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@L_n_P she will lose because she has testes which produce elevated levels of testosterone giving her an unfair advantage over women. She's actually a biological male with DSD. She's also a fringe case and should not be conflated with transgender athletes.
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Caster Semenya is a different argument to Lia Thomas.
The overall "fairness in sport" argument seems the same though? In cases like Semenya, some women with DSDs generate excessive testosterone, but naturally, so this triggered new rules to regulate testosterone levels, and if necessary take medication to reduce testosterone levels. I just saw in Wiki that she appealed last year
Caster Semenya appeals to European Court of Human Rights over testosterone limit | CNN
Caster Semenya, the South African Olympic champion runner, has appealed to the European Court of Human Rights to end “discriminatory” testosterone limits imposed on female athletes.
Not sure the status, but I imagine she'll lose
Ah, ok see your point but think it is drawing a long bow to conflate it with transgender athletes making a choice.
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@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@L_n_P she will lose because she has testes which produce elevated levels of testosterone giving her an unfair advantage over women. She's actually a biological male with DSD. She's also a fringe case and should not be conflated with transgender athletes.
Yes, totally fair point, bad example. I was thinking XX females with DSDs but I see now Semenya's supposedly 46-XY which is very rare, and the rule applied by IAAF was specifically for this DSD
I was thinking DSDs more broadly as I was recently had an enlightening online chat with a biological (XX) female who has late-onset CAH, a DSD which is far more common (1-1.5%+) but mainly in a few specific communities, including hers sadly
Hormonal impacts vary case-by-case, but she had elevated testosterone for which she went through a lot of treatment - hormonal and surgery from age 12 on. Even so she went on to become a semi-pro female athlete in her 20s, so it was a pretty amazing discussion: she's very close to the science on this, and is certainly not a trans activist, in fact she's strongly feminist. I'd add more but that would probably 'out' her ...
Her view was that she was pretty okay with M2F trans inclusion in top-level female sport BUT reckons medically it needs 6-7 years on "HRT" (read that as testosterone suppression) to allow physical comparability, plus also medical gatekeeping
So interestingly, kind of where USA Swimming have just headed, but add an extra 3-4 years of testosterone suppression?
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@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Perhaps more substantively - on Lia Thomas, USA swimming have brought in new policies
Lia Thomas' future murkier as USA Swimming releases new policy, Penn teammates express support
Lia Thomas’ swimming future still remains unclear as USA Swimming released its Athlete Inclusion, Competitive Equality and Eligibility Policy on Tuesday, while her teammates released a joint statement backing their fellow competitor.
For me all the science seems pretty immature, but the key point is that fairness has to be the #1 priority in elite level sport at least ... and that this needs to apply to intersex competitors too like Caster Semenya (you'll have to google DSD, and I'd suggest Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia)
Caster Semenya is a different argument to Lia Thomas.
And interesting reporting to suggest her team mates are fully in support. Saw a number of reports that show quite a number support the new policy.
(Also a number of stories doing a bit of a hit on Thomas and less than savoury behavior in and around the changing rooms.)
Well, boys will be boys.
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@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@L_n_P she will lose because she has testes which produce elevated levels of testosterone giving her an unfair advantage over women. She's actually a biological male with DSD. She's also a fringe case and should not be conflated with transgender athletes.
Yes, totally fair point, bad example. I was thinking XX females with DSDs but I see now Semenya's supposedly 46-XY which is very rare, and the rule applied by IAAF was specifically for this DSD
I was thinking DSDs more broadly as I was recently had an enlightening online chat with a biological (XX) female who has late-onset CAH, a DSD which is far more common (1-1.5%+) but mainly in a few specific communities, including hers sadly
Hormonal impacts vary case-by-case, but she had elevated testosterone for which she went through a lot of treatment - hormonal and surgery from age 12 on. Even so she went on to become a semi-pro female athlete in her 20s, so it was a pretty amazing discussion: she's very close to the science on this, and is certainly not a trans activist, in fact she's strongly feminist. I'd add more but that would probably 'out' her ...
