All Blacks 2021
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
TBH, as I got older I probably started watching Saffa games again as I'd get up and watch them in the morning while I ate breakfast, while skipping through all the faffing between the actual play.
Anyway, to solve the issue, let's just designate one of our teams to play like a Saffa team.
I'd nominate the Canes but they have shit 10s and midget locks so might not work too well.we don't have that factory that they have somewhere outside of Bloemfontein that produces unit after unit of 2m+ jacked 2nd rowers with crew-cuts
Not wanting to get in a shitfight with the new holiday happy Mariner, but is the gap in tall timber at the top level actually even that big or noticeable these days (aside from pure depth)? Only Lood seems to be an outlier in complete size.
The Boks still carry 1.98m locks and we seem to be pretty well stocked with them and guys sitting on or over the 2m mark - just some coaches like to play smaller guys.
our locks may be big-ish, but they aren't very good, and they aren't very hard. We've got the 2 all-timers, both waning, and then zilch.
Those young kids are big enough, but are they hard enough? good enough? Time will tell i suppose.I think the young ones are good enough (maybe hope), they'll just need their opportunities in the next few years, when those two all timers hang up their boots.
we can always fall back on trusty old not big enough nor good enough Scott Barrett for another world cup cycle i guess...
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
TBH, as I got older I probably started watching Saffa games again as I'd get up and watch them in the morning while I ate breakfast, while skipping through all the faffing between the actual play.
Anyway, to solve the issue, let's just designate one of our teams to play like a Saffa team.
I'd nominate the Canes but they have shit 10s and midget locks so might not work too well.we don't have that factory that they have somewhere outside of Bloemfontein that produces unit after unit of 2m+ jacked 2nd rowers with crew-cuts
Not wanting to get in a shitfight with the new holiday happy Mariner, but is the gap in tall timber at the top level actually even that big or noticeable these days (aside from pure depth)? Only Lood seems to be an outlier in complete size.
The Boks still carry 1.98m locks and we seem to be pretty well stocked with them and guys sitting on or over the 2m mark - just some coaches like to play smaller guys.
our locks may be big-ish, but they aren't very good, and they aren't very hard. We've got the 2 all-timers, both waning, and then zilch.
Those young kids are big enough, but are they hard enough? good enough? Time will tell i suppose.I think the young ones are good enough (maybe hope), they'll just need their opportunities in the next few years, when those two all timers hang up their boots.
we can always fall back on trusty old not big enough nor good enough Scott Barrett for another world cup cycle i guess...
He'll be on the blindside for the big games.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
TBH, as I got older I probably started watching Saffa games again as I'd get up and watch them in the morning while I ate breakfast, while skipping through all the faffing between the actual play.
Anyway, to solve the issue, let's just designate one of our teams to play like a Saffa team.
I'd nominate the Canes but they have shit 10s and midget locks so might not work too well.we don't have that factory that they have somewhere outside of Bloemfontein that produces unit after unit of 2m+ jacked 2nd rowers with crew-cuts
Not wanting to get in a shitfight with the new holiday happy Mariner, but is the gap in tall timber at the top level actually even that big or noticeable these days (aside from pure depth)? Only Lood seems to be an outlier in complete size.
The Boks still carry 1.98m locks and we seem to be pretty well stocked with them and guys sitting on or over the 2m mark - just some coaches like to play smaller guys.
our locks may be big-ish, but they aren't very good, and they aren't very hard. We've got the 2 all-timers, both waning, and then zilch.
Those young kids are big enough, but are they hard enough? good enough? Time will tell i suppose.I think the young ones are good enough (maybe hope), they'll just need their opportunities in the next few years, when those two all timers hang up their boots.
we can always fall back on trusty old not big enough nor good enough Scott Barrett for another world cup cycle i guess...
He'll be on the blindside for the big games.
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
TBH, as I got older I probably started watching Saffa games again as I'd get up and watch them in the morning while I ate breakfast, while skipping through all the faffing between the actual play.
Anyway, to solve the issue, let's just designate one of our teams to play like a Saffa team.
