All Blacks 2021
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke halfbacks are yappy dickheads who ignore reality.
hahaha, fair point.
Slightly changed my username to the same one I have on another rugby forum.
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I agree the players need to be able to think for themselves, but if the coaches have a specific gameplan (however moronic) which maybe includes targeting certain players in certain areas of the field, then they are going that route more often than not, even when not on or the lower pay-off option.
Especially if they are trying to bed in a new pattern overall, otherwise what's the point of them having a gameplan, and then we sit here, beer in hand on the couch bitching about no plan b, when plan a, that is just wing it, isn't working.
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I agree the players need to be able to think for themselves, but if the coaches have a specific gameplan (however moronic) which maybe includes targeting certain players in certain areas of the field, then they are going that route more often than not, even when not on or the lower pay-off option.
Especially if they are trying to bed in a new pattern overall, otherwise what's the point of them having a gameplan, and then we sit here, beer in hand on the couch bitching about no plan b, when plan a, that is just wing it, isn't working.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
I agree the players need to be able to think for themselves, but if the coaches have a specific gameplan (however moronic) which maybe includes targeting certain players in certain areas of the field, then they are going that route more often than not, even when not on or the lower pay-off option.
Especially if they are trying to bed in a new pattern overall, otherwise what's the point of them having a gameplan, and then we sit here, beer in hand on the couch bitching about no plan b, when plan a, that is just wing it, isn't working.
I doubt the coaches ever have a real strict game plan, they will I know tell players after analysing games that there is a weakness here or there, but from what I have ever heard the players say, the coaches will lay out where they see strengths and weaknesses and mostly (I know it has been case in ABs) the senior playing group them do a lot of refining. Even in Chiefs for instance ALB will be the one doing a lot of getting timing of defence etc at training. I recall Tana Umaga saying that senior players suggested that coaches weren't even in dressing room in last while before tests, as the players preferred to concentrate on getting their plans finalised, also what Captain's run is for. Coaches are obviously very important and etc, but on game day probably more important at halftime to give an overview of what they can see going right or wrong. I hope we never get to where players are automatons and need to be told exactly when and where to kick etc, and forget how to play heads up rugby!
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
I agree the players need to be able to think for themselves, but if the coaches have a specific gameplan (however moronic) which maybe includes targeting certain players in certain areas of the field, then they are going that route more often than not, even when not on or the lower pay-off option.
Especially if they are trying to bed in a new pattern overall, otherwise what's the point of them having a gameplan, and then we sit here, beer in hand on the couch bitching about no plan b, when plan a, that is just wing it, isn't working.
I doubt the coaches ever have a real strict game plan, they will I know tell players after analysing games that there is a weakness here or there, but from what I have ever heard the players say, the coaches will lay out where they see strengths and weaknesses and mostly (I know it has been case in ABs) the senior playing group them do a lot of refining. Even in Chiefs for instance ALB will be the one doing a lot of getting timing of defence etc at training. I recall Tana Umaga saying that senior players suggested that coaches weren't even in dressing room in last while before tests, as the players preferred to concentrate on getting their plans finalised, also what Captain's run is for. Coaches are obviously very important and etc, but on game day probably more important at halftime to give an overview of what they can see going right or wrong. I hope we never get to where players are automatons and need to be told exactly when and where to kick etc, and forget how to play heads up rugby!
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
forget how to play heads up rugby
TBH I think thats exactly where we are at the moment, players are not seeing opportunities, or if they are, unable to exploit them for whatever reason.
This has to come back to coaching, belief in the systems and structure they are trying to play, and they will have a game plan, they will have free reign to play it as they see it while still in the parameters of the overall plan to breakdown the opposition, but thats the problem, we arent, the French test was a prime example of it.
Wayne Smith spoke of the red head blue head (I think those were the colours) with blue being cool/calm/calculated, red being, well, not those, I think we are too much red, not able to see opportunities, and make poor decisions, and instead of reverting to a more simplistic rugby we keep doing the same things, making the same mistakes.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
forget how to play heads up rugby
TBH I think thats exactly where we are at the moment, players are not seeing opportunities, or if they are, unable to exploit them for whatever reason.
