All Blacks EOYT 2021
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@nepia said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Good to see they're pissed about it, but (as Squidge pointed out) Foster's ABs have big deficencies. Masked by the skill levels of the players, esp on counter, but still no tactical idea beyond that
If SA didn't get that last gasp penalty and we were unbeaten with two wins over the RWC holders would the big deficiencies still exist?
If we roll all our NH opposition that would mean that the state of rugby around the world was in the toilet if that is the case.
I have't actually watched the Squidge tape so not sure what the deficiencies are.
Key point on attack is if we don;t break through on attack straight away, we achieve nothing. Add a few phases in and our shape falls to pieces, at a time we should be building pressure. So outside counter or a bit of 1st phase genius, ABs don't have much on attack.
@machpants said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Good to see they're pissed about it, but (as Squidge pointed out) Foster's ABs have big deficencies. Masked by the skill levels of the players, esp on counter, but still no tactical idea beyond that
If SA didn't get that last gasp penalty and we were unbeaten with two wins over the RWC holders would the big deficiencies still exist?
If we roll all our NH opposition that would mean that the state of rugby around the world was in the toilet if that is the case.
I have't actually watched the Squidge tape so not sure what the deficiencies are.
Key point on attack is if we don;t break through on attack straight away, we achieve nothing. Add a few phases in and our shape falls to pieces, at a time we should be building pressure. So outside counter or a bit of 1st phase genius, ABs don't have much on attack.
That's hardly insightful. That applies to all teams, hence why they kick after a few phases if they aren't making progress. The world has moved on from Brumby Ball.
The problem for the All Blacks is that they're not making good decisions and they're not executing well. We know this because they are creating space, they're just not exploiting that against better disciplined teams. When we make poor decisions we're easily read.
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@machpants said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Good to see they're pissed about it, but (as Squidge pointed out) Foster's ABs have big deficencies. Masked by the skill levels of the players, esp on counter, but still no tactical idea beyond that
If SA didn't get that last gasp penalty and we were unbeaten with two wins over the RWC holders would the big deficiencies still exist?
If we roll all our NH opposition that would mean that the state of rugby around the world was in the toilet if that is the case.
I have't actually watched the Squidge tape so not sure what the deficiencies are.
Key point on attack is if we don;t break through on attack straight away, we achieve nothing. Add a few phases in and our shape falls to pieces, at a time we should be building pressure. So outside counter or a bit of 1st phase genius, ABs don't have much on attack.
That's hardly insightful. That applies to all teams, hence why they kick after a few phases if they aren't making progress. The world has moved on from Brumby Ball.
The problem for the All Blacks is that they're not making good decisions and they're not executing well. We know this because they are creating space, they're just not exploiting that against better disciplined teams. When we make poor decisions we're easily read.
@antipodean said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Good to see they're pissed about it, but (as Squidge pointed out) Foster's ABs have big deficencies. Masked by the skill levels of the players, esp on counter, but still no tactical idea beyond that
If SA didn't get that last gasp penalty and we were unbeaten with two wins over the RWC holders would the big deficiencies still exist?
If we roll all our NH opposition that would mean that the state of rugby around the world was in the toilet if that is the case.
I have't actually watched the Squidge tape so not sure what the deficiencies are.
Key point on attack is if we don;t break through on attack straight away, we achieve nothing. Add a few phases in and our shape falls to pieces, at a time we should be building pressure. So outside counter or a bit of 1st phase genius, ABs don't have much on attack.
That's hardly insightful. That applies to all teams, hence why they kick after a few phases if they aren't making progress. The world has moved on from Brumby Ball.
The problem for the All Blacks is that they're not making good decisions and they're not executing well. We know this because they are creating space, they're just not exploiting that against better disciplined teams. When we make poor decisions we're easily read.
South Africa?