I'd nominate the Canes but they have shit 10s and midget locks so might not work too well.we don't have that factory that they have somewhere outside of Bloemfontein that produces unit after unit of 2m+ jacked 2nd rowers with crew-cuts
Not wanting to get in a shitfight with the new holiday happy Mariner, but is the gap in tall timber at the top level actually even that big or noticeable these days (aside from pure depth)? Only Lood seems to be an outlier in complete size.
The Boks still carry 1.98m locks and we seem to be pretty well stocked with them and guys sitting on or over the 2m mark - just some coaches like to play smaller guys.
our locks may be big-ish, but they aren't very good, and they aren't very hard. We've got the 2 all-timers, both waning, and then zilch.
Those young kids are big enough, but are they hard enough? good enough? Time will tell i suppose.I think the young ones are good enough (maybe hope), they'll just need their opportunities in the next few years, when those two all timers hang up their boots.
we can always fall back on trusty old not big enough nor good enough Scott Barrett for another world cup cycle i guess...
He'll be on the blindside for the big games.
it'll take more than that to harsh my buzz
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@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life Increasingly I suspect that we will have to compromise and select a shorter power lock, if we want to maintain some 2nd row grunt.
i'm totally cool with that if we have the right plan for the players we have. Rugby does not have to be cut-and-paste.
It's the balance and plan i would be dubious of (and the fact all our lineout throwers seem to suck, seriously, why are lineouts such an issue in NZ?)
@mariner4life Power lock partnered with a rotation of Whitelock and Retallick each week. Barrett on the bench. Ioane + Jacobsen/Sotutu/Robinson in the loose forwards to add two lineout options. Sorted, as long as we can develop that power lock.
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One thing we don't seem to value in NZ at the moment is workmanlike locks. Now, I'm going to use a Magpies example, but that's just the one I know, other provinces likely have similar examples that they can cut and paste in.
Tom Parson's has never secured a Super contract (he's finally got an injury replacement one now) despite being a stand out, workman like, lock in the NPC for years now. Maybe, he's not up to Super level, but we don't know. Bryn Evans came back from the UK and was bloody good for the Highlanders, yet Parsons has definitely been the best of the Magpies locks while Evans has been back.
FYI - I'm not suggesting him for higher honours or anything, just musing on the closed shop for Super rugby contracts sometimes.
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@mariner4life Power lock partnered with a rotation of Whitelock and Retallick each week. Barrett on the bench. Ioane + Jacobsen/Sotutu/Robinson in the loose forwards to add two lineout options. Sorted, as long as we can develop that power lock.
@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life Power lock partnered with a rotation of Whitelock and Retallick each week. Barrett on the bench. Ioane + Jacobsen/Sotutu/Robinson in the loose forwards to add two lineout options. Sorted, as long as we can develop that power lock.
you would think with the control/influence NZR has over the super teams developing certain players would be easy!
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@kirwan said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
They hardly brought a lot of value to Super Rugby (except diversity) besides cheating officials and corrupt administrators.
I don't agree. They brought huge physicality to the game, and a different style of play for people and teams to adapt to. They forced us to learn how to travel long distances and play well. They made us develop different game plans to win at altitude.
That appears to be something we learnt easily. We dominated them in SR.
Not all the teams, all the time. Point being that it educated a large amount of players what was necessary to improve their game.
Chiefs being thrashed in a final comes to mind. Blues had issues with the Sharks many times.
I agree, not all teams all the time. That's a function of depth and a clear argument against the expansion of what was once a premium product.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@kirwan said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
They hardly brought a lot of value to Super Rugby (except diversity) besides cheating officials and corrupt administrators.
I don't agree. They brought huge physicality to the game, and a different style of play for people and teams to adapt to. They forced us to learn how to travel long distances and play well. They made us develop different game plans to win at altitude.
That appears to be something we learnt easily. We dominated them in SR.
Not all the teams, all the time. Point being that it educated a large amount of players what was necessary to improve their game.
Chiefs being thrashed in a final comes to mind. Blues had issues with the Sharks many times.
I agree, not all teams all the time. That's a function of depth and a clear argument against the expansion of what was once a premium product.
I agree with that, Super 12 seems a long time ago.
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BTW, Retallick has a fuckton to prove this year. He was only in the team on reputation in 2021, and that reputation is well gone now.
@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
BTW, Retallick has a fuckton to prove this year. He was only in the team on reputation in 2021, and that reputation is well gone now.