This has to come back to coaching, belief in the systems and structure they are trying to play, and they will have a game plan, they will have free reign to play it as they see it while still in the parameters of the overall plan to breakdown the opposition, but thats the problem, we arent, the French test was a prime example of it.
Wayne Smith spoke of the red head blue head (I think those were the colours) with blue being cool/calm/calculated, red being, well, not those, I think we are too much red, not able to see opportunities, and make poor decisions, and instead of reverting to a more simplistic rugby we keep doing the same things, making the same mistakes.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
forget how to play heads up rugby
TBH I think thats exactly where we are at the moment, players are not seeing opportunities, or if they are, unable to exploit them for whatever reason.
This has to come back to coaching, belief in the systems and structure they are trying to play, and they will have a game plan, they will have free reign to play it as they see it while still in the parameters of the overall plan to breakdown the opposition, but thats the problem, we arent, the French test was a prime example of it.
Wayne Smith spoke of the red head blue head (I think those were the colours) with blue being cool/calm/calculated, red being, well, not those, I think we are too much red, not able to see opportunities, and make poor decisions, and instead of reverting to a more simplistic rugby we keep doing the same things, making the same mistakes.
Yeah, have to get our system/structures right, especially in defence, try & play in the oppositions half more than they play in ours & execute our set pieces well, then the players just play what's in front of them with good decision making & executing accurately... our forwards are not doing the hard yakka when we have possession going through phases, so our backs are not getting that much good front foot ball to attack with.
Exactly, it's about doing the basics well, not overcomplicating things & each player focusing on their own role, then you perform well as a team... really peeved me off when we played a shocker against Ireland, then repeated the same stupid mistakes against France, pointless if you don't learn from your mistakes.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke halfbacks are yappy dickheads who ignore reality.
Wonder if there are any half backs posting on this thread?
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God I was waiting for the “smith is no better than TJP chat to start”
The smith box kicks too much is so 2017, that hasn’t been a problem for years, yes he went through a phase where he was kicking away possession but like the pro he is he took that criticism and changed, you would be hard pressed to see him box kick now without at least one chaser knowing exactly what’s going on and the rest of the line coming up for the counter which means it is very much the game plan
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God I was waiting for the “smith is no better than TJP chat to start”
The smith box kicks too much is so 2017, that hasn’t been a problem for years, yes he went through a phase where he was kicking away possession but like the pro he is he took that criticism and changed, you would be hard pressed to see him box kick now without at least one chaser knowing exactly what’s going on and the rest of the line coming up for the counter which means it is very much the game plan
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
God I was waiting for the “smith is no better than TJP chat to start”
The smith box kicks too much is so 2017, that hasn’t been a problem for years, yes he went through a phase where he was kicking away possession but like the pro he is he took that criticism and changed, you would be hard pressed to see him box kick now without at least one chaser knowing exactly what’s going on and the rest of the line coming up for the counter which means it is very much the game plan
I hope we don't see that chat start. Smith no better than TJP that would be more of a Comical skit.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke halfbacks are yappy dickheads who ignore reality.
Wonder if there are any half backs posting on this thread?
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Funny thread. Would read again
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
forget how to play heads up rugby
TBH I think thats exactly where we are at the moment, players are not seeing opportunities, or if they are, unable to exploit them for whatever reason.
This has to come back to coaching, belief in the systems and structure they are trying to play, and they will have a game plan, they will have free reign to play it as they see it while still in the parameters of the overall plan to breakdown the opposition, but thats the problem, we arent, the French test was a prime example of it.
Wayne Smith spoke of the red head blue head (I think those were the colours) with blue being cool/calm/calculated, red being, well, not those, I think we are too much red, not able to see opportunities, and make poor decisions, and instead of reverting to a more simplistic rugby we keep doing the same things, making the same mistakes.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
forget how to play heads up rugby
This has to come back to coaching, belief in the systems and structure they are trying to play, and they will have a game plan, they will have free reign to play it as they see it while still in the parameters of the overall plan to breakdown the opposition, but thats the problem, we arent, the French test was a prime example of it.
Wayne Smith spoke of the red head blue head (I think those were the colours) with blue being cool/calm/calculated, red being, well, not those, I think we are too much red, not able to see opportunities, and make poor decisions, and instead of reverting to a more simplistic rugby we keep doing the same things, making the same mistakes.
