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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
This article I just read seemed a pretty balanced view, the question mark I had was for the future: that younger generation trans women who take puberty-blockers might not go through male puberty at all - so may be a lot closer to natal females?
"The scientists argue there is a path to allow trans women to compete in female sport by lowering testosterone. According to Pitsiladis, one way to achieve this is to change rules regarding testosterone depending on the sport, with less emphasis on using medication in events like shooting, and more in collision sports ...
However other scientists insist there is overwhelming evidence to show there is no way to allow trans women into female sport without sacrificing fairness. They point to recent studies showing that trans women maintain significant advantages from undergoing male puberty even when they subsequently lower testosterone"
IOC’s new transgender guidance criticised as unfair towards female sport
Medical experts have claimed the International Olympic Committee’s new transgender framework ‘is not based on scientific principles’
Puberty blockers should be illegal. No 12/13 year old should be making these sorts of decisions as a child. Far too easily led by parents or other adults with undue influence.
This will be seen as shameful in 10 or 20 years.
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@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@L_n_P but then you go down the road of whether it is even ethical to be giving children puberty blockers given the potential long term effects of that. In my opinion, it absolutely isn't, especially when you consider how many young people with gender dysphoria actually turn out to be gay and those feelings of dysphoria subside; we are seeing more and more cases of people really regretting hormone treatment/puberty blockers/surgery.
Ethics are societal, each country makes their own decisions at their own pace so that's a pretty wide discussion for me. Far more simply and within the "Trans in Sport" context, if puberty-blockers are a reality then sports scientists will also need to consider this as part of any future research
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@L_n_P but then you go down the road of whether it is even ethical to be giving children puberty blockers given the potential long term effects of that. In my opinion, it absolutely isn't, especially when you consider how many young people with gender dysphoria actually turn out to be gay and those feelings of dysphoria subside; we are seeing more and more cases of people really regretting hormone treatment/puberty blockers/surgery.
Ethics are societal, each country makes their own decisions at their own pace so that's a pretty wide discussion for me. Far more simply and within the "Trans in Sport" context, if puberty-blockers are a reality then sports scientists will also need to consider this as part of any future research
I think it's immutable that children are too young to make life changing decisions.
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@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@L_n_P but then you go down the road of whether it is even ethical to be giving children puberty blockers given the potential long term effects of that. In my opinion, it absolutely isn't, especially when you consider how many young people with gender dysphoria actually turn out to be gay and those feelings of dysphoria subside; we are seeing more and more cases of people really regretting hormone treatment/puberty blockers/surgery.
Ethics are societal, each country makes their own decisions at their own pace so that's a pretty wide discussion for me. Far more simply and within the "Trans in Sport" context, if puberty-blockers are a reality then sports scientists will also need to consider this as part of any future research
I think it's immutable that children are too young to make life changing decisions.
From what you say on "life changing decisions" I wonder in NZ - aren't parental and medical consent needed to access puberty blockers, or can your kids over there just decide for themselves? A quick read I just did, NZ medical pathways for trans kids have 3 separate decision points - access to puberty blockers (age unclear), hormones (min age 16+), surgery (min age 18+)
If so UK would be pretty similar to NZ, though it's under review
US and Canada legislate it on a state-by-state / province-by-province basis etc
(Not getting into the ethics here, just pointing out some current examples)
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Surely a precedent has been set that governments decide on whether kids get these procedures/treatments.
If the governments are satisfied with the science then parents can choose to be a part of their children's lives or be excluded from their children's lives in society.
We can call the dissenting parents "anti- transers"
The health of the child is at stake here. Don't want health services over burdened with the actions of dumb trans deniers, now do we. Besides, parents have a choice whether to follow government rulings or suffer the consequences. It's not a mandate. Parents can present an official consentment certificate at sports days and music recitals.
That's how we do health interventions nowadays.
