All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour
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@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
What have we learned from tonight?
- Our tight 5 is not what it once was, but if we play direct we can still compete
- Loose forwards as currently constructed are too loose
- Without Aaron Smith we are lost
- RM is not a test 10 we can depend on. Yet. Maybe not even
- The Havili experiment is a fail
- Tupaea and Ioane could be a go in MF. Clint certainly looks like he has the hard edge we gave lacked and could be the 12 we need to pair with
- Jordan has one wing spot locked down, and Jordie had a very good tour. That leaves one wing spot up for grabs
- Foster doesn't have it
Pick and go used to be a key strength of NZ forward play. Between 40 and 60 mins, NZ forwards used the pick and go to maximum effect.
The other observation I have is two-fold - applying pressure and penalties. The ABs are playing too much in the wrong part of the pitch. The tactical kicking game has been poor for a while. This doesn't apply pressure to the opposition. And when NZ do get down and play in the opposition third, they give away cheap penalties that again relieves pressure.
Since when did ABs kick bombs in MF so much?
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
What have we learned from tonight?
- Our tight 5 is not what it once was, but if we play direct we can still compete
- Loose forwards as currently constructed are too loose
- Without Aaron Smith we are lost
- RM is not a test 10 we can depend on. Yet. Maybe not even
- The Havili experiment is a fail
- Tupaea and Ioane could be a go in MF. Clint certainly looks like he has the hard edge we gave lacked and could be the 12 we need to pair with
- Jordan has one wing spot locked down, and Jordie had a very good tour. That leaves one wing spot up for grabs
- Foster doesn't have it
Pick and go used to be a key strength of NZ forward play. Between 40 and 60 mins, NZ forwards used the pick and go to maximum effect.
The other observation I have is two-fold - applying pressure and penalties. The ABs are playing too much in the wrong part of the pitch. The tactical kicking game has been poor for a while. This doesn't apply pressure to the opposition. And when NZ do get down and play in the opposition third, they give away cheap penalties that again relieves pressure.
Since when did ABs kick bombs in MF so much?
Are they trying to create broken field opportunities and disorganise set defences? It seems a low risk play.
Rather put the ball in behind the defence and play for territory. Force France to win their lineout ball (ABs had some joy disrupting) or kick it away.
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@damo said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@damo said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
One bad year when we lose 3 games and all of sudden the structures we have that have been so successful for so long are defective.?
Therein may lie the problem - the structures may no longer be free of considerable defects.
There seems a real lack of players who can keep their cool under pressure at Test level. Mo'unga and Havili may look like a million dollars at SR level but really, really struggle under pressure at Test level - as we have seen tonite and in other matches. Ball handling skills in the tight 5 seem to have dropped away as well.
But one year of mediocre results is not enough evidence to support the hypothesis. We are at the end of a long year, been away on a tour since god knows how long (since the 3rd Bledisloe in Perth) . In that tour we lost 3 times, and won 7.
No team in any sport can win every game every year every time.
The Green Bay Packers have the highest winning percentage in all games since 1921. Their win rate is 0.573.
What about last year?
@anonymous said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@damo said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@damo said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
One bad year when we lose 3 games and all of sudden the structures we have that have been so successful for so long are defective.?
Therein may lie the problem - the structures may no longer be free of considerable defects.
There seems a real lack of players who can keep their cool under pressure at Test level. Mo'unga and Havili may look like a million dollars at SR level but really, really struggle under pressure at Test level - as we have seen tonite and in other matches. Ball handling skills in the tight 5 seem to have dropped away as well.
But one year of mediocre results is not enough evidence to support the hypothesis. We are at the end of a long year, been away on a tour since god knows how long (since the 3rd Bledisloe in Perth) . In that tour we lost 3 times, and won 7.
No team in any sport can win every game every year every time.
The Green Bay Packers have the highest winning percentage in all games since 1921. Their win rate is 0.573.
What about last year?
That was worse than mediocre
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We've been here before. I remember the pain of previous dips, this one is tough after a golden run like We've had. Gonna be hard for Blacks fans for a while
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
We've been here before. I remember the pain of previous dips, this one is tough after a golden run like We've had. Gonna be hard for Blacks fans for a while
It'l be a slow process and require looking at what's going wrong across the board - and not thinking there's an easy solution or messiah coach which is going to recreate 2011-2015 in a few months.