I have a feeling it is the main weakness in Richie Mo's game, he a lovely runner and passer, but much as I like him he really hasn't taken too many tests by the scruff of the neck and tried to play in behind the fast approaching backline.
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@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke If he was such an excellent candidate, then surely it would be easy to point to some test match performances?
It doesn't make it easy to point out a particular test because he was always in & out of the team, which also makes it difficult for him to get a combo going with the other incumbent midfielder, but can remember him playing well in parts of tests... by watching any player you see if they have the goods to play in tests, he certainly did.
Since the days of Nonu/Smith we have always struggle to find a really good midfield combo, ALB/Goodhue midfield played a lot of tests together, but never had much to offer on attack.@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke If he was such an excellent candidate, then surely it would be easy to point to some test match performances?
It doesn't make it easy to point out a particular test because he was always in & out of the team, which also makes it difficult for him to get a combo going with the other incumbent midfielder, but can remember him playing well in parts of tests... by watching any player you see if they have the goods to play in tests, he certainly did.
Since the days of Nonu/Smith we have always struggle to find a really good midfield combo, ALB/Goodhue midfield played a lot of tests together, but never had much to offer on attack.I can only recall about 4 times that Goodhue and ALB ever started together. Isn't that a bit of a harsh judgment on limited opportunities? Regardless, wings seem to score plenty of tries when ALB plays, and Goodhue was shaping up well. Ryan Crotty and Sonny Bill Williams were pretty useful too. The selectors seemed to make good use of whomever was available in my eyes, and Laumape got his share of matches.
Question for you though - how many times did Laumape play South Africa or the 4 British teams? I remember a loss and a draw against the Lions when he came on the scene, but that is about it. Perhaps he chose to leave before he was tested against the likes of England, Ireland and South Africa, so the jury remains out there. Maybe I have it wrong, but I don't think you can draw such strong conclusions that coaches have it so wrong on the evidence presented. -
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke halfbacks are yappy dickheads who ignore reality.
Wonder if there are any half backs posting on this thread?
@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke halfbacks are yappy dickheads who ignore reality.
Wonder if there are any half backs posting on this thread?
At least you got it
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke halfbacks are yappy dickheads who ignore reality.
Wonder if there are any half backs posting on this thread?
At least you got it
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke halfbacks are yappy dickheads who ignore reality.
Wonder if there are any half backs posting on this thread?
At least you got it
Have no idea what you mean ...
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat isnt that what we want, a forward thinking coach
It's just like Hansen repeatedly assured us while we were looking like a structureless rabble throughout the 2018, then 2019 seasons, "judge us by the world cup" he repeatedly told the public, as those record losses to Australia & Ireland were all part of the grand master-plan, after all...
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat isnt that what we want, a forward thinking coach
It's just like Hansen repeatedly assured us while we were looking like a "structureless rabble throughout the 2018, then 2019 seasons, "judge us by the world cup" he repeatedly told the public, as those record losses to Australia & Ireland were all part of the grand master-plan, after all...
The nadir of Hansen's reign was the RWC2019 Semi where the term "structureless rabble" was taken to a whole new level of meaning. And unlike 2007 we didn't have the excuse of a shit Ref.
We've been on the slide for 4-5 years now and the problems seem to be deeper than just the coaching set-up.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..
And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.
I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.
He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem
We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.
The frustration for me is we seem to have periods on the pitch when they forwards are absolutely dominant and then, more often than not, give up momentum by stupid mistakes and gift the opposition the initiative. We've lost the ability to ride out those periods when things just don't go well - we end up trying too hard and making things worse.
It's a head space thing that's missing, for me.
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@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one,
Hansen greatly benefitted from a plethora of all time greats all in one team at the same time - McCaw, Carter, Conrad, Aaron and Ben Smith, Nonu, Retallick, Kaino, Read .That's 9 of the 15.
That's not counting Sam Whitelock and perhaps a few others were bloody good.
Kudos to him - but subsequent events are dimming my view of him, particularly how he dismisses any questioning of him or his boy toy Foster.
