Aussie Pro Rugby
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...not jumping into the middle of that
@Derpus i dont like it because i think the central contracting is playing a part in what i consider a disconnect between grass roots rugby and the AB's, everything is top down (famously an unstable building technique)
Ironically its what i already see in aussie rugby, guys in my club not even knowing what time super games were on, they would finish playing and then go to the pub to watch the AFL, and i dont think this will change any of that
Also, we have famously bagged how RA has been run....do we want the same people in charge of everything?
@kiwiwomble the disconnect is already happening over in NZ - has been for some time. Clubs can't get enough props and are drifting further from their provincial team. Certain schools are warehousing all the talent. Kids are picked for NPC before they finish high school. If you're not in the groove by the time you hit a certain age, you're unlikely to get into the top tiers anyway, so quit.
Throw in demographic changes, financial challenges (Saturday work is a killer) and the options people now have to spend their weekend, and you're looking at rugby being a tough game to support at times.
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@kiwiwomble the disconnect is already happening over in NZ - has been for some time. Clubs can't get enough props and are drifting further from their provincial team. Certain schools are warehousing all the talent. Kids are picked for NPC before they finish high school. If you're not in the groove by the time you hit a certain age, you're unlikely to get into the top tiers anyway, so quit.
Throw in demographic changes, financial challenges (Saturday work is a killer) and the options people now have to spend their weekend, and you're looking at rugby being a tough game to support at times.
@nta thats what im saying, and thats in NZ where previously a very strong NPC following, so following that track when you dont have that base level could be devastating
@nta said in Aussie Rugby:
@kiwiwomble Kids are picked for NPC before they finish high school.
sadly they're being picked for super teams and skipping NPC.....
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@nta thats what im saying, and thats in NZ where previously a very strong NPC following, so following that track when you dont have that base level could be devastating
@nta said in Aussie Rugby:
@kiwiwomble Kids are picked for NPC before they finish high school.
sadly they're being picked for super teams and skipping NPC.....
@kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:
sadly they're being picked for super teams and skipping NPC.....
I was talking at the minimum level. At least they'll play NPC - here they get thrown into shit club rugby.
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@kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:
sadly they're being picked for super teams and skipping NPC.....
I was talking at the minimum level. At least they'll play NPC - here they get thrown into shit club rugby.
@nta im with ya
the "old" structure came to be for good reason in my mind (school<club<NPC<Super<international) with the odd freak skipping steps, now we have have 19 years playing super rugby and wondering why theyre not as good/experienced as previous generations
ive said it before Fumi tanaka (already a japanese international) rocked up in Dunedin in 2012 with nothing other than the idea it was a good place to play, joined a club...played a whole club season...got picked for Otago...played a whole NPC season...got picked up by the Highlanders played a whole super season...that i respect
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@nta im with ya
the "old" structure came to be for good reason in my mind (school<club<NPC<Super<international) with the odd freak skipping steps, now we have have 19 years playing super rugby and wondering why theyre not as good/experienced as previous generations
ive said it before Fumi tanaka (already a japanese international) rocked up in Dunedin in 2012 with nothing other than the idea it was a good place to play, joined a club...played a whole club season...got picked for Otago...played a whole NPC season...got picked up by the Highlanders played a whole super season...that i respect
@kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:
ive said it before Fumi tanaka (already a japanese international) rocked up in Dunedin in 2012 with nothing other than the idea it was a good place to play, joined a club...played a whole club season...got picked for Otago...played a whole NPC season...got picked up by the Highlanders played a whole super season...that i respect
Exactly: show your wares, and progress through the levels.
One guy playing here in Sydney Subbies (when it was no amateur nearly a decade ago), was shown to the Brumbies as a talent, but they shrugged and said it'd take 2 years to get him up to speed just from the S&C point of view.
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@kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:
ive said it before Fumi tanaka (already a japanese international) rocked up in Dunedin in 2012 with nothing other than the idea it was a good place to play, joined a club...played a whole club season...got picked for Otago...played a whole NPC season...got picked up by the Highlanders played a whole super season...that i respect
Exactly: show your wares, and progress through the levels.
One guy playing here in Sydney Subbies (when it was no amateur nearly a decade ago), was shown to the Brumbies as a talent, but they shrugged and said it'd take 2 years to get him up to speed just from the S&C point of view.
@nta and our super teams (and i think the aussie ones are similar) are trying to control their own stream of talent, so they have age grade teams...but then have almost no one to play....i just dont think that is better than just letting these young guys go out and pay 12 clubs games trying to earn a NPC contract and then another 10 npc games all before getting a look in at super level
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@nta and our super teams (and i think the aussie ones are similar) are trying to control their own stream of talent, so they have age grade teams...but then have almost no one to play....i just dont think that is better than just letting these young guys go out and pay 12 clubs games trying to earn a NPC contract and then another 10 npc games all before getting a look in at super level
@kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:
@nta and our super teams (and i think the aussie ones are similar) are trying to control their own stream of talent, so they have age grade teams...but then have almost no one to play....i just dont think that is better than just letting these young guys go out and pay 12 clubs games trying to earn a NPC contract and then another 10 npc games all before getting a look in at super level
That won't work in the modern era because most good school programmes are more professional than a bunch of NPC ones. The pathways are well known and developed in New Zealand rugby for stars. It's school -> academy -> SR. For those that miss out they can still make their case shining in NPC and earning a SR contract.