I don't think Retallick was as bad as you make out. He wasn't as effective as he was previously but he put in a ton of work and at times looked like he was travelling better than Whitelock (and as we know Whitelock secured a nomination in the locks category in the most prestigious team of the year).
I'm hoping he's hitting the gym and the kai over summer so the above mentioned effectiveness will return.
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@mariner4life Power lock partnered with a rotation of Whitelock and Retallick each week. Barrett on the bench. Ioane + Jacobsen/Sotutu/Robinson in the loose forwards to add two lineout options. Sorted, as long as we can develop that power lock.
@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life Power lock partnered with a rotation of Whitelock and Retallick each week. Barrett on the bench. Ioane + Jacobsen/Sotutu/Robinson in the loose forwards to add two lineout options. Sorted, as long as we can develop that power lock.
ah, we are picking two 7s for as long as the current guys are in charge mate. Savea is the best #8 in the world apparently...
So power lock, two opensides, and a hooker who can't throw. Prepare to spend a LOT of time in your own half.
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One thing we don't seem to value in NZ at the moment is workmanlike locks. Now, I'm going to use a Magpies example, but that's just the one I know, other provinces likely have similar examples that they can cut and paste in.
Tom Parson's has never secured a Super contract (he's finally got an injury replacement one now) despite being a stand out, workman like, lock in the NPC for years now. Maybe, he's not up to Super level, but we don't know. Bryn Evans came back from the UK and was bloody good for the Highlanders, yet Parsons has definitely been the best of the Magpies locks while Evans has been back.
FYI - I'm not suggesting him for higher honours or anything, just musing on the closed shop for Super rugby contracts sometimes.
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
One thing we don't seem to value in NZ at the moment is workmanlike locks. Now, I'm going to use a Magpies example, but that's just the one I know, other provinces likely have similar examples that they can cut and paste in.
Tom Parson's has never secured a Super contract (he's finally got an injury replacement one now) despite being a stand out, workman like, lock in the NPC for years now. Maybe, he's not up to Super level, but we don't know. Bryn Evans came back from the UK and was bloody good for the Highlanders, yet Parsons has definitely been the best of the Magpies locks while Evans has been back.
FYI - I'm not suggesting him for higher honours or anything, just musing on the closed shop for Super rugby contracts sometimes.
my personal feeling on why we opt for "experience" rather than developing newer players is the super season is too short...so there is too much riding on each game. the rugby season itself is long but thats because we run two competitions (plus internations)
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@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life Power lock partnered with a rotation of Whitelock and Retallick each week. Barrett on the bench. Ioane + Jacobsen/Sotutu/Robinson in the loose forwards to add two lineout options. Sorted, as long as we can develop that power lock.
ah, we are picking two 7s for as long as the current guys are in charge mate. Savea is the best #8 in the world apparently...
So power lock, two opensides, and a hooker who can't throw. Prepare to spend a LOT of time in your own half.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life Power lock partnered with a rotation of Whitelock and Retallick each week. Barrett on the bench. Ioane + Jacobsen/Sotutu/Robinson in the loose forwards to add two lineout options. Sorted, as long as we can develop that power lock.
ah, we are picking two 7s for as long as the current guys are in charge mate. Savea is the best #8 in the world apparently...
So power lock, two opensides, and a hooker who can't throw. Prepare to spend a LOT of time in your own half.
That sounds about right for a gameplan based on counter attack.
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One thing we don't seem to value in NZ at the moment is workmanlike locks. Now, I'm going to use a Magpies example, but that's just the one I know, other provinces likely have similar examples that they can cut and paste in.
Tom Parson's has never secured a Super contract (he's finally got an injury replacement one now) despite being a stand out, workman like, lock in the NPC for years now. Maybe, he's not up to Super level, but we don't know. Bryn Evans came back from the UK and was bloody good for the Highlanders, yet Parsons has definitely been the best of the Magpies locks while Evans has been back.
FYI - I'm not suggesting him for higher honours or anything, just musing on the closed shop for Super rugby contracts sometimes.
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
One thing we don't seem to value in NZ at the moment is workmanlike locks. Now, I'm going to use a Magpies example, but that's just the one I know, other provinces likely have similar examples that they can cut and paste in.
