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Surely a precedent has been set that governments decide on whether kids get these procedures/treatments.
If the governments are satisfied with the science then parents can choose to be a part of their children's lives or be excluded from their children's lives in society.
We can call the dissenting parents "anti- transers"
The health of the child is at stake here. Don't want health services over burdened with the actions of dumb trans deniers, now do we. Besides, parents have a choice whether to follow government rulings or suffer the consequences. It's not a mandate. Parents can present an official consentment certificate at sports days and music recitals.
That's how we do health interventions nowadays.
(yes I know that's dripping with sarcasm, but all sarcasm exposes principles)
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@siam Pretty much spot on honestly. There's a few things at play -
- The ages I gave are for NZ and UK are for public healthcare access for trans kids, of course there's the option of going private too
- There are international healthcare guideliness for trans kids which allow a bit more flexibility e.g like maybe starting hormones at 13-15 ... these are followed by private medical suppliers, I would guess the US too
- A trans kid in the UK can theoretically access puberty blockers and hormones under 16 without parental consent if they are found to be "Gillick competent" by practitioners. Gillick is a wider legal precedent which includes access for all kids to abortion services, contraceptives etc. Real life is trans kids can't apply this here given public healthcare gatekeeping - unless they can afford to go private without their parents knowing (how???)
On the science ... puberty blockers have been used for decades now to delay precocious puberty, BUT they're needed for longer periods by many trans kids - the goal is specifically to buy them time and let them decide if they do want to take further steps, or to desist. So there ARE some known areas of medical discussion / uncertainty specific to trans kids:
- Bone density impacts
- Fertility perservation prior to starting hormones for both M2F (cryopreservation of sperm - definitely needed) and F2M (preservation of eggs - suggested)
The medical gatekeeping to go on puberty blockers seems pretty high as it should be - I'd need to dig out UK stats, but the huge majority of pre-puberty kids referred to Gender Identity Clinics don't end up on them ... from memory
Everyone's going to have a perspective, hopefully this adds light though
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@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Memes:
Given apple have a pregnant man emoji this isn’t a meme anymore.
Sad, but fucked.
There are pregnant people with beards out there, so meh? Who cares, I don't have to shag them
Moving this and my post in case anybody has the desire to enter the most toxic debate on the planet.
Having a view challenged with the argument of not having to shag them as the perspective is unlikely to provoke much thought.
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@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Memes:
Given apple have a pregnant man emoji this isn’t a meme anymore.
Sad, but fucked.
There are pregnant people with beards out there, so meh? Who cares, I don't have to shag them
Moving this and my post in case anybody has the desire to enter the most toxic debate on the planet.
Having a view challenged with the argument of not having to shag them as the perspective is unlikely to provoke much thought.
Fair enough, I'll zip lip. It was a poor attempt at a joke
And not post anymore boobs
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@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Memes:
Given apple have a pregnant man emoji this isn’t a meme anymore.
Sad, but fucked.
There are pregnant people with beards out there, so meh? Who cares, I don't have to shag them
Moving this and my post in case anybody has the desire to enter the most toxic debate on the planet.
Having a view challenged with the argument of not having to shag them as the perspective is unlikely to provoke much thought!
Fair enough, I'll zip lip. It was a poor attempt at a joke
I should have used an exclamation mark at the end of my sentence to lighten it up a bit ... (changed now in this reply).
And not post anymore boobs
Punish others? No need ...
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@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@machpants said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@majorrage said in Memes:
Given apple have a pregnant man emoji this isn’t a meme anymore.
Sad, but fucked.
There are pregnant people with beards out there, so meh? Who cares, I don't have to shag them
Moving this and my post in case anybody has the desire to enter the most toxic debate on the planet.
Having a view challenged with the argument of not having to shag them as the perspective is unlikely to provoke much thought!
Fair enough, I'll zip lip. It was a poor attempt at a joke
I should have used an exclamation mark at the end of my sentence to lighten it up a bit ... (changed now in this reply).
And not post anymore boobs
Punish others? No need ...
My boob fighting pic was sadly deleted. But I can still see it
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Perhaps more substantively - on Lia Thomas, USA swimming have brought in new policies
Lia Thomas' future murkier as USA Swimming releases new policy, Penn teammates express support
Lia Thomas’ swimming future still remains unclear as USA Swimming released its Athlete Inclusion, Competitive Equality and Eligibility Policy on Tuesday, while her teammates released a joint statement backing their fellow competitor.
For me all the science seems pretty immature, but the key point is that fairness has to be the #1 priority in elite level sport at least ... and that this needs to apply to intersex competitors too like Caster Semenya (you'll have to google DSD, and I'd suggest Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia)
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Perhaps more substantively - on Lia Thomas, USA swimming have brought in new policies
Lia Thomas' future murkier as USA Swimming releases new policy, Penn teammates express support
Lia Thomas’ swimming future still remains unclear as USA Swimming released its Athlete Inclusion, Competitive Equality and Eligibility Policy on Tuesday, while her teammates released a joint statement backing their fellow competitor.
