Defending your home

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="578760" data-time="1462941311">
Still doesn't sit right. 
Is the world a better place for no longer having Ricky Slater-Dickhead? - "probably". 
Is the world a worse place for having Benjamin Batteredthefuckouttahim behind bars? - also "probably". 
Life's not fair I suppose.</blockquote>
 
Not so sure I agree with the second point. Is the world better for having a bloke who chases (an admittedly bad bugger) 400m to be able to beat him and subsequently kill him behind bars? Yes I believe it is. 
Definitely agree with the first point.

aucklandwarlord

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="578762" data-time="1462941753">
<div>
Not so sure I agree with the second point. Is the world better for having a bloke who chases (an admittedly bad bugger) 400m to be able to beat him and subsequently kill him behind bars? Yes I believe it is. 
Definitely agree with the first point.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Interesting to see some light shed on the situation. I imagine it would take a reasonable amount of effort to choke someone to death. It's certainly not in the same category as killing them with a single punch.
 
I tend to agree with all three of Rembrandt's points, even though I know that as a (somewhat) decent human being I probably shouldn't agree with the second. The burglar was a meth addict who had only recently been released from prison. Given that in prison, theoretically guys are meant to be rehabilitated, or at least deterred from committing further crime,for him to come out and get almost straight back on the horse suggests to me that this guy would keep on offending and was probably beyond rehabilitation for at least the medium term. 
 
For me, it's all about choices. The burglar chose to go into the house, after dark, with the intention of stealing from someone he didn't know just as Batterham chose to chase the guy down over a substantial distance and then give him an absolute towelling which led to his death. Both were poor choices, both had massive consequences. 
 
I would suspect that legally Batterham won't have a leg to stand on and he will do a decent lag in prison. He'll have a very hard time arguing self defence if the alleged circumstances are true, and I'd imagine his lawyer will be looking to get a plea bargain to manslaughter as his best possible option.

aucklandwarlord

Although I did just read this in the same article which makes it even more interesting...
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
 
 
As eyewitnesses, including an off-duty police officer, repeatedly told Mr Batterham to stop, he allegedly continued to grip Mr Slater-Dickson around the throat with his face on the ground. But in applying for bail, defence barrister Winston Terracini SC said Mr Slater-Dickson had a range of medical issues, was addicted to the drug ice, had committed the â€œhome invasionâ€â€ and was armed with multiple knives.</blockquote>

Rembrandt

yeah beating someone to death isn't great..I guess I'm assuming he was otherwise a law abiding citizen with a family to support who just lost the plot when some feral invaded his home. Is there an argument for a temporary insanity type defence? Imagine being massively boozed up already and then being woken by some meth fiend in your house, any reasonable control could go right out the window

Catogrande

Oh well, if you're pissed up that's different. :whistle:

gollum

Part of it too is people have zero idea how easy it is to kill someone, you see a guy one TV beaten for half an hour with a club & thrown through a window then run away, when you finally get in a fight you assume putting a bar stool through the back of someone's head will just knock them out.
 
Ditto choke holds. You do those right they will knock someone out. You do them for 20 seconds longer they are a veggie & 10 seconds after that dead.
 
Ideally you want to go at the bad guys knees with a bat, wedge, tyre iron, anything really. Really go to town. Very hard to kill anyone with a crowbar to the knee even on your 10th swing. And they are not remotely a threat after about swing 1. It should be taught in schools

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="578867" data-time="1462983432">
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Part of it too is people have zero idea how easy it is to kill someone, you see a guy one TV beaten for half an hour with a club & thrown through a window then run away, when you finally get in a fight you assume putting a bar stool through the back of someone's head will just knock them out.
 
Ditto choke holds. You do those right they will knock someone out. You do them for 20 seconds longer they are a veggie & 10 seconds after that dead.
 
Ideally you want to go at the bad guys knees with a bat, wedge, tyre iron, anything really. Really go to town. Very hard to kill anyone with a crowbar to the knee even on your 10th swing. And they are not remotely a threat after about swing 1. It should be taught in schools
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</blockquote>
 
In Banshee you can get beaten, electrocuted, stabbed and shot ( preferably not all on the same day ) but it's nothing a stiff drink and a good night rooting/sleeping won't fix.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="578848" data-time="1462966307">
<div>
yeah beating someone to death isn't great..I guess I'm assuming he was otherwise a law abiding citizen with a family to support who just lost the plot when some feral invaded his home. Is there an argument for a temporary insanity type defence? Imagine being massively boozed up already and then being woken by some meth fiend in your house, any reasonable control could go right out the window
</div>
</blockquote>
 
If I read that article right, Batterham played hockey for Australia.