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@antipodean said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Good to see they're pissed about it, but (as Squidge pointed out) Foster's ABs have big deficencies. Masked by the skill levels of the players, esp on counter, but still no tactical idea beyond that
If SA didn't get that last gasp penalty and we were unbeaten with two wins over the RWC holders would the big deficiencies still exist?
If we roll all our NH opposition that would mean that the state of rugby around the world was in the toilet if that is the case.
I have't actually watched the Squidge tape so not sure what the deficiencies are.
Key point on attack is if we don;t break through on attack straight away, we achieve nothing. Add a few phases in and our shape falls to pieces, at a time we should be building pressure. So outside counter or a bit of 1st phase genius, ABs don't have much on attack.
That's hardly insightful. That applies to all teams, hence why they kick after a few phases if they aren't making progress. The world has moved on from Brumby Ball.
The problem for the All Blacks is that they're not making good decisions and they're not executing well. We know this because they are creating space, they're just not exploiting that against better disciplined teams. When we make poor decisions we're easily read.
South Africa?
@booboo I read that as better than other teams rather than better than the ABs. I'd say yup, the Boks actually are quite disciplined, for them. And it worked 50% of the time...
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@antipodean said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Good to see they're pissed about it, but (as Squidge pointed out) Foster's ABs have big deficencies. Masked by the skill levels of the players, esp on counter, but still no tactical idea beyond that
If SA didn't get that last gasp penalty and we were unbeaten with two wins over the RWC holders would the big deficiencies still exist?
If we roll all our NH opposition that would mean that the state of rugby around the world was in the toilet if that is the case.
I have't actually watched the Squidge tape so not sure what the deficiencies are.
Key point on attack is if we don;t break through on attack straight away, we achieve nothing. Add a few phases in and our shape falls to pieces, at a time we should be building pressure. So outside counter or a bit of 1st phase genius, ABs don't have much on attack.
That's hardly insightful. That applies to all teams, hence why they kick after a few phases if they aren't making progress. The world has moved on from Brumby Ball.
The problem for the All Blacks is that they're not making good decisions and they're not executing well. We know this because they are creating space, they're just not exploiting that against better disciplined teams. When we make poor decisions we're easily read.
South Africa?
@booboo said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Good to see they're pissed about it, but (as Squidge pointed out) Foster's ABs have big deficencies. Masked by the skill levels of the players, esp on counter, but still no tactical idea beyond that
If SA didn't get that last gasp penalty and we were unbeaten with two wins over the RWC holders would the big deficiencies still exist?
If we roll all our NH opposition that would mean that the state of rugby around the world was in the toilet if that is the case.
I have't actually watched the Squidge tape so not sure what the deficiencies are.
Key point on attack is if we don;t break through on attack straight away, we achieve nothing. Add a few phases in and our shape falls to pieces, at a time we should be building pressure. So outside counter or a bit of 1st phase genius, ABs don't have much on attack.
That's hardly insightful. That applies to all teams, hence why they kick after a few phases if they aren't making progress. The world has moved on from Brumby Ball.
The problem for the All Blacks is that they're not making good decisions and they're not executing well. We know this because they are creating space, they're just not exploiting that against better disciplined teams. When we make poor decisions we're easily read.
South Africa?
Yes. South Africa is better disciplined at staying in their patterns than Argentina or Fiji.
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The upshot is that the video highlights that Havili is either a stopgap measure or a work in progress.
I guess that I haven’t previously watched him closely, just watched when he was involved.
He’s quite lost at times.
That Jordan try came after what looks like a horrible pass from BB but he was passing to Havili who didn’t come onto the ball
Will be interesting to see how they move or persist in the 12 jersey. -
@Crucial agree, Havili is a stop-gap at best. He's done OK but is not our longer term answer there. ALB and Rieko could work well; more and more I'm leaning towards putting Rieko in the midfield as he provides us that point of difference with his pace and power which is lacking at the moment.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@nevorian said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Seems like Wales vs NZ may miss key players like Tipuric, North, Biggar, Rees-Zammit, Faletau etc (see list, ignore clickbait headline)
"While Williams joins Justin Tipuric, George North, Leigh Halfpenny, Dan Lydiate, James Botham, Jarrod Evans and Josh Macleod on the injury list the Welsh are also without their England-based stars ... game is outside the official Test window which means Premiership clubs won’t be required to release their players for the fixture ... Dan Biggar, Louis Rees-Zammit, Taulupe Faletau, Callum Sheedy, Nick Tompkins, Ioan Lloyd and Tommy Reffell will be missing."