Tom Parson's has never secured a Super contract (he's finally got an injury replacement one now) despite being a stand out, workman like, lock in the NPC for years now. Maybe, he's not up to Super level, but we don't know. Bryn Evans came back from the UK and was bloody good for the Highlanders, yet Parsons has definitely been the best of the Magpies locks while Evans has been back.
FYI - I'm not suggesting him for higher honours or anything, just musing on the closed shop for Super rugby contracts sometimes.
because you don't need them at Super level with the way it is currently played. They just clog up attacking space.
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@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
BTW, Retallick has a fuckton to prove this year. He was only in the team on reputation in 2021, and that reputation is well gone now.
I don't think Retallick was as bad as you make out. He wasn't as effective as he was previously but he put in a ton of work and at times looked like he was travelling better than Whitelock (and as we know Whitelock secured a nomination in the locks category in the most prestigious team of the year).
I'm hoping he's hitting the gym and the kai over summer so the above mentioned effectiveness will return.
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
BTW, Retallick has a fuckton to prove this year. He was only in the team on reputation in 2021, and that reputation is well gone now.
I don't think Retallick was as bad as you make out. He wasn't as effective as he was previously but he put in a ton of work and at times looked like he was travelling better than Whitelock (and as we know Whitelock secured a nomination in the locks category in the most prestigious team of the year).
I'm hoping he's hitting the gym and the kai over summer so the above mentioned effectiveness will return.
he definitely got better as the tour went on, but yes, if we judge by previous output, he's way off the pace
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life Power lock partnered with a rotation of Whitelock and Retallick each week. Barrett on the bench. Ioane + Jacobsen/Sotutu/Robinson in the loose forwards to add two lineout options. Sorted, as long as we can develop that power lock.
ah, we are picking two 7s for as long as the current guys are in charge mate. Savea is the best #8 in the world apparently...
So power lock, two opensides, and a hooker who can't throw. Prepare to spend a LOT of time in your own half.
That sounds about right for a gameplan based on counter attack.
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life Power lock partnered with a rotation of Whitelock and Retallick each week. Barrett on the bench. Ioane + Jacobsen/Sotutu/Robinson in the loose forwards to add two lineout options. Sorted, as long as we can develop that power lock.
ah, we are picking two 7s for as long as the current guys are in charge mate. Savea is the best #8 in the world apparently...
So power lock, two opensides, and a hooker who can't throw. Prepare to spend a LOT of time in your own half.
That sounds about right for a gameplan based on counter attack.
that's been working wonderfully, and is soooo hard to counter
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
One thing we don't seem to value in NZ at the moment is workmanlike locks. Now, I'm going to use a Magpies example, but that's just the one I know, other provinces likely have similar examples that they can cut and paste in.
Tom Parson's has never secured a Super contract (he's finally got an injury replacement one now) despite being a stand out, workman like, lock in the NPC for years now. Maybe, he's not up to Super level, but we don't know. Bryn Evans came back from the UK and was bloody good for the Highlanders, yet Parsons has definitely been the best of the Magpies locks while Evans has been back.
FYI - I'm not suggesting him for higher honours or anything, just musing on the closed shop for Super rugby contracts sometimes.
my personal feeling on why we opt for "experience" rather than developing newer players is the super season is too short...so there is too much riding on each game. the rugby season itself is long but thats because we run two competitions (plus internations)
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
One thing we don't seem to value in NZ at the moment is workmanlike locks. Now, I'm going to use a Magpies example, but that's just the one I know, other provinces likely have similar examples that they can cut and paste in.
Tom Parson's has never secured a Super contract (he's finally got an injury replacement one now) despite being a stand out, workman like, lock in the NPC for years now. Maybe, he's not up to Super level, but we don't know. Bryn Evans came back from the UK and was bloody good for the Highlanders, yet Parsons has definitely been the best of the Magpies locks while Evans has been back.
FYI - I'm not suggesting him for higher honours or anything, just musing on the closed shop for Super rugby contracts sometimes.
my personal feeling on why we opt for "experience" rather than developing newer players is the super season is too short...so there is too much riding on each game. the rugby season itself is long but thats because we run two competitions (plus internations)
TBF, Parson's seems to miss out to young guys more so than experienced guys (despite my Evans example).