It's hard to argue that central contracting hasn't been a success. It's the idea that the highest level of administration can dictate where a player can go and what position they'll play in that squad. That's an absurd level of micromanagement.
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@kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:
@nta and our super teams (and i think the aussie ones are similar) are trying to control their own stream of talent, so they have age grade teams...but then have almost no one to play....i just dont think that is better than just letting these young guys go out and pay 12 clubs games trying to earn a NPC contract and then another 10 npc games all before getting a look in at super level
That won't work in the modern era because most good school programmes are more professional than a bunch of NPC ones. The pathways are well known and developed in New Zealand rugby for stars. It's school -> academy -> SR. For those that miss out they can still make their case shining in NPC and earning a SR contract.
It's hard to argue that central contracting hasn't been a success. It's the idea that the highest level of administration can dictate where a player can go and what position they'll play in that squad. That's an absurd level of micromanagement.
@antipodean i cant prove it and so you might be right...but, i feel its success so far is still propped up by the NPC and club scene in NZ, when the development squad fail the super teams fall back on the NPC....but as the NPC is ignored more and more by NZR and left to become more and more amature, because they only see this school<dev<super pathway, we could be in trouble...and i think were seeing it in the current AB's....where some guys just seem a little undercooked...and theyre having to develop more and more INSIDE the AB's...and i only see that getting worse
I hope im wrong and you're right
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Another interesting read
https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/10/06/how-the-wallabies-are-building-cohesion-towards-2023/
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Another interesting read
https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/10/06/how-the-wallabies-are-building-cohesion-towards-2023/
@machpants good read that. Cohesion. Trust. Vital ingredients. You have to trust the gameplan, even if it is not quite working. How many times under McCaw did the ABs chase down other teams because they trusted each other and the gameplan?
ABs have a raft of new faces. It takes time to bed them in and build up the trust and cohesion in the team. Backrow and centres is a great case in point. Foster needs to play settled combinations so they can learn to subconsciously understand each others games. In tests like the one just passed, split second hesitation can result in a bombed try opportunity or a misalignment on defence.
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@machpants good read that. Cohesion. Trust. Vital ingredients. You have to trust the gameplan, even if it is not quite working. How many times under McCaw did the ABs chase down other teams because they trusted each other and the gameplan?
ABs have a raft of new faces. It takes time to bed them in and build up the trust and cohesion in the team. Backrow and centres is a great case in point. Foster needs to play settled combinations so they can learn to subconsciously understand each others games. In tests like the one just passed, split second hesitation can result in a bombed try opportunity or a misalignment on defence.
@stodders said in Aussie Rugby:
@machpants good read that. Cohesion. Trust. Vital ingredients. You have to trust the gameplan, even if it is not quite working. How many times under McCaw did the ABs chase down other teams because they trusted each other and the gameplan?
ABs have a raft of new faces. It takes time to bed them in and build up the trust and cohesion in the team. Backrow and centres is a great case in point. Foster needs to play settled combinations so they can learn to subconsciously understand each others games. In tests like the one just passed, split second hesitation can result in a bombed try opportunity or a misalignment on defence.
While I agree with your point about combinations 1000%, it totally blows my mind that us plebs on internet forums have to keep making the point like it's some sort of revelation. Surely any coach knows this, so how is it possible that we keep having so many different combinations in the back row and the centres in particular? I get injuries and the need to blood new players, but generally those are both more manageable than we have made it appear,
We had a golden run with Kaino, Read, McCaw + Ma'a, Conrad, but both before and since, it feels like we have neglected the idea of combinations being important in favour of getting certain guys on the field
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@stodders said in Aussie Rugby:
@machpants good read that. Cohesion. Trust. Vital ingredients. You have to trust the gameplan, even if it is not quite working. How many times under McCaw did the ABs chase down other teams because they trusted each other and the gameplan?
ABs have a raft of new faces. It takes time to bed them in and build up the trust and cohesion in the team. Backrow and centres is a great case in point. Foster needs to play settled combinations so they can learn to subconsciously understand each others games. In tests like the one just passed, split second hesitation can result in a bombed try opportunity or a misalignment on defence.
