All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
-
Peak Fern this thread Tougher to read than the game was to watch and it was a bloody hard watch.
First up. Congratulations to Ireland. You owned us from the 1st - 80th minutes. An AB escape would have been a travesty. Played with passion, power and positive intent and beat us up all over the park.
Those noting Ireland have beaten is in 3/5 are fixating on how much we have declined and ignoring how much Ireland has improved. Ireland have always been up for the contest but have always run out of legs / ideas. This is a golden era for Irish rugby and we should acknowledge that. This Ireland side would have given it to far better AB teams than they one they faced yesterday.
Reading the thread there does seem to be a fair bit of revisionism going on. I don't remember there being that many complaints about the team selection when it was announced. The same was true ahead of our loss to the Boks too. Most Ferners seemed to think the team chosen was the best available.
Well my thought as the match unfolded was (apart from Fuck we could be in for a record hiding) that it was going to be impossible to come up with 3 names to nominate for AB player of the match. Actually that's been true for a while. I haven't picked three 'stars' all tour. I think we need to accept that the players in this squad aren't all that good. Certainly not aa good as they think they are.
Fuck we were dumb. Obviously the training sessions don't focus on the mental skills. Is Enoka still involved? The backline played like so many teams the AB's have bossed over the years, panicky clearances interspersed with shovelling it on until we run out of space.
However it's hard for any backline to shine when their pack is getting owned. Ireland were all over us in every facet. I can't think of any AB who would break into the Irish side based on that tests performances.
I don't think a change in coaches would make that much difference TBH - and you'd have to have a massive ego to believe that you could fix things overnight. That wasn't The Fields of Athenry ringing round the ground. It was the sound of chickens coming home to roost.
Positives ummm We know the scale of the problem and we know who isn't up for the job. Solutions? Short term. - play people in their natural positions. Instill in them that test footy is an uncompromising battlefield and sometimes trench warfare is the only answer. Make people off and on the field accountable and stop making fucking excuses. Cherish possession as clearly we aren't good enough to dominate it. Realise that feeding off other sides mistakes is yesterday's chip paper especially when you're not good enough to force those mistakes. Keep it simple. Respect the opposition. You may be the AB's but that doesn't instill fear any more and it certainly doesn't give you a god given right to win or play off the cuff razzle dazzle.
You're simply not that good.
Fucking pray we face the bad French and not the good ones
Don't let yourselves down. It'll be a long summer if you can't look yourself in the mirror.
-
Peak Fern this thread Tougher to read than the game was to watch and it was a bloody hard watch.
First up. Congratulations to Ireland. You owned us from the 1st - 80th minutes. An AB escape would have been a travesty. Played with passion, power and positive intent and beat us up all over the park.
Those noting Ireland have beaten is in 3/5 are fixating on how much we have declined and ignoring how much Ireland has improved. Ireland have always been up for the contest but have always run out of legs / ideas. This is a golden era for Irish rugby and we should acknowledge that. This Ireland side would have given it to far better AB teams than they one they faced yesterday.
Reading the thread there does seem to be a fair bit of revisionism going on. I don't remember there being that many complaints about the team selection when it was announced. The same was true ahead of our loss to the Boks too. Most Ferners seemed to think the team chosen was the best available.
Well my thought as the match unfolded was (apart from Fuck we could be in for a record hiding) that it was going to be impossible to come up with 3 names to nominate for AB player of the match. Actually that's been true for a while. I haven't picked three 'stars' all tour. I think we need to accept that the players in this squad aren't all that good. Certainly not aa good as they think they are.
Fuck we were dumb. Obviously the training sessions don't focus on the mental skills. Is Enoka still involved? The backline played like so many teams the AB's have bossed over the years, panicky clearances interspersed with shovelling it on until we run out of space.
However it's hard for any backline to shine when their pack is getting owned. Ireland were all over us in every facet. I can't think of any AB who would break into the Irish side based on that tests performances.