For me all the science seems pretty immature, but the key point is that fairness has to be the #1 priority in elite level sport at least ... and that this needs to apply to intersex competitors too like Caster Semenya (you'll have to google DSD, and I'd suggest Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia)
Caster Semenya is a different argument to Lia Thomas.
And interesting reporting to suggest her team mates are fully in support. Saw a number of reports that show quite a number support the new policy.
(Also a number of stories doing a bit of a hit on Thomas and less than savoury behavior in and around the changing rooms.)
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Sixteen of transgender swimmer Lia Thomas' female teammates on the University of Pennsylvania team sent a letter to Penn and to the Ivy League, urging schools not to contest the new USA Swimming rules on competition for transgender athletes.
"We fully support Lia Thomas in her decision to affirm her gender identity and to transition from a man to a woman," the swimmers wrote. "Lia has every right to live her life authentically. However, we also recognize that when it comes to sports competition, that the biology of sex is a separate issue from someone’s gender identity."
"Biologically, Lia holds an unfair advantage over competition in the women’s category, as evidenced by her rankings that have bounced from #462 as a male to #1 as a female," they added. "If she were to be eligible to compete against us, she could now break Penn, Ivy, and NCAA Women’s Swimming records; feats she could never have done as a male athlete."
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@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Caster Semenya is a different argument to Lia Thomas.
The overall "fairness in sport" argument seems the same though? In cases like Semenya, some women with DSDs generate excessive testosterone, but naturally, so this triggered new rules to regulate testosterone levels, and if necessary take medication to reduce testosterone levels. I just saw in Wiki that she appealed last year
Caster Semenya appeals to European Court of Human Rights over testosterone limit | CNN
Caster Semenya, the South African Olympic champion runner, has appealed to the European Court of Human Rights to end “discriminatory” testosterone limits imposed on female athletes.
Not sure the status, but I imagine she'll lose
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@L_n_P she will lose because she has testes which produce elevated levels of testosterone giving her an unfair advantage over women. She's actually a biological male with DSD. She's also a fringe case and should not be conflated with transgender athletes.
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Caster Semenya is a different argument to Lia Thomas.
The overall "fairness in sport" argument seems the same though? In cases like Semenya, some women with DSDs generate excessive testosterone, but naturally, so this triggered new rules to regulate testosterone levels, and if necessary take medication to reduce testosterone levels. I just saw in Wiki that she appealed last year
Caster Semenya appeals to European Court of Human Rights over testosterone limit | CNN
Caster Semenya, the South African Olympic champion runner, has appealed to the European Court of Human Rights to end “discriminatory” testosterone limits imposed on female athletes.
Not sure the status, but I imagine she'll lose
Ah, ok see your point but think it is drawing a long bow to conflate it with transgender athletes making a choice.
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@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@L_n_P she will lose because she has testes which produce elevated levels of testosterone giving her an unfair advantage over women. She's actually a biological male with DSD. She's also a fringe case and should not be conflated with transgender athletes.
Yes, totally fair point, bad example. I was thinking XX females with DSDs but I see now Semenya's supposedly 46-XY which is very rare, and the rule applied by IAAF was specifically for this DSD
I was thinking DSDs more broadly as I was recently had an enlightening online chat with a biological (XX) female who has late-onset CAH, a DSD which is far more common (1-1.5%+) but mainly in a few specific communities, including hers sadly
Hormonal impacts vary case-by-case, but she had elevated testosterone for which she went through a lot of treatment - hormonal and surgery from age 12 on. Even so she went on to become a semi-pro female athlete in her 20s, so it was a pretty amazing discussion: she's very close to the science on this, and is certainly not a trans activist, in fact she's strongly feminist. I'd add more but that would probably 'out' her ...
Her view was that she was pretty okay with M2F trans inclusion in top-level female sport BUT reckons medically it needs 6-7 years on "HRT" (read that as testosterone suppression) to allow physical comparability, plus also medical gatekeeping
So interestingly, kind of where USA Swimming have just headed, but add an extra 3-4 years of testosterone suppression?
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@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Perhaps more substantively - on Lia Thomas, USA swimming have brought in new policies
Lia Thomas' future murkier as USA Swimming releases new policy, Penn teammates express support
Lia Thomas’ swimming future still remains unclear as USA Swimming released its Athlete Inclusion, Competitive Equality and Eligibility Policy on Tuesday, while her teammates released a joint statement backing their fellow competitor.
For me all the science seems pretty immature, but the key point is that fairness has to be the #1 priority in elite level sport at least ... and that this needs to apply to intersex competitors too like Caster Semenya (you'll have to google DSD, and I'd suggest Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia)
Caster Semenya is a different argument to Lia Thomas.
And interesting reporting to suggest her team mates are fully in support. Saw a number of reports that show quite a number support the new policy.
(Also a number of stories doing a bit of a hit on Thomas and less than savoury behavior in and around the changing rooms.)
Well, boys will be boys.