Her view was that she was pretty okay with M2F trans inclusion in top-level female sport BUT reckons medically it needs 6-7 years on "HRT" (read that as testosterone suppression) to allow physical comparability, plus also medical gatekeeping
So interestingly, kind of where USA Swimming have just headed, but add an extra 3-4 years of testosterone suppression?
"6-7 years" doesn't sound particularly scientific, and I think the jury is still out on that. Benefitting from elevated testosterone levels through puberty/teenage years is undoubtedly a big advantage that would take a LOT of work to undo - to the point that allowing biological males to compete in female divisions is probably never going to be a level playing field.
I'd also add that playing sport at an elite level is not a right, it's a privilege that very few people get to experience. Without a doubt these transgender athletes could compete in their beloved sport at lower levels in the "men's" or "open" categories like the rest of us that don't have the talent to compete at the top. The majority of people are happy for them to live their life as the opposite sex/gender, but there are some areas where that just isn't possible without trampling on the rights of women.
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I genuinely don’t understand why authorities don’t stand up to the trans in sport nonsense.
You can only play sport for the sex you were born. End.
All research is just proving world is flat stuff. It’s no different to trying to prove heavyweight boxers have no advantage over flyweight. You could probably find some stats to support and blow millions on analysts etc but all you are going to prove is what is blindingly obvious.
Stand up to the nutters, move on.
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@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Caster Semenya is a different argument to Lia Thomas.
The overall "fairness in sport" argument seems the same though? In cases like Semenya, some women with DSDs generate excessive testosterone, but naturally, so this triggered new rules to regulate testosterone levels, and if necessary take medication to reduce testosterone levels. I just saw in Wiki that she appealed last year
Caster Semenya appeals to European Court of Human Rights over testosterone limit | CNN
Caster Semenya, the South African Olympic champion runner, has appealed to the European Court of Human Rights to end “discriminatory” testosterone limits imposed on female athletes.
Not sure the status, but I imagine she'll lose
Ah, ok see your point but think it is drawing a long bow to conflate it with transgender athletes making a choice.
See above - I kind of regret it since reading the last ruling on Semenya in 2019 made my head spin
... bear with me on some overnight readingFirst, I didn't know this but it seems all 2016 medallists in the Olympic women's 800m (Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui) were intersex with 46-XY karotype
Secondly, the more I read the more it's pretty clear that the phrase 'intersex' is a red-herring term used inconsistently, as non-intersex DSDs cause hormonal balances (IAAF's regulations seemed to be DSD-based). The difference in overall populations is huge - 0.018% 'intersex' vs around 1.7% 'DSD including intersex'
Then I was reading the summary of the 2019 ruling on Semenya, by the Court of Abitration for Sport on IAAF's regulations:
1 "It is human biology, not legal status or gender identity, that ultimately determines which individuals possess the physical traits which give rise to that insuperable advantage and which do not"
2 "On the basis of the scientific evidence presented by the parties, the Panel unanimously finds that endogenous testosterone is the primary driver of the sex difference in sports performance between males and females"
3 "The IAAF submitted that if the purpose of the female category is to prevent athletes who lack that testosterone-derived advantage from having to compete against athletes who possess that testosterone-derived advantage, then it is necessarily “category defeating” to permit any individuals who possess that testosterone-derived advantage to compete in that category. The majority of the Panel accepts the logic of the IAAF’s submission"
Now that's fine, but the final Court of Abitration for Sport ruling effectively covered only biological males with DSD 46-XY (i.e. Semenya etc) without looking at similar DSDs in biological XX females ... like late-onset CAH. Yet both can generate male levels of testosterone - and late onset CAH is far far more common than other DSDs
I don't blame the decision, but if they are still holding to their points 2) and 3) in 2022 then surely a testosterone-weighted principle has to be applied across the board
- So also biological XX females with DSDs?