I don't think a change in coaches would make that much difference TBH - and you'd have to have a massive ego to believe that you could fix things overnight. That wasn't The Fields of Athenry ringing round the ground. It was the sound of chickens coming home to roost.
Positives ummm We know the scale of the problem and we know who isn't up for the job. Solutions? Short term. - play people in their natural positions. Instill in them that test footy is an uncompromising battlefield and sometimes trench warfare is the only answer. Make people off and on the field accountable and stop making fucking excuses. Cherish possession as clearly we aren't good enough to dominate it. Realise that feeding off other sides mistakes is yesterday's chip paper especially when you're not good enough to force those mistakes. Keep it simple. Respect the opposition. You may be the AB's but that doesn't instill fear any more and it certainly doesn't give you a god given right to win or play off the cuff razzle dazzle.
You're simply not that good.
Fucking pray we face the bad French and not the good ones
Don't let yourselves down. It'll be a long summer if you can't look yourself in the mirror.
@dogmeat said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I think we need to accept that the players in this squad aren't all that good. Certainly not aa good as they think they are.
How do you know what they think of themselves? Are you a mind reader? I've not seen any indication that players are full of themselves. I see no arrogance at all.
Fuck we were dumb. Obviously the training sessions don't focus on the mental skills. Is Enoka still involved?
Yes, Enoka is still there.
Respect the opposition. You may be the AB's but that doesn't instill fear any more and it certainly doesn't give you a god given right to win or play off the cuff razzle dazzle.
You're simply not that good.
Again, where do you get the idea from that they don't respect the opposition or that they think they have a "god given right to win". I see plenty of mistakes, or just players being overpowered, outrun etc. I don't see complacency or arrogance.
If anything, your post breathes condescension.
-
Peak Fern this thread Tougher to read than the game was to watch and it was a bloody hard watch.
First up. Congratulations to Ireland. You owned us from the 1st - 80th minutes. An AB escape would have been a travesty. Played with passion, power and positive intent and beat us up all over the park.
Those noting Ireland have beaten is in 3/5 are fixating on how much we have declined and ignoring how much Ireland has improved. Ireland have always been up for the contest but have always run out of legs / ideas. This is a golden era for Irish rugby and we should acknowledge that. This Ireland side would have given it to far better AB teams than they one they faced yesterday.
Reading the thread there does seem to be a fair bit of revisionism going on. I don't remember there being that many complaints about the team selection when it was announced. The same was true ahead of our loss to the Boks too. Most Ferners seemed to think the team chosen was the best available.
Well my thought as the match unfolded was (apart from Fuck we could be in for a record hiding) that it was going to be impossible to come up with 3 names to nominate for AB player of the match. Actually that's been true for a while. I haven't picked three 'stars' all tour. I think we need to accept that the players in this squad aren't all that good. Certainly not aa good as they think they are.
Fuck we were dumb. Obviously the training sessions don't focus on the mental skills. Is Enoka still involved? The backline played like so many teams the AB's have bossed over the years, panicky clearances interspersed with shovelling it on until we run out of space.
However it's hard for any backline to shine when their pack is getting owned. Ireland were all over us in every facet. I can't think of any AB who would break into the Irish side based on that tests performances.
I don't think a change in coaches would make that much difference TBH - and you'd have to have a massive ego to believe that you could fix things overnight. That wasn't The Fields of Athenry ringing round the ground. It was the sound of chickens coming home to roost.
Positives ummm We know the scale of the problem and we know who isn't up for the job. Solutions? Short term. - play people in their natural positions. Instill in them that test footy is an uncompromising battlefield and sometimes trench warfare is the only answer. Make people off and on the field accountable and stop making fucking excuses. Cherish possession as clearly we aren't good enough to dominate it. Realise that feeding off other sides mistakes is yesterday's chip paper especially when you're not good enough to force those mistakes. Keep it simple. Respect the opposition. You may be the AB's but that doesn't instill fear any more and it certainly doesn't give you a god given right to win or play off the cuff razzle dazzle.