Great big banana skin waiting for us there then
pffft hahaha what? They haven't beaten us since the 50s, so suddenly they are a chance with half their starting team out?
Exactly
And Fozzies selections against what will be a Wales B team
@nevorian said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@nevorian said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Seems like Wales vs NZ may miss key players like Tipuric, North, Biggar, Rees-Zammit, Faletau etc (see list, ignore clickbait headline)
"While Williams joins Justin Tipuric, George North, Leigh Halfpenny, Dan Lydiate, James Botham, Jarrod Evans and Josh Macleod on the injury list the Welsh are also without their England-based stars ... game is outside the official Test window which means Premiership clubs won’t be required to release their players for the fixture ... Dan Biggar, Louis Rees-Zammit, Taulupe Faletau, Callum Sheedy, Nick Tompkins, Ioan Lloyd and Tommy Reffell will be missing."
Great big banana skin waiting for us there then
pffft hahaha what? They haven't beaten us since the 50s, so suddenly they are a chance with half their starting team out?
Exactly
And Fozzies selections against what will be a Wales B team
But a well coached Wales B Team. Pivac and Rennie seem to have a clear vision on where they're headed.
Both have come up via NH club Head Coach roles. NZ biggest drain these days imho is coaching talent, more than (key) player drain.
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The upshot is that the video highlights that Havili is either a stopgap measure or a work in progress.
I guess that I haven’t previously watched him closely, just watched when he was involved.
He’s quite lost at times.
That Jordan try came after what looks like a horrible pass from BB but he was passing to Havili who didn’t come onto the ball
Will be interesting to see how they move or persist in the 12 jersey.@crucial said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
The upshot is that the video highlights that Havili is either a stopgap measure or a work in progress.
I guess that I haven’t previously watched him closely, just watched when he was involved.
He’s quite lost at times.
That Jordan try came after what looks like a horrible pass from BB but he was passing to Havili who didn’t come onto the ball
Will be interesting to see how they move or persist in the 12 jersey.LOL, you conclude that from two seconds of a YT clip from an anonymous pundit that doesn't prove anything and who even specifically says in that video (in the text) that Havili wasn't the only one standing in the wrong position during that test? And BB's pass was a horrible pass.
On top of that, it's Havili's first year playing at 12, give the guy some time. He's been excellent against all other opposition. So work in progress is probably right, but a stopgap, way too soon to make that conclusion.
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@crucial said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
The upshot is that the video highlights that Havili is either a stopgap measure or a work in progress.
I guess that I haven’t previously watched him closely, just watched when he was involved.
He’s quite lost at times.
That Jordan try came after what looks like a horrible pass from BB but he was passing to Havili who didn’t come onto the ball
Will be interesting to see how they move or persist in the 12 jersey.LOL, you conclude that from two seconds of a YT clip from an anonymous pundit that doesn't prove anything and who even specifically says in that video (in the text) that Havili wasn't the only one standing in the wrong position during that test? And BB's pass was a horrible pass.
On top of that, it's Havili's first year playing at 12, give the guy some time. He's been excellent against all other opposition. So work in progress is probably right, but a stopgap, way too soon to make that conclusion.
@stargazer said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
The upshot is that the video highlights that Havili is either a stopgap measure or a work in progress.
I guess that I haven’t previously watched him closely, just watched when he was involved.
He’s quite lost at times.
