.
I wonder if the obsession of playing the game at pace doesn't help sometimes. In the second half in particular, I felt that Weber and TJ were a little too quick to pass the ball, so that a couple of times neither BB nor RM looked ready to receive it. Of course, them getting the ball out too quick may have just been because the Boks were starting to drive us back off our ball (which di happen a few times).
@junior yeah, this team needs to learn to shift up and down gears rather than just trying to take off in 3rd every time. we fire the ball around thinking just sheer ball speed will beat people regardless of the defence thats set, i think we need to do a little more before to break up the defence or draw them in before we look to speed it up slow slow fast....slow slow fast
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@junior yeah, this team needs to learn to shift up and down gears rather than just trying to take off in 3rd every time. we fire the ball around thinking just sheer ball speed will beat people regardless of the defence thats set, i think we need to do a little more before to break up the defence or draw them in before we look to speed it up slow slow fast....slow slow fast
@kiwiwomble Wonder if Joseph Manu is still in the picture.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/report-new-zealand-rugby-eye-up-kiwi-nrl-star-for-cross-code-move/
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Though it was only Argentina, I think the best midfield display of the year so far was game Nr.2 vs the Argies, with MacKenzie, Tupaea and Ioane running and passing smoothly. I don't think DMac could be the answer at 1st Five but a midfield combo of Tupaea + Ioane would be a menace for even the best defenses.
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Though it was only Argentina, I think the best midfield display of the year so far was game Nr.2 vs the Argies, with MacKenzie, Tupaea and Ioane running and passing smoothly. I don't think DMac could be the answer at 1st Five but a midfield combo of Tupaea + Ioane would be a menace for even the best defenses.
@cgrant said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Though it was only Argentina, I think the best midfield display of the year so far was game Nr.2 vs the Argies, with MacKenzie, Tupaea and Ioane running and passing smoothly. I don't think DMac could be the answer at 1st Five but a midfield combo of Tupaea + Ioane would be a menace for even the best defenses.
It was certainly the combo and styles though. It keeps being mentioned how BB plays flat. If you watch that game again you will note that DMac played as a distributing 10 with the centres a touch deeper and running on to passes in front of them. BB tends to pass at the man not in front (from static play)
This combo you mention looked good because they were given the opportunity to from their 10. Good midfield combos switch it up with both being capable of running straight or angles to gaps.The trick is for them to decide which will do which each play and stick to it. You either take the gap toward the straight runner or run straight waiting for the call if a gap is found. KISS -
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well, but as alluded to earlier, the backline seems to stand very flat, making it hard to put them into space at pace.
The thing is, the flatness wouldn't be an issue if the line was in motion. It's hard to get a pass away that creates a hole in the defence if the defence is closing in at pace, and the attackers are just starting to accelerate.
I honestly just don't get the strategy at the moment, and a lot of tries that we've scored against Aus and Arg seem to be from broken play, where we have superior skills and seem to make great decisions, and where their scramble defence seems to struggle.
Would love to see someone like squidge examine it tbh. Surely there's something I'm missing, because the coaches and players are supposed to be the best in the world, and most of them have lived and breathed rugby their whole lives. So why do they look so ordinary when there's a defensive line in front of them?
@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Would love to see someone like squidge examine it tbh. Surely there's something I'm missing, because the coaches and players are supposed to be the best in the world, and most of them have lived and breathed rugby their whole lives. So why do they look so ordinary when there's a defensive line in front of them?
Maybe I'm over-simplifying but SR, or indeed club rugby at any level, doesn't give the experience to cope with a Sean Edwards style ultra rush/press defense.
I hope it changes but feel it may require a long-term move to an ultra-skilled 23 before it happens. Brodie Retallick like skills in every forward. Which tbf I see the AB's trying to achieve.
Squidge will analyse it and conclude a new flexi 1-4-3-2 pod system which exists only in his imagination (and yes I do love his enthusiasm and miss his earlier uncensored work especially!)
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Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
There's a great piece of post (or-mid) game punditry with Jonny Wilkinson taking about about a first-five earning their pay when they have "no good options" at all, and that moment "ALL the forwards turn to look at you to see what you're going to do". He talks about the decision making process in that split-second.
Very enlightening, Sean Fitzpatrick was there too and grinning broadly as Jonny talked. Obviously Sean understood that moment too! :face_with_tears_of_joy:
I'll post a link if I can find it again.
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
There's a great piece of post (or-mid) game punditry with Jonny Wilkinson taking about about a first-five earning their pay when they have "no good options" at all, and that moment "ALL the forwards turn to look at you to see what you're going to do". He talks about the decision making process in that split-second.
Very enlightening, Sean Fitzpatrick was there too and grinning broadly as Jonny talked. Obviously Sean understood that moment too! :face_with_tears_of_joy:
I'll post a link if I can find it again.
@l_n_p some of our backs just need to get better to running to support and how to go to ground and recycle, its a worry how many are getting held up or getting isolated and turning the ball over
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@l_n_p some of our backs just need to get better to running to support and how to go to ground and recycle, its a worry how many are getting held up or getting isolated and turning the ball over
@kiwiwomble said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@l_n_p some of our backs just need to get better to running to support and how to go to ground and recycle, its a worry how many are getting held up or getting isolated and turning the ball over
You just described George Bridge.