You're simply not that good.
Fucking pray we face the bad French and not the good ones
Don't let yourselves down. It'll be a long summer if you can't look yourself in the mirror.
-
Peak Fern this thread Tougher to read than the game was to watch and it was a bloody hard watch.
First up. Congratulations to Ireland. You owned us from the 1st - 80th minutes. An AB escape would have been a travesty. Played with passion, power and positive intent and beat us up all over the park.
Those noting Ireland have beaten is in 3/5 are fixating on how much we have declined and ignoring how much Ireland has improved. Ireland have always been up for the contest but have always run out of legs / ideas. This is a golden era for Irish rugby and we should acknowledge that. This Ireland side would have given it to far better AB teams than they one they faced yesterday.
Reading the thread there does seem to be a fair bit of revisionism going on. I don't remember there being that many complaints about the team selection when it was announced. The same was true ahead of our loss to the Boks too. Most Ferners seemed to think the team chosen was the best available.
Well my thought as the match unfolded was (apart from Fuck we could be in for a record hiding) that it was going to be impossible to come up with 3 names to nominate for AB player of the match. Actually that's been true for a while. I haven't picked three 'stars' all tour. I think we need to accept that the players in this squad aren't all that good. Certainly not aa good as they think they are.
Fuck we were dumb. Obviously the training sessions don't focus on the mental skills. Is Enoka still involved? The backline played like so many teams the AB's have bossed over the years, panicky clearances interspersed with shovelling it on until we run out of space.
However it's hard for any backline to shine when their pack is getting owned. Ireland were all over us in every facet. I can't think of any AB who would break into the Irish side based on that tests performances.
I don't think a change in coaches would make that much difference TBH - and you'd have to have a massive ego to believe that you could fix things overnight. That wasn't The Fields of Athenry ringing round the ground. It was the sound of chickens coming home to roost.
Positives ummm We know the scale of the problem and we know who isn't up for the job. Solutions? Short term. - play people in their natural positions. Instill in them that test footy is an uncompromising battlefield and sometimes trench warfare is the only answer. Make people off and on the field accountable and stop making fucking excuses. Cherish possession as clearly we aren't good enough to dominate it. Realise that feeding off other sides mistakes is yesterday's chip paper especially when you're not good enough to force those mistakes. Keep it simple. Respect the opposition. You may be the AB's but that doesn't instill fear any more and it certainly doesn't give you a god given right to win or play off the cuff razzle dazzle.
You're simply not that good.
Fucking pray we face the bad French and not the good ones
Don't let yourselves down. It'll be a long summer if you can't look yourself in the mirror.
@dogmeat said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I don't think a change in coaches would make that much difference TBH - and you'd have to have a massive ego to believe that you could fix things overnight.
Have to disagree here. A different coaching regime can do wonders and it can change pretty quickly. Ireland managed to turn around a thumping in the QF with a different game plan under different coaches, while carrying virtually the same team.
When your backline shows no subtlety or innovation whatsoever and just keeps on shoveling the ball, that's on the attack coach. When the defensive line is so passive and gives the opposition the time and space that they shouldn't have, that's on the defence coach. When the game plan is to kick away most of the ball that you have, that's on Foster.
-
All I can really say from this game is that we were completely outgunned by an impressive Irish side. NO EXCUSES.
A few players that aren't cutting it for me -
Codie Taylor - he just lacks any real physicality at test level, from what I've seen this year I would rather throw Samisoni into that starting role, he just looks better suited when we are playing against bigger sides and it's quite noticeable when he's not there.
Brodie Rettalick - looks like a shell of his former self but I guess there aren't too many more options with Barrett back in NZ. Really need to grow some depth in this position.
Loose forwards: as already mentioned on this forum, the mix was probably off. We needed a bigger ball carrier at 6 to complement Dalton and Ardie. I don't think Blackadder played badly but the selectors probably missed the mark on that combo for a bigger Irish pack.