- And similarly on M2F trans athletes
... else the points 2) and 3) from CAS, are simply b_ll_cks??
Sorry for my "rabbit hole" research digression, I'm learning and happy to be informed -
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Caster Semenya is a different argument to Lia Thomas.
The overall "fairness in sport" argument seems the same though? In cases like Semenya, some women with DSDs generate excessive testosterone, but naturally, so this triggered new rules to regulate testosterone levels, and if necessary take medication to reduce testosterone levels. I just saw in Wiki that she appealed last year
Caster Semenya appeals to European Court of Human Rights over testosterone limit | CNN
Caster Semenya, the South African Olympic champion runner, has appealed to the European Court of Human Rights to end “discriminatory” testosterone limits imposed on female athletes.
Not sure the status, but I imagine she'll lose
Ah, ok see your point but think it is drawing a long bow to conflate it with transgender athletes making a choice.
See above - I kind of regret it since reading the last ruling on Semenya in 2019 made my head spin
... bear with me on some overnight readingFirst, I didn't know this but it seems all 2016 medallists in the Olympic women's 800m (Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui) were intersex with 46-XY karotype
Secondly, the more I read the more it's pretty clear that the phrase 'intersex' is a red-herring term used inconsistently, as non-intersex DSDs cause hormonal balances (IAAF's regulations seemed to be DSD-based). The difference in overall populations is huge - 0.018% 'intersex' vs around 1.7% 'DSD including intersex'
Then I was reading the summary of the 2019 ruling on Semenya, by the Court of Abitration for Sport on IAAF's regulations:
1 "It is human biology, not legal status or gender identity, that ultimately determines which individuals possess the physical traits which give rise to that insuperable advantage and which do not"
2 "On the basis of the scientific evidence presented by the parties, the Panel unanimously finds that endogenous testosterone is the primary driver of the sex difference in sports performance between males and females"
3 "The IAAF submitted that if the purpose of the female category is to prevent athletes who lack that testosterone-derived advantage from having to compete against athletes who possess that testosterone-derived advantage, then it is necessarily “category defeating” to permit any individuals who possess that testosterone-derived advantage to compete in that category. The majority of the Panel accepts the logic of the IAAF’s submission"
Now that's fine, but the final Court of Abitration for Sport ruling effectively covered only biological males with DSD 46-XY (i.e. Semenya etc) without looking at similar DSDs in biological XX females ... like late-onset CAH. Yet both can generate male levels of testosterone - and late onset CAH is far far more common than other DSDs
I don't blame the decision, but if they are still holding to their points 2) and 3) in 2022 then surely a testosterone-weighted principle has to be applied across the board
- So also biological XX females with DSDs?
- And similarly on M2F trans athletes
... else the points 2) and 3) from CAS, are simply b_ll_cks??
Sorry for my "rabbit hole" research digression, I'm learning and happy to be informedSheesh. You expect me to read and make sense of that on a Saturday evening? (Or like any evening for that matter ... )
Will peruse in the a.m. ....
I do recall that the ruling on Semenya seemed to be specific to the athletes in her event, and that they all had the same issue... but can't remember much more.
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@booboo After the 6N, right?
No answers, just sharing "learnings" as I never looked at this before
CAS's position on "sex in sport" re-Semenya just seems illogical if taken in isolation (a stop-gap measure which I can understand)
And I don't think participating in elite-level sport is a Human Rights issue too ... I half expect the ECHR to not hear it at all for that reason
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@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
"6-7 years" doesn't sound particularly scientific, and I think the jury is still out on that. Benefitting from elevated testosterone levels through puberty/teenage years is undoubtedly a big advantage that would take a LOT of work to undo - to the point that allowing biological males to compete in female divisions is probably never going to be a level playing field.