Rembrandt

Contrast this story with those drunk louts foiling that Oporto robbery a couple months back

Drunk louts = true blue aussie heroes, world wide fame!
 
Is the difference here just general fitness? Aussie hero had too many pies so couldn't catch up and hold the oporto thief.

barbarian

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="578959" data-time="1463015721">
<div>
Contrast this story with those drunk louts foiling that Oporto robbery a couple months back
 
Drunk louts = true blue aussie heroes, world wide fame!
 
Is the difference here just general fitness? Aussie hero had too many pies so couldn't catch up and hold the oporto thief.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Jesus that's a long bow. 
 
No-one is objecting to Batterham chasing down the thief, it's just what he did once he caught him that drastically crossed the line.
 
Are you suggesting these two blokes would have murdered the thief if they caught him??

jegga

Anyone else seen this weird case? <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://abcnews4.com/news/crime-news/judge-finds-probable-cause-loftis-will-stand-trial'>http://abcnews4.com/news/crime-news/judge-finds-probable-cause-loftis-will-stand-trial</a>

NTA

Don't think you're going to make a great case when you bury them. Manslaughter in self defence kind of implies you'd ring the cops straight away and tell them what happened.
 
But its a stressful situation so any weird shit could happen.

Rembrandt

Well certainly not intentionally. The big guy ran after him and was pretty pissed up, who is to say what might have happened had he caught him? He clearly felt he had to intervene even without a personal affiliation to the business being robbed, probably at least thought about holding him until the police arrived.

barbarian

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="579007" data-time="1463019469">
<div>
Well certainly not intentionally. The big guy ran after him and was pretty pissed up, who is to say what might have happened had he caught him? He clearly felt he had to intervene even without a personal affiliation to the business being robbed, probably at least thought about holding him until the police arrived.
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I'm still not sure what your point is. Plenty of people every day try to apprehend criminals, generally trying to be good citizens. That isn't what makes the Batterham case remarkable, it's the actions he took once he apprehended the bloke.
 
Trying to paint those two blokes as potential murderers is a bit silly.

taniwharugby

Sitting on some numpty until the cops arrive, or giving him a smack round the ears, or bumping his head into a wall while waiting for the cops is much, much different to killing someone you have chased for 400m...
 
How long would the average joe take to run 400m? >80/90sec?

aucklandwarlord

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="579015" data-time="1463020983">
<div>
 
Sitting on some numpty until the cops arrive, or giving him a smack round the ears, or bumping his head into a wall while waiting for the cops is much, much different to killing someone you have chased for 400m...
 
How long would the average joe take to run 400m? >80/90sec?
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
With an off-duty cop telling him to go easy on him and cut it out. That's probably gonna be hard to explain away in court. 
 
As an aside, that interview with the shoeless and shirtless aussie guys is exceptional!

Godder

This one was tailor made for the provocation defense.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="579015" data-time="1463020983">
<div>
 
Sitting on some numpty until the cops arrive, or giving him a smack round the ears, or bumping his head into a wall while waiting for the cops is much, much different to killing someone you have chased for 400m...
 
How long would the average joe take to run 400m? >80/90sec?
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I'd back you to be in the 60-70 bracket TR :hi:
 
But yes, internet fame for those two Ozzies, hopefully a lifetime supply of "pluggers" too.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="aucklandwarlord" data-cid="579056" data-time="1463030754">
<div>
With an off-duty cop telling him to go easy on him and cut it out. That's probably gonna be hard to explain away in court. 
 
As an aside, that interview with the shoeless and shirtless aussie guys is exceptional!
</div>
</blockquote>
 
This is an odd point. Why didn't the cop intervene? If he was on duty surely he would have and even off duty - well, aren't police never really off duty? I'd imagine he will have some questions to answer.

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="578959" data-time="1463015721">
<div>
Contrast this story with those drunk louts foiling that Oporto robbery a couple months back

Drunk louts = true blue aussie heroes, world wide fame!
 
Is the difference here just general fitness? Aussie hero had too many pies so couldn't catch up and hold the oporto thief.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Fat pissed idiot calling for people to call the cops while his mate right next to him is busy recording everything on his smartphone. In portrait mode like a fucking retard.
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="579005" data-time="1463019407">
<div>
But its a stressful situation so any weird shit could happen.
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</blockquote>
 
True, but the test is what a reasonable person would do. Burying people isn't reasonable. Neither is chasing someone for four hundred metres so that you can bash them and choke them to death. The danger to life and property has long since passed.

The Silver Fern

Defending your home