@frank said in All Blacks 2021:
Kudos to him - but subsequent events are dimming my view of him, particularly how he dismisses any questioning of him or his boy toy Foster
Hansen went from a 1000w bulb to a £1.50 plug-in night-light after his 2019 RWC campaign in my book. The rot started with him.
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@booboo I played 9 about half my "career" but I was more like a slow 6 with a shit pass...
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@booboo I played 9 about half my "career" but I was more like a slow 6 with a shit pass...
Eddie likes that skillset for England, and needs a replacement for Ben Youngs tbh? :winking_face:
The only criticism of Smith isn't that he box kicks as per team tactics, only that he's not as accurate as say Connor Murray, who can be pinpoint on a good day. On attack he takes very heads-up options.
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@frank said in All Blacks 2021:
Kudos to him - but subsequent events are dimming my view of him, particularly how he dismisses any questioning of him or his boy toy Foster
Hansen went from a 1000w bulb to a £1.50 plug-in night-light after his 2019 RWC campaign in my book. The rot started with him.
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@frank said in All Blacks 2021:
Kudos to him - but subsequent events are dimming my view of him, particularly how he dismisses any questioning of him or his boy toy Foster
Hansen went from a 1000w bulb to a £1.50 plug-in night-light after his 2019 RWC campaign in my book. The rot started with him.
Are you from Waikato by any chance?
It's well documented that in Steve Hansen's last 2-3 years (during the period Wayne Smith departed) Foster's influence across general team decisions increased dramatically. He was basically empowered by Hansen to run the team trainings, oversee team strategy etc.. with Hansen transitioning into a more directorial, far less hands on role. Foster shouldered increased media duties well in the lead up to 2019, in addition to having increased ownership over trainings, general team patterns, game-planning etc..
Hansen shouldered the majority of the strategy, training specifics and game-planning from 2012-2017, with Foster in a more low-profile specific backs role, working solely on the performance of the backline. This all changed after W.Smith left.
The pattern is clear, the All Black's rapid decline is directly correlated with Fozzie's increased influence on the team.
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p I'd be happy for Razor to get the top job because of his energy, enthusiasm and ability to get the very best out of his players, but with a heavyweight, experienced Assistant (Smith, Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Gatland, even Deans or Mitchell).
Yeah, Razor is an excellent coach & would do a really good job as head coach for the AB's - he has good rugby nous, so certainly wouldn't need to rely heavily on a very experienced coaching assistant - it's not vital if hasn't coached another country overseas, also the bloke is in his mid to late 40's & has won 4 or 5 Super Rugby titles... NZ Super Rugby is based on a really fast paced game, the same style the ABs play, so with all his experience as a Super Rugby coach he's the type of bloke we need, would have liked a Robertson/Brown combo, would be a top mix as one use to play in the forwards & the other in the backs.
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p I'd be happy for Razor to get the top job because of his energy, enthusiasm and ability to get the very best out of his players, but with a heavyweight, experienced Assistant (Smith, Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Gatland, even Deans or Mitchell).
Yeah, Razor is an excellent coach & would do a really good job as head coach for the AB's - he has good rugby nous, so certainly wouldn't need to rely heavily on a very experienced coaching assistant - it's not vital if hasn't coached another country overseas, also the bloke is in his mid to late 40's & has won 4 or 5 Super Rugby titles... NZ Super Rugby is based on a really fast paced game, the same style the ABs play, so with all his experience as a Super Rugby coach he's the type of bloke we need, would have liked a Robertson/Brown combo, would be a top mix as one use to play in the forwards & the other in the backs.
Where does this confidence come from? With Smith, Henry, Hansen, Jones, Gatland, McKenzie, Wyllie, Hart and Deans (whichever job you count) shit hit the fan during their first international appointment. Why would Razor be any different and things go to custard like his second campaign with the U20s?
Also why are we so sure that he isn't going to follow the trend of most (but not all) Crusaders/Canterbury coaches having major issues once moving to a different environment?
I'm in favour of a Razor appointment in the style of Rassie, Cheika or Mitch given where we are in the cycle. He is well suited to shake things up and will improve the side in the short term. But we have to be realistic that over the medium to long term the odds are against him.