Yeah, just found it interesting she thought a longer period was needed than we're ever hearing talked about at all. She follows the science, was on puberty blockers, and then testosterone blockers due to her DSD ... quite similar to a trans woman, while being XX female ... and a decent athlete, if not elite-level
She sees a role for medical gatekeeping (case-by-case) to look at other developmental advantages like bone density that occur during puberty
Good to talk to someone like that, without the gender ideology aspect coming into it at all
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Oh goodie, the doing away with gender specific uniforms will open up the ability to wear the official school brassiere by XY chromosome students with no questions asked or fingers pointed now!
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"Having a head boy and head girl “just didn’t sit right” with the school’s principal and deputy principal, so they introduced four head student positions instead.
“We didn’t want to define the students by the gender for those roles,” said Kylie Horgan, deputy principal. “We have got a lot of gender-neutral students, probably a higher percentage than most schools, which is great, we celebrate that."
So no difference other than you now have to ensure there's always at least two females.
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I can see how teenagers would be drawn to made up nonsense like "gender fluid", but adults should know better.
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@antipodean how long is it going to be, before some boy tries to enrol at a Girls School, or a Girl at an all Boys one and the media jump all over it claiming sexism/genderism/whatthefuckeverism
THE.WORLD.BE.FUCKEDED
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@taniwharugby said in Stupid shit you see on the internet:
@antipodean how long is it going to be, before some boy tries to enrol at a Girls School, or a Girl at an all Boys one and the media jump all over it claiming sexism/genderism/whatthefuckeverism
THE.WORLD.BE.FUCKEDED
A locals girls school (prep / private) has a student who wants to dress as a boy & be referred to as a boy.
My neighbours daughter goes there and she thinks it's not a big deal at all - basically just part of the way people are. Which is nice for trans people. The parents, on the whole, are very supportive of the situation as well. At least they were until one parent asked "ok, but what happens when a boy who wants to be a girl wants to enrol there" which apparently has changed peoples views somewhat ...
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@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Going to suggest we split the non-sport Trans debate out of the sports talk stuff.
Because I think there are different issues at play.
And if I sober up any time soon I shall do it. If any if you other mods see an opportunity and have the time ...
It's all related and leads to the completely absurd situations like males competing in female sports. We've got to stop shoving this absolute garbage down kids throats.
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@taniwharugby said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@antipodean how long is it going to be, before some boy tries to enrol at a Girls School, or a Girl at an all Boys one and the media jump all over it claiming sexism/genderism/whatthefuckeverism
THE.WORLD.BE.FUCKEDED
To be fair, we had a girl enrolled in our 6th form class at Whangarei Boys'. In 1976. Nobody died.
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@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@booboo said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Going to suggest we split the non-sport Trans debate out of the sports talk stuff.
Because I think there are different issues at play.
And if I sober up any time soon I shall do it. If any if you other mods see an opportunity and have the time ...
It's all related and leads to the completely absurd situations like males competing in female sports. We've got to stop shoving this absolute garbage down kids throats.
Kids don't usually care, and for under 12s, sports are generally not able to be separated by gender anyway (by law - S49 of the Human Rights Act) so it doesn't really come up (and legally can't). I don't want to get into the legal niceties around additional gendered events as a means of encouraging participation, but the general reasons behind that legal restriction is that gender/sex don't have a serious impact on sports for under 12s (there will no doubt be examples to the contrary, but that's where the line was drawn as a balance between inclusivity and safety).
For all the hypotheticals, can anyone point to a NZ-specific example of high school sports where it ever actually happened and the trans girl was the new clear best? Usually the complaints are that girls can't play in the boys competition which means they can't play at all since there is no girls competition, but maybe there are some examples somewhere of trans girls ruining competitions.
There are also trans boys and men overseas who have to compete in women's divisions etc because of these types of laws, which doesn't seem to work out that well either.
Also, what's Parliament's interest in legislating this? From their perspective, in terms of sports legislation currently active, the main thing they care about is participation in physically active sports and recreation which goes back to the benefits like cost savings to the health system from lifelong physical activity. If it was purely about things like competition and results, the legislation and funding priorities would be different. With that in mind, why would or should Parliament get involved?
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