That Jordan try came after what looks like a horrible pass from BB but he was passing to Havili who didn’t come onto the ball
Will be interesting to see how they move or persist in the 12 jersey.LOL, you conclude that from two seconds of a YT clip from an anonymous pundit that doesn't prove anything and who even specifically says in that video (in the text) that Havili wasn't the only one standing in the wrong position during that test? And BB's pass went to no one; if you actually listen, it sounds like Akira was asking for it, so Havili also wouldn't have expected it when the ball basically went in-between him and Akira. It was a horrible pass.
On top of that, it's Havili's first year playing at 12, give the guy some time. He's been excellent against all other opposition.
No the video highlighted something that I went back to check.
Of course Havili is new to the position, I'm not criticising him for doing a job he wasn't planning to do or expecting him to be a top 12 in his first year.
I am saying that it isn't working as well as it could be and that could be why the rest of the phase attack is struggling. The coaches still saw him as the best option and I am wondering if that view may change after a prolonged period to assess.I think ALB/RI is something to explore if they don't have confidence in Tupaea for the big games.
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@crucial said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
The upshot is that the video highlights that Havili is either a stopgap measure or a work in progress.
I guess that I haven’t previously watched him closely, just watched when he was involved.
He’s quite lost at times.
That Jordan try came after what looks like a horrible pass from BB but he was passing to Havili who didn’t come onto the ball
Will be interesting to see how they move or persist in the 12 jersey.LOL, you conclude that from two seconds of a YT clip from an anonymous pundit that doesn't prove anything and who even specifically says in that video (in the text) that Havili wasn't the only one standing in the wrong position during that test? And BB's pass was a horrible pass.
On top of that, it's Havili's first year playing at 12, give the guy some time. He's been excellent against all other opposition. So work in progress is probably right, but a stopgap, way too soon to make that conclusion.
@stargazer said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
it's Havili's first year playing at 12, give the guy some time.
people dont like waiting.
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I think the problems run way deeper than Havili at 12. The problems have been there since the Lions. I used to blame SBW for stifling the backline, but the issues have remained.
Buggered if I know the answer though.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
The upshot is that the video highlights that Havili is either a stopgap measure or a work in progress.
I guess that I haven’t previously watched him closely, just watched when he was involved.
He’s quite lost at times.
That Jordan try came after what looks like a horrible pass from BB but he was passing to Havili who didn’t come onto the ball
Will be interesting to see how they move or persist in the 12 jersey.LOL, you conclude that from two seconds of a YT clip from an anonymous pundit that doesn't prove anything and who even specifically says in that video (in the text) that Havili wasn't the only one standing in the wrong position during that test? And BB's pass went to no one; if you actually listen, it sounds like Akira was asking for it, so Havili also wouldn't have expected it when the ball basically went in-between him and Akira. It was a horrible pass.
On top of that, it's Havili's first year playing at 12, give the guy some time. He's been excellent against all other opposition.
No the video highlighted something that I went back to check.
Of course Havili is new to the position, I'm not criticising him for doing a job he wasn't planning to do or expecting him to be a top 12 in his first year.
I am saying that it isn't working as well as it could be and that could be why the rest of the phase attack is struggling. The coaches still saw him as the best option and I am wondering if that view may change after a prolonged period to assess.I think ALB/RI is something to explore if they don't have confidence in Tupaea for the big games.
@crucial said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@stargazer said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
The upshot is that the video highlights that Havili is either a stopgap measure or a work in progress.
I guess that I haven’t previously watched him closely, just watched when he was involved.
He’s quite lost at times.
That Jordan try came after what looks like a horrible pass from BB but he was passing to Havili who didn’t come onto the ball
Will be interesting to see how they move or persist in the 12 jersey.LOL, you conclude that from two seconds of a YT clip from an anonymous pundit that doesn't prove anything and who even specifically says in that video (in the text) that Havili wasn't the only one standing in the wrong position during that test? And BB's pass went to no one; if you actually listen, it sounds like Akira was asking for it, so Havili also wouldn't have expected it when the ball basically went in-between him and Akira. It was a horrible pass.