David Havili: unfortunately he continues to miss the mark as an International 12. I rate his skillset but he just gets smoked almost every time he tries to crash it up. Definitely need to find a bigger inside centre quick fast.
Onwards and upwards though. Bring on France.
-
I think we have the players. The problem seems to be the same old shite since 2016 and the game has moved on. If I was a Wobs fan, even losing, I would see something new being tried. The Irish and French are steaming ahead. As an AB fan, we are seeing a slight decline year after year but this is being papered over by the brilliance of some of the players and the ABs ability to be flat-track bullies (always have been, even the great teams). Coupled to this is the complete lack of innovation or any new approach, good new players yes, but they are going into the same old systems and approach. It is the staleness of the last years of the Hansen era. This is "Hansen light."
-
@nostrildamus Blackadder should have been subbed.
I can't believe that Christie wasn't brought on to provide something different.
@bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus Blackadder should have been subbed.
I can't believe that Christie wasn't brought on to provide something different.
I think they thought TJP's leadership and tackling was more important than fast delivery as the ABs only had a little possession anyway. But given the gruelling ordeal I don't understand why they didn't refresh with the bench ASAP.
-
I think we have the players. The problem seems to be the same old shite since 2016 and the game has moved on. If I was a Wobs fan, even losing, I would see something new being tried. The Irish and French are steaming ahead. As an AB fan, we are seeing a slight decline year after year but this is being papered over by the brilliance of some of the players and the ABs ability to be flat-track bullies (always have been, even the great teams). Coupled to this is the complete lack of innovation or any new approach, good new players yes, but they are going into the same old systems and approach. It is the staleness of the last years of the Hansen era. This is "Hansen light."
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I think we have the players. The problem seems to be the same old shite since 2016 and the game has moved on. If I was a Wobs fan, even losing, I would see something new being tried. The Irish and French are steaming ahead. As an AB fan, we are seeing a slight decline year after year but this is being papered over by the brilliance of some of the players and the ABs ability to be flat-track bullies (always have been, even the great teams). Coupled to this is the complete lack of innovation or any new approach, good new players yes, but they are going into the same old systems and approach. It is the staleness of the last years of the Hansen era. This is "Hansen light."
I would happily have lower scores against the weaker sides if we competed better against the stronger sides.
-
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore player and brain drain is a natural result of our success. Few would argue that we let anyone of these players go and that they would walk into the ABs. But I think all of us would agree we are not playing to our optimal best
This is very true but it speaks to issues with our coaching and selection policies - the fact that guys who couldn’t “cut it “ in NZ can go overseas, improve their games and then out play their “better” opposite numbers in black.
@junior said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore player and brain drain is a natural result of our success. Few would argue that we let anyone of these players go and that they would walk into the ABs. But I think all of us would agree we are not playing to our optimal best
This is very true but it speaks to issues with our coaching and selection policies - the fact that guys who couldn’t “cut it “ in NZ can go overseas, improve their games and then out play their “better” opposite numbers in black.
Although for every Lowe there are probably 5 others that haven’t gone on or just performed as expected.
Sometimes it’s just opportunity and circumstance. The work ethic and talent were always there and because they moved overseas they got a chance.
-
I'm thought @Bones was pretty clever setting up some auto-posts to throw us off the fact that he is actually James Lowe
@voodoo said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I'm thought @Bones was pretty clever setting up some auto-posts to throw us off the fact that he is actually James Lowe
He looks more swarthy and middle eastern on FB but then again it could be a fake profile.
-
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@majorrage
You either want Foster gone or embrace failure.Well, let's just hope we aren't saying the same thing in two year's time with a new coach. The issues are much deeper than that in NZ Rugby - just look at how the Black Ferns were mauled.
-
All I can really say from this game is that we were completely outgunned by an impressive Irish side. NO EXCUSES.