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
One thing we don't seem to value in NZ at the moment is workmanlike locks. Now, I'm going to use a Magpies example, but that's just the one I know, other provinces likely have similar examples that they can cut and paste in.
Tom Parson's has never secured a Super contract (he's finally got an injury replacement one now) despite being a stand out, workman like, lock in the NPC for years now. Maybe, he's not up to Super level, but we don't know. Bryn Evans came back from the UK and was bloody good for the Highlanders, yet Parsons has definitely been the best of the Magpies locks while Evans has been back.
FYI - I'm not suggesting him for higher honours or anything, just musing on the closed shop for Super rugby contracts sometimes.
my personal feeling on why we opt for "experience" rather than developing newer players is the super season is too short...so there is too much riding on each game. the rugby season itself is long but thats because we run two competitions (plus internations)
TBF, Parson's seems to miss out to young guys more so than experienced guys (despite my Evans example).
@nepia maybe hes just a dick?
as i say, really just how i see the Highlanders approach over the last few years, pretty much ever position needs some old journeyman who may never be an all black but also wont have a brain fart when under pressure
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
TBH, as I got older I probably started watching Saffa games again as I'd get up and watch them in the morning while I ate breakfast, while skipping through all the faffing between the actual play.
Anyway, to solve the issue, let's just designate one of our teams to play like a Saffa team.
I'd nominate the Canes but they have shit 10s and midget locks so might not work too well.we don't have that factory that they have somewhere outside of Bloemfontein that produces unit after unit of 2m+ jacked 2nd rowers with crew-cuts
We could just import them while their country becomes a failed state.
ah yes, teh Black Caps method
Can we do better than Rawlinson though?
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
TBH, as I got older I probably started watching Saffa games again as I'd get up and watch them in the morning while I ate breakfast, while skipping through all the faffing between the actual play.
Anyway, to solve the issue, let's just designate one of our teams to play like a Saffa team.
I'd nominate the Canes but they have shit 10s and midget locks so might not work too well.we don't have that factory that they have somewhere outside of Bloemfontein that produces unit after unit of 2m+ jacked 2nd rowers with crew-cuts
We could just import them while their country becomes a failed state.
ah yes, teh Black Caps method
Can we do better than Rawlinson though?
It's a numbers game.
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@kirwan said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
They hardly brought a lot of value to Super Rugby (except diversity) besides cheating officials and corrupt administrators.
I don't agree. They brought huge physicality to the game, and a different style of play for people and teams to adapt to. They forced us to learn how to travel long distances and play well. They made us develop different game plans to win at altitude.
That appears to be something we learnt easily. We dominated them in SR.
Not all the teams, all the time. Point being that it educated a large amount of players what was necessary to improve their game.
Chiefs being thrashed in a final comes to mind. Blues had issues with the Sharks many times.
I agree, not all teams all the time. That's a function of depth and a clear argument against the expansion of what was once a premium product.
@antipodean think you need only look at the most successful team in super rugby, and.how often they'd struggle with the Force, sure plenty were on the way back from SA, but they still struggled to put them away as well as they were expected to all the time (yea they still smoke them mostly)
I just looked and the Crusaders have 69.7% win ratio in thier history but this drops to 62% against a team that has won a mere 32% of thier games...
having a variety of styles is key to continued innovation, growth and development
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@antipodean think you need only look at the most successful team in super rugby, and.how often they'd struggle with the Force, sure plenty were on the way back from SA, but they still struggled to put them away as well as they were expected to all the time (yea they still smoke them mostly)
I just looked and the Crusaders have 69.7% win ratio in thier history but this drops to 62% against a team that has won a mere 32% of thier games...
having a variety of styles is key to continued innovation, growth and development
@taniwharugby I think results in Perthfontein was largely a mental issue.
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@taniwharugby I think results in Perthfontein was largely a mental issue.
@antipodean oh I am sure that was a factor, but winning on the road was a huge part of Crusader successes over the years, the fact these guys managed to be more than a walkover in several games, even winning and getting 2 draws (one in Chch) just shows what a slightly different style can bring.
Not advocating anything for the Force, simply showing an anomaly, that is in part due to a different playing style and environment.