(yes I know that's dripping with sarcasm, but all sarcasm exposes principles)
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@siam Pretty much spot on honestly. There's a few things at play -
- The ages I gave are for NZ and UK are for public healthcare access for trans kids, of course there's the option of going private too
- There are international healthcare guideliness for trans kids which allow a bit more flexibility e.g like maybe starting hormones at 13-15 ... these are followed by private medical suppliers, I would guess the US too
- A trans kid in the UK can theoretically access puberty blockers and hormones under 16 without parental consent if they are found to be "Gillick competent" by practitioners. Gillick is a wider legal precedent which includes access for all kids to abortion services, contraceptives etc. Real life is trans kids can't apply this here given public healthcare gatekeeping - unless they can afford to go private without their parents knowing (how???)
On the science ... puberty blockers have been used for decades now to delay precocious puberty, BUT they're needed for longer periods by many trans kids - the goal is specifically to buy them time and let them decide if they do want to take further steps, or to desist. So there ARE some known areas of medical discussion / uncertainty specific to trans kids:
- Bone density impacts
- Fertility perservation prior to starting hormones for both M2F (cryopreservation of sperm - definitely needed) and F2M (preservation of eggs - suggested)
The medical gatekeeping to go on puberty blockers seems pretty high as it should be - I'd need to dig out UK stats, but the huge majority of pre-puberty kids referred to Gender Identity Clinics don't end up on them ... from memory
Everyone's going to have a perspective, hopefully this adds light though
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@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Memes:
Given apple have a pregnant man emoji this isn’t a meme anymore.
Sad, but fucked.
There are pregnant people with beards out there, so meh? Who cares, I don't have to shag them
Moving this and my post in case anybody has the desire to enter the most toxic debate on the planet.
Having a view challenged with the argument of not having to shag them as the perspective is unlikely to provoke much thought.
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@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Memes:
Given apple have a pregnant man emoji this isn’t a meme anymore.
Sad, but fucked.
There are pregnant people with beards out there, so meh? Who cares, I don't have to shag them
Moving this and my post in case anybody has the desire to enter the most toxic debate on the planet.
Having a view challenged with the argument of not having to shag them as the perspective is unlikely to provoke much thought.
Fair enough, I'll zip lip. It was a poor attempt at a joke
And not post anymore boobs
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@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Memes:
Given apple have a pregnant man emoji this isn’t a meme anymore.
Sad, but fucked.
There are pregnant people with beards out there, so meh? Who cares, I don't have to shag them
Moving this and my post in case anybody has the desire to enter the most toxic debate on the planet.
Having a view challenged with the argument of not having to shag them as the perspective is unlikely to provoke much thought!
Fair enough, I'll zip lip. It was a poor attempt at a joke
I should have used an exclamation mark at the end of my sentence to lighten it up a bit ... (changed now in this reply).
And not post anymore boobs
Punish others? No need ...
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@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Memes:
Given apple have a pregnant man emoji this isn’t a meme anymore.
Sad, but fucked.
There are pregnant people with beards out there, so meh? Who cares, I don't have to shag them
Moving this and my post in case anybody has the desire to enter the most toxic debate on the planet.
Having a view challenged with the argument of not having to shag them as the perspective is unlikely to provoke much thought!
Fair enough, I'll zip lip. It was a poor attempt at a joke
I should have used an exclamation mark at the end of my sentence to lighten it up a bit ... (changed now in this reply).
And not post anymore boobs
Punish others? No need ...
My boob fighting pic was sadly deleted. But I can still see it
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Perhaps more substantively - on Lia Thomas, USA swimming have brought in new policies
Lia Thomas' future murkier as USA Swimming releases new policy, Penn teammates express support
Lia Thomas’ swimming future still remains unclear as USA Swimming released its Athlete Inclusion, Competitive Equality and Eligibility Policy on Tuesday, while her teammates released a joint statement backing their fellow competitor.
For me all the science seems pretty immature, but the key point is that fairness has to be the #1 priority in elite level sport at least ... and that this needs to apply to intersex competitors too like Caster Semenya (you'll have to google DSD, and I'd suggest Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia)
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Perhaps more substantively - on Lia Thomas, USA swimming have brought in new policies
Lia Thomas' future murkier as USA Swimming releases new policy, Penn teammates express support
Lia Thomas’ swimming future still remains unclear as USA Swimming released its Athlete Inclusion, Competitive Equality and Eligibility Policy on Tuesday, while her teammates released a joint statement backing their fellow competitor.