A few players that aren't cutting it for me -
Codie Taylor - he just lacks any real physicality at test level, from what I've seen this year I would rather throw Samisoni into that starting role, he just looks better suited when we are playing against bigger sides and it's quite noticeable when he's not there.
Brodie Rettalick - looks like a shell of his former self but I guess there aren't too many more options with Barrett back in NZ. Really need to grow some depth in this position.
Loose forwards: as already mentioned on this forum, the mix was probably off. We needed a bigger ball carrier at 6 to complement Dalton and Ardie. I don't think Blackadder played badly but the selectors probably missed the mark on that combo for a bigger Irish pack.
David Havili: unfortunately he continues to miss the mark as an International 12. I rate his skillset but he just gets smoked almost every time he tries to crash it up. Definitely need to find a bigger inside centre quick fast.
Onwards and upwards though. Bring on France.
@canes4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
All I can really say from this game is that we were completely outgunned by an impressive Irish side. NO EXCUSES.
A few players that aren't cutting it for me -
Codie Taylor - he just lacks any real physicality at test level, from what I've seen this year I would rather throw Samisoni into that starting role, he just looks better suited when we are playing against bigger sides and it's quite noticeable when he's not there.
Brodie Rettalick - looks like a shell of his former self but I guess there aren't too many more options with Barrett back in NZ. Really need to grow some depth in this position.
Loose forwards: as already mentioned on this forum, the mix was probably off. We needed a bigger ball carrier at 6 to complement Dalton and Ardie. I don't think Blackadder played badly but the selectors probably missed the mark on that combo for a bigger Irish pack.
David Havili: unfortunately he continues to miss the mark as an International 12. I rate his skillset but he just gets smoked almost every time he tries to crash it up. Definitely need to find a bigger inside centre quick fast.
At this stage, I wonder if it's worthwhile dumping some of the old guard for newer talent against France. Nothing to lose and might generate a bit of hunger and freshness in the team. Something drastic to focus minds and, let's face it, Foster hasn't got much to lose.
Onwards and upwards though. Bring on France.
We're going onwards (except on the pitch) but upwards?
-
@canes4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
All I can really say from this game is that we were completely outgunned by an impressive Irish side. NO EXCUSES.
A few players that aren't cutting it for me -
Codie Taylor - he just lacks any real physicality at test level, from what I've seen this year I would rather throw Samisoni into that starting role, he just looks better suited when we are playing against bigger sides and it's quite noticeable when he's not there.
Brodie Rettalick - looks like a shell of his former self but I guess there aren't too many more options with Barrett back in NZ. Really need to grow some depth in this position.
Loose forwards: as already mentioned on this forum, the mix was probably off. We needed a bigger ball carrier at 6 to complement Dalton and Ardie. I don't think Blackadder played badly but the selectors probably missed the mark on that combo for a bigger Irish pack.
David Havili: unfortunately he continues to miss the mark as an International 12. I rate his skillset but he just gets smoked almost every time he tries to crash it up. Definitely need to find a bigger inside centre quick fast.
At this stage, I wonder if it's worthwhile dumping some of the old guard for newer talent against France. Nothing to lose and might generate a bit of hunger and freshness in the team. Something drastic to focus minds and, let's face it, Foster hasn't got much to lose.
Onwards and upwards though. Bring on France.
We're going onwards (except on the pitch) but upwards?
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
At this stage, I wonder if it's worthwhile dumping some of the old guard for newer talent against France. Nothing to lose and might generate a bit of hunger and freshness in the team. Something drastic to focus minds and, let's face it, Foster hasn't got much to lose.
I think they're going to try and play fresh people. So Cane/Jacobsen/Ioane loosies, new frnot row, any lock who can walk, and quite a different backline.
-
This from the poster Highlander on Roar is one of the best analyses I’ve seen of what’s ailing the ABs.
“Somewhere deep in the heart of this coaching group and squad of players is a belief that they can run and outscore anyone, no matter the circumstances, no matter what the opposition bring.