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@L_n_P she will lose because she has testes which produce elevated levels of testosterone giving her an unfair advantage over women. She's actually a biological male with DSD. She's also a fringe case and should not be conflated with transgender athletes.
Yes, totally fair point, bad example. I was thinking XX females with DSDs but I see now Semenya's supposedly 46-XY which is very rare, and the rule applied by IAAF was specifically for this DSD
I was thinking DSDs more broadly as I was recently had an enlightening online chat with a biological (XX) female who has late-onset CAH, a DSD which is far more common (1-1.5%+) but mainly in a few specific communities, including hers sadly
Hormonal impacts vary case-by-case, but she had elevated testosterone for which she went through a lot of treatment - hormonal and surgery from age 12 on. Even so she went on to become a semi-pro female athlete in her 20s, so it was a pretty amazing discussion: she's very close to the science on this, and is certainly not a trans activist, in fact she's strongly feminist. I'd add more but that would probably 'out' her ...
Her view was that she was pretty okay with M2F trans inclusion in top-level female sport BUT reckons medically it needs 6-7 years on "HRT" (read that as testosterone suppression) to allow physical comparability, plus also medical gatekeeping
So interestingly, kind of where USA Swimming have just headed, but add an extra 3-4 years of testosterone suppression?
"6-7 years" doesn't sound particularly scientific, and I think the jury is still out on that. Benefitting from elevated testosterone levels through puberty/teenage years is undoubtedly a big advantage that would take a LOT of work to undo - to the point that allowing biological males to compete in female divisions is probably never going to be a level playing field.
I'd also add that playing sport at an elite level is not a right, it's a privilege that very few people get to experience. Without a doubt these transgender athletes could compete in their beloved sport at lower levels in the "men's" or "open" categories like the rest of us that don't have the talent to compete at the top. The majority of people are happy for them to live their life as the opposite sex/gender, but there are some areas where that just isn't possible without trampling on the rights of women.
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I genuinely don’t understand why authorities don’t stand up to the trans in sport nonsense.
You can only play sport for the sex you were born. End.
All research is just proving world is flat stuff. It’s no different to trying to prove heavyweight boxers have no advantage over flyweight. You could probably find some stats to support and blow millions on analysts etc but all you are going to prove is what is blindingly obvious.
Stand up to the nutters, move on.
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@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Caster Semenya is a different argument to Lia Thomas.
The overall "fairness in sport" argument seems the same though? In cases like Semenya, some women with DSDs generate excessive testosterone, but naturally, so this triggered new rules to regulate testosterone levels, and if necessary take medication to reduce testosterone levels. I just saw in Wiki that she appealed last year
Caster Semenya appeals to European Court of Human Rights over testosterone limit | CNN
Caster Semenya, the South African Olympic champion runner, has appealed to the European Court of Human Rights to end “discriminatory” testosterone limits imposed on female athletes.
Not sure the status, but I imagine she'll lose
Ah, ok see your point but think it is drawing a long bow to conflate it with transgender athletes making a choice.
See above - I kind of regret it since reading the last ruling on Semenya in 2019 made my head spin
... bear with me on some overnight readingFirst, I didn't know this but it seems all 2016 medallists in the Olympic women's 800m (Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui) were intersex with 46-XY karotype
Secondly, the more I read the more it's pretty clear that the phrase 'intersex' is a red-herring term used inconsistently, as non-intersex DSDs cause hormonal balances (IAAF's regulations seemed to be DSD-based). The difference in overall populations is huge - 0.018% 'intersex' vs around 1.7% 'DSD including intersex'
Then I was reading the summary of the 2019 ruling on Semenya, by the Court of Abitration for Sport on IAAF's regulations:
1 "It is human biology, not legal status or gender identity, that ultimately determines which individuals possess the physical traits which give rise to that insuperable advantage and which do not"
2 "On the basis of the scientific evidence presented by the parties, the Panel unanimously finds that endogenous testosterone is the primary driver of the sex difference in sports performance between males and females"
3 "The IAAF submitted that if the purpose of the female category is to prevent athletes who lack that testosterone-derived advantage from having to compete against athletes who possess that testosterone-derived advantage, then it is necessarily “category defeating” to permit any individuals who possess that testosterone-derived advantage to compete in that category. The majority of the Panel accepts the logic of the IAAF’s submission"
Now that's fine, but the final Court of Abitration for Sport ruling effectively covered only biological males with DSD 46-XY (i.e. Semenya etc) without looking at similar DSDs in biological XX females ... like late-onset CAH. Yet both can generate male levels of testosterone - and late onset CAH is far far more common than other DSDs
I don't blame the decision, but if they are still holding to their points 2) and 3) in 2022 then surely a testosterone-weighted principle has to be applied across the board
- So also biological XX females with DSDs?
- And similarly on M2F trans athletes
... else the points 2) and 3) from CAS, are simply b_ll_cks??
Sorry for my "rabbit hole" research digression, I'm learning and happy to be informed
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