For me all the science seems pretty immature, but the key point is that fairness has to be the #1 priority in elite level sport at least ... and that this needs to apply to intersex competitors too like Caster Semenya (you'll have to google DSD, and I'd suggest Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia)
Caster Semenya is a different argument to Lia Thomas.
And interesting reporting to suggest her team mates are fully in support. Saw a number of reports that show quite a number support the new policy.
(Also a number of stories doing a bit of a hit on Thomas and less than savoury behavior in and around the changing rooms.)
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Sixteen of transgender swimmer Lia Thomas' female teammates on the University of Pennsylvania team sent a letter to Penn and to the Ivy League, urging schools not to contest the new USA Swimming rules on competition for transgender athletes.
"We fully support Lia Thomas in her decision to affirm her gender identity and to transition from a man to a woman," the swimmers wrote. "Lia has every right to live her life authentically. However, we also recognize that when it comes to sports competition, that the biology of sex is a separate issue from someone’s gender identity."
"Biologically, Lia holds an unfair advantage over competition in the women’s category, as evidenced by her rankings that have bounced from #462 as a male to #1 as a female," they added. "If she were to be eligible to compete against us, she could now break Penn, Ivy, and NCAA Women’s Swimming records; feats she could never have done as a male athlete."
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@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Caster Semenya is a different argument to Lia Thomas.
The overall "fairness in sport" argument seems the same though? In cases like Semenya, some women with DSDs generate excessive testosterone, but naturally, so this triggered new rules to regulate testosterone levels, and if necessary take medication to reduce testosterone levels. I just saw in Wiki that she appealed last year
Caster Semenya appeals to European Court of Human Rights over testosterone limit | CNN
Caster Semenya, the South African Olympic champion runner, has appealed to the European Court of Human Rights to end “discriminatory” testosterone limits imposed on female athletes.
Not sure the status, but I imagine she'll lose
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@L_n_P she will lose because she has testes which produce elevated levels of testosterone giving her an unfair advantage over women. She's actually a biological male with DSD. She's also a fringe case and should not be conflated with transgender athletes.
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Caster Semenya is a different argument to Lia Thomas.
The overall "fairness in sport" argument seems the same though? In cases like Semenya, some women with DSDs generate excessive testosterone, but naturally, so this triggered new rules to regulate testosterone levels, and if necessary take medication to reduce testosterone levels. I just saw in Wiki that she appealed last year
Caster Semenya appeals to European Court of Human Rights over testosterone limit | CNN
Caster Semenya, the South African Olympic champion runner, has appealed to the European Court of Human Rights to end “discriminatory” testosterone limits imposed on female athletes.
Not sure the status, but I imagine she'll lose
Ah, ok see your point but think it is drawing a long bow to conflate it with transgender athletes making a choice.
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@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@L_n_P she will lose because she has testes which produce elevated levels of testosterone giving her an unfair advantage over women. She's actually a biological male with DSD. She's also a fringe case and should not be conflated with transgender athletes.
Yes, totally fair point, bad example. I was thinking XX females with DSDs but I see now Semenya's supposedly 46-XY which is very rare, and the rule applied by IAAF was specifically for this DSD
I was thinking DSDs more broadly as I was recently had an enlightening online chat with a biological (XX) female who has late-onset CAH, a DSD which is far more common (1-1.5%+) but mainly in a few specific communities, including hers sadly
Hormonal impacts vary case-by-case, but she had elevated testosterone for which she went through a lot of treatment - hormonal and surgery from age 12 on. Even so she went on to become a semi-pro female athlete in her 20s, so it was a pretty amazing discussion: she's very close to the science on this, and is certainly not a trans activist, in fact she's strongly feminist. I'd add more but that would probably 'out' her ...
Her view was that she was pretty okay with M2F trans inclusion in top-level female sport BUT reckons medically it needs 6-7 years on "HRT" (read that as testosterone suppression) to allow physical comparability, plus also medical gatekeeping
So interestingly, kind of where USA Swimming have just headed, but add an extra 3-4 years of testosterone suppression?
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