“It’s misguided, it’s entitled and it’s just downright wrong. We don’t need to follow the years old rules of earning the right to play, we are different.”
-
This from the poster Highlander on Roar is one of the best analyses I’ve seen of what’s ailing the ABs.
“Somewhere deep in the heart of this coaching group and squad of players is a belief that they can run and outscore anyone, no matter the circumstances, no matter what the opposition bring.
“It’s misguided, it’s entitled and it’s just downright wrong. We don’t need to follow the years old rules of earning the right to play, we are different.”
@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
-
@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
Which is perfectly in synch with what I saw.
I think one of the worst things that happened to us was the score that had us in front at half time. Gave us belief as per above, when what was needed was something else.
Probably not something we were capable of to be honest.
-
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
Which is perfectly in synch with what I saw.
I think one of the worst things that happened to us was the score that had us in front at half time. Gave us belief as per above, when what was needed was something else.
Probably not something we were capable of to be honest.
@majorrage me too, been saying it all season, every touch of the ball they try and do something highlight reel worthy rather than do the basics, build pressure and create a real opportunity to do something highlight reel worthy
-
@canes4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
All I can really say from this game is that we were completely outgunned by an impressive Irish side. NO EXCUSES.
A few players that aren't cutting it for me -
Codie Taylor - he just lacks any real physicality at test level, from what I've seen this year I would rather throw Samisoni into that starting role, he just looks better suited when we are playing against bigger sides and it's quite noticeable when he's not there.
Brodie Rettalick - looks like a shell of his former self but I guess there aren't too many more options with Barrett back in NZ. Really need to grow some depth in this position.
Loose forwards: as already mentioned on this forum, the mix was probably off. We needed a bigger ball carrier at 6 to complement Dalton and Ardie. I don't think Blackadder played badly but the selectors probably missed the mark on that combo for a bigger Irish pack.
David Havili: unfortunately he continues to miss the mark as an International 12. I rate his skillset but he just gets smoked almost every time he tries to crash it up. Definitely need to find a bigger inside centre quick fast.
At this stage, I wonder if it's worthwhile dumping some of the old guard for newer talent against France. Nothing to lose and might generate a bit of hunger and freshness in the team. Something drastic to focus minds and, let's face it, Foster hasn't got much to lose.
Onwards and upwards though. Bring on France.
We're going onwards (except on the pitch) but upwards?
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@canes4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
All I can really say from this game is that we were completely outgunned by an impressive Irish side. NO EXCUSES.
A few players that aren't cutting it for me -
Codie Taylor - he just lacks any real physicality at test level, from what I've seen this year I would rather throw Samisoni into that starting role, he just looks better suited when we are playing against bigger sides and it's quite noticeable when he's not there.
Brodie Rettalick - looks like a shell of his former self but I guess there aren't too many more options with Barrett back in NZ. Really need to grow some depth in this position.
Loose forwards: as already mentioned on this forum, the mix was probably off. We needed a bigger ball carrier at 6 to complement Dalton and Ardie. I don't think Blackadder played badly but the selectors probably missed the mark on that combo for a bigger Irish pack.
David Havili: unfortunately he continues to miss the mark as an International 12. I rate his skillset but he just gets smoked almost every time he tries to crash it up. Definitely need to find a bigger inside centre quick fast.
At this stage, I wonder if it's worthwhile dumping some of the old guard for newer talent against France. Nothing to lose and might generate a bit of hunger and freshness in the team. Something drastic to focus minds and, let's face it, Foster hasn't got much to lose.
Onwards and upwards though. Bring on France.
We're going onwards (except on the pitch) but upwards?
he won't want to lose the learnings.
-
@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
An assumption that marries well with the evidence. Players playing out of position. A coaching group talking about lessons that never materialise.
Assisted in no small measure by those holding a flame for certain players. Almost anyone with two eyes can see Ardie shirks the hard work come ruck time - that's been a feature of his entire career. And DMac is a fucking liability.
I could go on, but the article has already been written.