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@kiwiwomble said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@l_n_p some of our backs just need to get better to running to support and how to go to ground and recycle, its a worry how many are getting held up or getting isolated and turning the ball over
You just described George Bridge.
@crazy-horse i dont know, i would say his biggest fault is he always runs infield, i assume looking for support, never backs himself out wide, fair call re not recycling though
i was actually thinking of DMac, the only reason he doesnt get caught with the ball a lot is he'll just throw it away if there a chance he'll get tackled (exaggerating i know) or Havili, in the first test, it wasn;t all his fault he was getting the ball under huge pressure but rather than accepting the odds of breaking the line were low and looking to recycle he would run upright into the tackle hoping to break it and often either get held up or get isolated
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@l_n_p some of our backs just need to get better to running to support and how to go to ground and recycle, its a worry how many are getting held up or getting isolated and turning the ball over
@kiwiwomble said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@l_n_p some of our backs just need to get better to running to support and how to go to ground and recycle, its a worry how many are getting held up or getting isolated and turning the ball over
This is a good point and I wonder if it comes from the obsession with the offload.
Rather than running a support line behind the guy with the ball so you have options to clean out or change or angle to get in space and receive a pass, our support runners are often lateral to receive a pass and so when the pass doesn't come we end up over running the tackle area and having to clean out from the wrong side and with no momentum
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@kiwiwomble said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@l_n_p some of our backs just need to get better to running to support and how to go to ground and recycle, its a worry how many are getting held up or getting isolated and turning the ball over
This is a good point and I wonder if it comes from the obsession with the offload.
Rather than running a support line behind the guy with the ball so you have options to clean out or change or angle to get in space and receive a pass, our support runners are often lateral to receive a pass and so when the pass doesn't come we end up over running the tackle area and having to clean out from the wrong side and with no momentum
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@junior i think that might be the case, and i think that comes from this approach to try and open a team up from anywhere on the field...which is great if you can do it....but if you cant and keep trying you can get yourself in trouble
I wondered about Bridge - if he was told to always do that, lacked confidence, or if it just seemed the safest thing to do.
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I wondered about Bridge - if he was told to always do that, lacked confidence, or if it just seemed the safest thing to do.
@nostrildamus said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
I wondered about Bridge - if he was told to always do that, lacked confidence, or if it just seemed the safest thing to do.
It was so single minded, I'm pretty confident that he was under instruction. He wasn't, however, told to fix buckets where his hands should be.
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@nostrildamus said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
I wondered about Bridge - if he was told to always do that, lacked confidence, or if it just seemed the safest thing to do.
It was so single minded, I'm pretty confident that he was under instruction. He wasn't, however, told to fix buckets where his hands should be.
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@nostrildamus said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
I wondered about Bridge - if he was told to always do that, lacked confidence, or if it just seemed the safest thing to do.
It was so single minded, I'm pretty confident that he was under instruction. He wasn't, however, told to fix buckets where his hands should be.
Brad Shields had a good career for someone with toasters for hands I must say.
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@nostrildamus said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
I wondered about Bridge - if he was told to always do that, lacked confidence, or if it just seemed the safest thing to do.
It was so single minded, I'm pretty confident that he was under instruction. He wasn't, however, told to fix buckets where his hands should be.
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@nostrildamus said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
I wondered about Bridge - if he was told to always do that, lacked confidence, or if it just seemed the safest thing to do.
It was so single minded, I'm pretty confident that he was under instruction. He wasn't, however, told to fix buckets where his hands should be.
yeah. little to discuss re his efforts under the highball
His efforst with the ball in hand are more interesting, to me ti looked like he was under direction, someone was trying to "fix" his game by hammering into him to always run to support and really it just made things worse, before he went between invisible to ineffective....in that game he topped the list for almost losing the game
edit: writing this made me think, Its something i noticed clarke doing last year, at first i thought "good, safe play from the new guy" but then as it became more obvious i started thinking "back ya self mate!" and getting a little frustrated
Im wondering if its someone in the coaching team thats preaching it....and i dont like it for a left winger. most peoples dominate pass is right to left and so the left winger should have the luxury of as much space as he likes and so should be looking to get outside his man or stretching the defence to make a hole midifield, left winger defaulting to running out to in just seems a waste
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@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@nostrildamus said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
I wondered about Bridge - if he was told to always do that, lacked confidence, or if it just seemed the safest thing to do.
It was so single minded, I'm pretty confident that he was under instruction. He wasn't, however, told to fix buckets where his hands should be.
yeah. little to discuss re his efforts under the highball
His efforst with the ball in hand are more interesting, to me ti looked like he was under direction, someone was trying to "fix" his game by hammering into him to always run to support and really it just made things worse, before he went between invisible to ineffective....in that game he topped the list for almost losing the game
edit: writing this made me think, Its something i noticed clarke doing last year, at first i thought "good, safe play from the new guy" but then as it became more obvious i started thinking "back ya self mate!" and getting a little frustrated
Im wondering if its someone in the coaching team thats preaching it....and i dont like it for a left winger. most peoples dominate pass is right to left and so the left winger should have the luxury of as much space as he likes and so should be looking to get outside his man or stretching the defence to make a hole midifield, left winger defaulting to running out to in just seems a waste
@kiwiwomble said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
most peoples dominate pass is right to left
Think that's a thing of the past.
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@kiwiwomble said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
most peoples dominate pass is right to left
Think that's a thing of the past.