While I agree with your point about combinations 1000%, it totally blows my mind that us plebs on internet forums have to keep making the point like it's some sort of revelation. Surely any coach knows this, so how is it possible that we keep having so many different combinations in the back row and the centres in particular? I get injuries and the need to blood new players, but generally those are both more manageable than we have made it appear,
We had a golden run with Kaino, Read, McCaw + Ma'a, Conrad, but both before and since, it feels like we have neglected the idea of combinations being important in favour of getting certain guys on the field
@voodoo said in Aussie Rugby:
@stodders said in Aussie Rugby:
@machpants good read that. Cohesion. Trust. Vital ingredients. You have to trust the gameplan, even if it is not quite working. How many times under McCaw did the ABs chase down other teams because they trusted each other and the gameplan?
ABs have a raft of new faces. It takes time to bed them in and build up the trust and cohesion in the team. Backrow and centres is a great case in point. Foster needs to play settled combinations so they can learn to subconsciously understand each others games. In tests like the one just passed, split second hesitation can result in a bombed try opportunity or a misalignment on defence.
While I agree with your point about combinations 1000%, it totally blows my mind that us plebs on internet forums have to keep making the point like it's some sort of revelation. Surely any coach knows this, so how is it possible that we keep having so many different combinations in the back row and the centres in particular? I get injuries and the need to blood new players, but generally those are both more manageable than we have made it appear,
We had a golden run with Kaino, Read, McCaw + Ma'a, Conrad, but both before and since, it feels like we have neglected the idea of combinations being important in favour of getting certain guys on the field
I think the chemistry has to be right. Some combinations just gel. Others just don't, even if you have 3 individually brilliant players. The AB focus has to be on the front five providing a better platform. Get that right, and the ABs have players to put in the backrow that will be able to showcase their offensive abilities.
If the front five can't be sorted or AB management don't believe they have the players to control the game, then ABs need to select a backrow that can work hard under pressure and has the ability to grind things out.
Two v different backrows and skillsets needed for those scenarios.
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Read the title of the thread fellas. Get that rubbish chat out of here.
Unless you are continually referring to Allan Border, in which case... carry on.
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby:
Read the title of the thread fellas. Get that rubbish chat out of here.
Unless you are continually referring to Allan Border, in which case... carry on.
Apologies Barbarian. Oz are on an upward trajectory and will sweep all before them in NH. better?
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@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby:
Read the title of the thread fellas. Get that rubbish chat out of here.
Unless you are continually referring to Allan Border, in which case... carry on.
Apologies Barbarian. Oz are on an upward trajectory and will sweep all before them in NH. better?
@stodders said in Aussie Rugby:
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby:
Read the title of the thread fellas. Get that rubbish chat out of here.
Unless you are continually referring to Allan Border, in which case... carry on.
Apologies Barbarian. Oz are on an upward trajectory and will sweep all before them in NH. better?
Yes. Frankly I'd be surprised if we lose another game in my lifetime. We're at the start of a golden era which will be spoken of for centuries to come.
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@stodders said in Aussie Rugby:
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby:
Read the title of the thread fellas. Get that rubbish chat out of here.
Unless you are continually referring to Allan Border, in which case... carry on.
Apologies Barbarian. Oz are on an upward trajectory and will sweep all before them in NH. better?
Yes. Frankly I'd be surprised if we lose another game in my lifetime. We're at the start of a golden era which will be spoken of for centuries to come.
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby:
@stodders said in Aussie Rugby:
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby:
Read the title of the thread fellas. Get that rubbish chat out of here.
Unless you are continually referring to Allan Border, in which case... carry on.
Apologies Barbarian. Oz are on an upward trajectory and will sweep all before them in NH. better?
Yes. Frankly I'd be surprised if we lose another game in my lifetime. We're at the start of a golden era which will be spoken of for centuries to come.
"Ah what? Another World Cup?!! Just throw it on the pile with the rest, cobber...."
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@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby:
@stodders said in Aussie Rugby:
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby:
Read the title of the thread fellas. Get that rubbish chat out of here.
Unless you are continually referring to Allan Border, in which case... carry on.
Apologies Barbarian. Oz are on an upward trajectory and will sweep all before them in NH. better?
Yes. Frankly I'd be surprised if we lose another game in my lifetime. We're at the start of a golden era which will be spoken of for centuries to come.
"Ah what? Another World Cup?!! Just throw it on the pile with the rest, cobber...."
@nta Knowing Aussie rugby fans, it would be closer to "Yes, we won our 13th straight cup, and I suppose that is a positive, but our lineout was a shambles and things fell to pieces when the bench came on once we got up by 40. If coach Quade Cooper doesn't fix those up I just can't see us holding on to the Bledisloe for the 53rd straight year."
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@nta Knowing Aussie rugby fans, it would be closer to "Yes, we won our 13th straight cup, and I suppose that is a positive, but our lineout was a shambles and things fell to pieces when the bench came on once we got up by 40. If coach Quade Cooper doesn't fix those up I just can't see us holding on to the Bledisloe for the 53rd straight year."
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@barbarian
so... Basically Kiwis?