There's a worrying lack of depth in key positions and we are going to have to get used to having players who aren't superstars or world-class but do a decent job and stay focussed until we develop talent at lower levels.
In many ways the writing has been on the wall since about 2016 and not just at AB level - it's pretty clear the head honchos have taken their eye off the ball in too any ways.
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@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
All you Foster fans enjoy that BS more to come
Just because people don't think Jesus Robertson is the answer to everything, doesn't mean they're Foster fans. Get a fucking grip.
I don’t give a flying Fuck who get the job just not this lot of clowns,
So get a fucking grip .
Ok but Robertson goodMickey Mouse would be better than the clown circus.
Just Change the coaches anybody has to be better.Now we're talking. Opposing Robertson doesn't equal Foster fans. Having patience doesn't equal Foster fans.
I just want the ABs to win to be honest ,just get some coaches in who can turn this around,
I can’t handle 2 more years of this shit.@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
All you Foster fans enjoy that BS more to come
Just because people don't think Jesus Robertson is the answer to everything, doesn't mean they're Foster fans. Get a fucking grip.
I don’t give a flying Fuck who get the job just not this lot of clowns,
So get a fucking grip . Ok but Robertson goodMickey Mouse would be better than the clown circus.
Just Change the coaches anybody has to be better.Now we're talking. Opposing Robertson doesn't equal Foster fans. Having patience doesn't equal Foster fans.
I just want the ABs to win to be honest ,just get some coaches in who can turn this around,
I can’t handle 2 more years of this shit.Fucking eh
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@number9 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Let's just be honest we were out muscled up front by the Irish and now the French. We lack mobility. Our props are saving themselves for the scrums and line outs and are non-existqnt around the paddock.
French and Irish tight 5 are active and mobile.
Yup. Battle lost up front
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@number9 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Let's just be honest we were out muscled up front by the Irish and now the French. We lack mobility. Our props are saving themselves for the scrums and line outs and are non-existqnt around the paddock.
French and Irish tight 5 are active and mobile.
Yup. Battle lost up front
I reckon, like against Ireland the coaching team and moody would disagree
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@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
What have we learned from tonight?
- Our tight 5 is not what it once was, but if we play direct we can still compete
- Loose forwards as currently constructed are too loose
- Without Aaron Smith we are lost
- RM is not a test 10 we can depend on. Yet. Maybe not even
- The Havili experiment is a fail
- Tupaea and Ioane could be a go in MF. Clint certainly looks like he has the hard edge we gave lacked and could be the 12 we need to pair with
- Jordan has one wing spot locked down, and Jordie had a very good tour. That leaves one wing spot up for grabs
- Foster doesn't have it
Pick and go used to be a key strength of NZ forward play. Between 40 and 60 mins, NZ forwards used the pick and go to maximum effect.
The other observation I have is two-fold - applying pressure and penalties. The ABs are playing too much in the wrong part of the pitch. The tactical kicking game has been poor for a while. This doesn't apply pressure to the opposition. And when NZ do get down and play in the opposition third, they give away cheap penalties that again relieves pressure.
Since when did ABs kick bombs in MF so much?
Are they trying to create broken field opportunities and disorganise set defences? It seems a low risk play.
Rather put the ball in behind the defence and play for territory. Force France to win their lineout ball (ABs had some joy disrupting) or kick it away.
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
What have we learned from tonight?
- Our tight 5 is not what it once was, but if we play direct we can still compete
- Loose forwards as currently constructed are too loose
- Without Aaron Smith we are lost
- RM is not a test 10 we can depend on. Yet. Maybe not even
- The Havili experiment is a fail
- Tupaea and Ioane could be a go in MF. Clint certainly looks like he has the hard edge we gave lacked and could be the 12 we need to pair with
- Jordan has one wing spot locked down, and Jordie had a very good tour. That leaves one wing spot up for grabs
- Foster doesn't have it
Pick and go used to be a key strength of NZ forward play. Between 40 and 60 mins, NZ forwards used the pick and go to maximum effect.
The other observation I have is two-fold - applying pressure and penalties. The ABs are playing too much in the wrong part of the pitch. The tactical kicking game has been poor for a while. This doesn't apply pressure to the opposition. And when NZ do get down and play in the opposition third, they give away cheap penalties that again relieves pressure.
Since when did ABs kick bombs in MF so much?
Are they trying to create broken field opportunities and disorganise set defences? It seems a low risk play.