On top of that, it's Havili's first year playing at 12, give the guy some time. He's been excellent against all other opposition.
No the video highlighted something that I went back to check.
Of course Havili is new to the position, I'm not criticising him for doing a job he wasn't planning to do or expecting him to be a top 12 in his first year.
I am saying that it isn't working as well as it could be and that could be why the rest of the phase attack is struggling. The coaches still saw him as the best option and I am wondering if that view may change after a prolonged period to assess.I think ALB/RI is something to explore if they don't have confidence in Tupaea for the big games.
The problem with that is that you then return to the much-criticised inconsistency in selections, because you're shifing ALB from 13 to 12 and are partnering him with someone he's never played in combo with. I'd rather they stick with the current combo's (to which Goodhue is likely to be added next year) and give Tupaea starts and more game time against the lesser opponents, so he can develop, too. Also don't forget that Havili was the player making most tackles of any back in both games against S Africa. Defence is a huge part of his role and he does it well. It's only his attack against the Saffa type opponent that needs some work, but by the looks of it, that applies to almost the entire ABs team.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
it's Havili's first year playing at 12, give the guy some time.
people dont like waiting.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@stargazer said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
it's Havili's first year playing at 12, give the guy some time.
people dont like waiting.
Yep, and like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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I think the problems run way deeper than Havili at 12. The problems have been there since the Lions. I used to blame SBW for stifling the backline, but the issues have remained.
Buggered if I know the answer though.
@crazy-horse part of it is none of them are Nonu...I think Havili has done a reasonable job, similarly I thought Goodhue did a reasonable job playing an attacking role more suited to Laumape (if Laumpae had Goodhues brain and defence)
Are a few young guys coming through who could be options, ALB is probably the best option at present IMO, but filling the Nonu void is huge, coupled with getting the right balance with the 13.
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@crazy-horse part of it is none of them are Nonu...I think Havili has done a reasonable job, similarly I thought Goodhue did a reasonable job playing an attacking role more suited to Laumape (if Laumpae had Goodhues brain and defence)
Are a few young guys coming through who could be options, ALB is probably the best option at present IMO, but filling the Nonu void is huge, coupled with getting the right balance with the 13.
@taniwharugby I think part of the problem is that everyone keeps comparing every potential ABs 12 with Nonu. No one compares ALB (for example) with Conrad Smith. ALB is ALB, and no one calls him "the new Conrad Smith". Crotty was probably the player who came closest to being like CS,; not at 13 but at 12. If anything, Havili is quite crottyesque and can hopefully become just as good.
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ALB isn't going to be playing much at 2nd 5 for the Chiefs in the future, whether in combination with Tupaea or Nankivell.
Remember that Umaga moved from winger to centre but also played at 2nd 5. Trying Rieko at 12 might be worth looking at. While he won't get as much space compared to centre he can be a direct runner, and there are less decisions to be made defensively.
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@taniwharugby I think part of the problem is that everyone keeps comparing every potential ABs 12 with Nonu. No one compares ALB (for example) with Conrad Smith. ALB is ALB, and no one calls him "the new Conrad Smith". Crotty was probably the player who came closest to being like CS,; not at 13 but at 12. If anything, Havili is quite crottyesque and can hopefully become just as good.
@stargazer said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Havili is quite crottyesque and can hopefully become just as good
if we're going anywhere he needs to be way better than that
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@stargazer said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
it's Havili's first year playing at 12, give the guy some time.
people dont like waiting.
Yep, and like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
@stargazer said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@stargazer said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
it's Havili's first year playing at 12, give the guy some time.
people dont like waiting.
Yep, and like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Definitely one of my favourite hobbies
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@nevorian James Botham is the grandson of Ian? God, I feel old.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@nevorian James Botham is the grandson of Ian? God, I feel old.
Is his nickname Beefy too ? I’m assuming he’s Liams son, Liam is my age.
I feel old too.