Rather put the ball in behind the defence and play for territory. Force France to win their lineout ball (ABs had some joy disrupting) or kick it away.
The French were waiting for it and made us pay. Like we used to do
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@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@number9 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Let's just be honest we were out muscled up front by the Irish and now the French. We lack mobility. Our props are saving themselves for the scrums and line outs and are non-existqnt around the paddock.
French and Irish tight 5 are active and mobile.
Yup. Battle lost up front
I reckon, like against Ireland the coaching team and moody would disagree
@machpants said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@number9 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Let's just be honest we were out muscled up front by the Irish and now the French. We lack mobility. Our props are saving themselves for the scrums and line outs and are non-existqnt around the paddock.
French and Irish tight 5 are active and mobile.
Yup. Battle lost up front
I reckon, like against Ireland the coaching team and moody would disagree
That there is the problem
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@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
All you Foster fans enjoy that BS more to come
Just because people don't think Jesus Robertson is the answer to everything, doesn't mean they're Foster fans. Get a fucking grip.
I don’t give a flying Fuck who get the job just not this lot of clowns,
So get a fucking grip . Ok but Robertson goodMickey Mouse would be better than the clown circus.
Just Change the coaches anybody has to be better.Now we're talking. Opposing Robertson doesn't equal Foster fans. Having patience doesn't equal Foster fans.
I just want the ABs to win to be honest ,just get some coaches in who can turn this around,
I can’t handle 2 more years of this shit.Fucking eh
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
All you Foster fans enjoy that BS more to come
Just because people don't think Jesus Robertson is the answer to everything, doesn't mean they're Foster fans. Get a fucking grip.
I don’t give a flying Fuck who get the job just not this lot of clowns,
So get a fucking grip . Ok but Robertson goodMickey Mouse would be better than the clown circus.
Just Change the coaches anybody has to be better.Now we're talking. Opposing Robertson doesn't equal Foster fans. Having patience doesn't equal Foster fans.
I just want the ABs to win to be honest ,just get some coaches in who can turn this around,
I can’t handle 2 more years of this shit.Fucking eh
A Hammer Holland duo. You haven't seen bad yet
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@number9 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Let's just be honest we were out muscled up front by the Irish and now the French. We lack mobility. Our props are saving themselves for the scrums and line outs and are non-existqnt around the paddock.
French and Irish tight 5 are active and mobile.
Yup. Battle lost up front
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@number9 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Let's just be honest we were out muscled up front by the Irish and now the French. We lack mobility. Our props are saving themselves for the scrums and line outs and are non-existqnt around the paddock.
French and Irish tight 5 are active and mobile.
Yup. Battle lost up front
I think the mobility thing is part of the problem. AB forwards are very mobile and athletic, but not powerful enough against other teams. Are you willing to sacrifice a bit of the former for some more of the latter?
ST had a great 30 mins. If Aumua could come to the table, ABs have got a seriously good 1-2 hooker punch.
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@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
All you Foster fans enjoy that BS more to come
Just because people don't think Jesus Robertson is the answer to everything, doesn't mean they're Foster fans. Get a fucking grip.
I don’t give a flying Fuck who get the job just not this lot of clowns,
So get a fucking grip . Ok but Robertson goodMickey Mouse would be better than the clown circus.
Just Change the coaches anybody has to be better.Now we're talking. Opposing Robertson doesn't equal Foster fans. Having patience doesn't equal Foster fans.
I just want the ABs to win to be honest ,just get some coaches in who can turn this around,
I can’t handle 2 more years of this shit.Fucking eh
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
All you Foster fans enjoy that BS more to come
Just because people don't think Jesus Robertson is the answer to everything, doesn't mean they're Foster fans. Get a fucking grip.
I don’t give a flying Fuck who get the job just not this lot of clowns,
So get a fucking grip . Ok but Robertson goodMickey Mouse would be better than the clown circus.
Just Change the coaches anybody has to be better.Now we're talking. Opposing Robertson doesn't equal Foster fans. Having patience doesn't equal Foster fans.
I just want the ABs to win to be honest ,just get some coaches in who can turn this around,
I can’t handle 2 more years of this shit.Fucking eh
Stop it,that’s too far
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@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
We've been here before. I remember the pain of previous dips, this one is tough after a golden run like We've had. Gonna be hard for Blacks fans for a while
It'l be a slow process and require looking at what's going wrong across the board - and not thinking there's an easy solution or messiah coach which is going to recreate 2011-2015 in a few months.
There's a worrying lack of depth in key positions and we are going to have to get used to having players who aren't superstars or world-class but do a decent job and stay focussed until we develop talent at lower levels.
In many ways the writing has been on the wall since about 2016 and not just at AB level - it's pretty clear the head honchos have taken their eye off the ball in too any ways.
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
We've been here before. I remember the pain of previous dips, this one is tough after a golden run like We've had. Gonna be hard for Blacks fans for a while
It'l be a slow process and require looking at what's going wrong across the board - and not thinking there's an easy solution or messiah coach which is going to recreate 2011-2015 in a few months.
There's a worrying lack of depth in key positions and we are going to have to get used to having players who aren't superstars or world-class but do a decent job and stay focussed until we develop talent at lower levels.
In many ways the writing has been on the wall since about 2016 and not just at AB level - it's pretty clear the head honchos have taken their eye off the ball in too any ways.
You need some good u20 vintages to come through and some bolters from NPC and SR.
2022 is last chance really to inject fresh blood unless they are a standout.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@number9 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Let's just be honest we were out muscled up front by the Irish and now the French. We lack mobility. Our props are saving themselves for the scrums and line outs and are non-existqnt around the paddock.
French and Irish tight 5 are active and mobile.
Yup. Battle lost up front
I think the mobility thing is part of the problem. AB forwards are very mobile and athletic, but not powerful enough against other teams. Are you willing to sacrifice a bit of the former for some more of the latter?
ST had a great 30 mins. If Aumua could come to the table, ABs have got a seriously good 1-2 hooker punch.
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@number9 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Let's just be honest we were out muscled up front by the Irish and now the French. We lack mobility. Our props are saving themselves for the scrums and line outs and are non-existqnt around the paddock.
French and Irish tight 5 are active and mobile.
Yup. Battle lost up front
I think the mobility thing is part of the problem. AB forwards are very mobile and athletic, but not powerful enough against other teams. Are you willing to sacrifice a bit of the former for some more of the latter?
It's almost as if playing touch rugby in late summer doesn't create the type of athletes required for Test rugby in winter.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@number9 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Let's just be honest we were out muscled up front by the Irish and now the French. We lack mobility. Our props are saving themselves for the scrums and line outs and are non-existqnt around the paddock.
French and Irish tight 5 are active and mobile.
Yup. Battle lost up front
I think the mobility thing is part of the problem. AB forwards are very mobile and athletic, but not powerful enough against other teams. Are you willing to sacrifice a bit of the former for some more of the latter?
It's almost as if playing touch rugby in late summer doesn't create the type of athletes required for Test rugby in winter.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@number9 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Let's just be honest we were out muscled up front by the Irish and now the French. We lack mobility. Our props are saving themselves for the scrums and line outs and are non-existqnt around the paddock.
French and Irish tight 5 are active and mobile.
Yup. Battle lost up front
I think the mobility thing is part of the problem. AB forwards are very mobile and athletic, but not powerful enough against other teams. Are you willing to sacrifice a bit of the former for some more of the latter?
It's almost as if playing touch rugby in late summer doesn't create the type of athletes required for Test rugby in winter.
True
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This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
That just sounds like bad coaching all round
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I knew as soon as the Italy first half was over we were in trouble. I don’t remember seeing a dirt track team have less fun. That should have been a game where testing new combinations led to free flowing spectator friendly rugby. You can say Italy played their part as spoilers but I’d counter that by saying get fucked. It was fucking Italy! It highlighted a coaching teams inability to build. Foster and co seem like they want to maintain not innovate. Or more likely are scrambling to maintain and can not innovate.
There’s some flakey selections. I’ll start right at the top. Sam Cane was injured and had to pass the arm band on. However once your designated captain returns to the full test team against fucking France he remains out of the captaincy picture? For the record I prefer Whitelock. But that’s not the point. Cane was back. Telling the media that the coaching staff want to ease him in is hilarious. It’s fucking France, in France. There’s no easing in to that. You’re already there. What message does this send to the players? Especially a rag tag bunch like this. And it is. When your leadership, in the coaches box and on the field, is all over the shop. You are a rag tag bunch. You reap results like this. The message is “we are rudderless and we’ll see what happens”
Cheers Fozzy for helping a couple years ago but you need to get on your bike now.
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This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
