All Blacks 2022
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It is interesting that everyone is pinpointing and talking about the time (Lions series) when it was obvious the ABs had stopped innovating and after that time the pack slowly caught up and now NZ rugby is in a pickle of sorts, behind the pack with only 18 test matches to go before a world cup.
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You can see the developments in the Six Nations that counter the rush defense. Playing very deep in the backs with very deep passes, getting go forward up the middle with your big ball running tighties, a different strategic kicking game, and different tactics at the breakdown(Jeff Wilson highlighted on the Breakdown). Unfortunately, none of these "innovations" come from NZ.
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@crazy-horse said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@kirwan said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:
Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.
Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.
What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs
Don't really rate Gatland... in that Lions series we won the first one comfortably, in those last two tests the Lions focused on rushing defence, we didn't adapt, so we were very predictable on attack, making it way too easy for them to nullify us.
So Gatland adjusted his tactics and nullified our attack, and our coaches didn't handle it and it's Gatland you don't rate?
Just trying to follow the logic.
Everyone constantly uses a rushing defence, it was hardly tactical rocket science by Gatland to focus on it even more as everyone knew our attack was always going to be far more lethal than theirs - it was up to our playmakers 9 & 10 to adjust to the rushing defence by kicking into space behind them with wiper kicks etc turning the Lions around... one of the very few times we did that was in the 3rd test in the last 10 minutes where we camped in their half, ABs won a penalty giving us a very handy shot at goal, but for some strange reason the ref reversed the penalty & the match ended in a draw.
Adapting to the rush defense has proven to be not so easy for us. Five years on and we are still pretty much impotent against it. Have to give that Lions team credit.
we did fine in the first test. Hit the rush at the interface between the ruck and the 10, lots of inside balls and diagonal running.
I don't think chips are the answer to rush, it's fast ruck ball. Recycle hard, go again, make the rush keep rushing and get tired. Reap the rewards at the end of the game. We just suffer int eh forwards, so get horrifically static ball, and our forwards are no longer as good ball players as the NH
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
we did fine in the first test.
also looked good in the 2nd until SBW's card.
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You can see the developments in the Six Nations that counter the rush defense. Playing very deep in the backs with very deep passes, getting go forward up the middle with your big ball running tighties, a different strategic kicking game, and different tactics at the breakdown(Jeff Wilson highlighted on the Breakdown). Unfortunately, none of these "innovations" come from NZ.
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2022:
You can see the developments in the Six Nations that counter the rush defense. Playing very deep in the backs with very deep passes, getting go forward up the middle with your big ball running tighties, a different strategic kicking game, and different tactics at the breakdown(Jeff Wilson highlighted on the Breakdown). Unfortunately, none of these "innovations" come from NZ.
lots of good old fashioned runarounds too, like Sexton has been doing for years, to get the ball wider AND provide the defense with one more guy to think about rather than just aiming up and smashing blokes
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@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2022:
You can see the developments in the Six Nations that counter the rush defense. Playing very deep in the backs with very deep passes, getting go forward up the middle with your big ball running tighties, a different strategic kicking game, and different tactics at the breakdown(Jeff Wilson highlighted on the Breakdown). Unfortunately, none of these "innovations" come from NZ.
lots of good old fashioned runarounds too, like Sexton has been doing for years, to get the ball wider AND provide the defense with one more guy to think about rather than just aiming up and smashing blokes
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2022:
You can see the developments in the Six Nations that counter the rush defense. Playing very deep in the backs with very deep passes, getting go forward up the middle with your big ball running tighties, a different strategic kicking game, and different tactics at the breakdown(Jeff Wilson highlighted on the Breakdown). Unfortunately, none of these "innovations" come from NZ.
lots of good old fashioned runarounds too, like Sexton has been doing for years, to get the ball wider AND provide the defense with one more guy to think about rather than just aiming up and smashing blokes
Let's bring back some good old Going brothers triple scissors.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2022:
You can see the developments in the Six Nations that counter the rush defense. Playing very deep in the backs with very deep passes, getting go forward up the middle with your big ball running tighties, a different strategic kicking game, and different tactics at the breakdown(Jeff Wilson highlighted on the Breakdown). Unfortunately, none of these "innovations" come from NZ.
lots of good old fashioned runarounds too, like Sexton has been doing for years, to get the ball wider AND provide the defense with one more guy to think about rather than just aiming up and smashing blokes
Let's bring back some good old Going brothers triple scissors.
@crucial Sadly most people on the Fern would be too young to have ever seen them play live (not me though!) but they were certainly great to watch with their tricky moves coming when least expected.
Even a momentary glimpse of the old Okara Park with a crowd that would have pleased the North Auckland RFU (as it was known in those days) Treasurer.
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@crucial Sadly most people on the Fern would be too young to have ever seen them play live (not me though!) but they were certainly great to watch with their tricky moves coming when least expected.
Even a momentary glimpse of the old Okara Park with a crowd that would have pleased the North Auckland RFU (as it was known in those days) Treasurer.
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@crucial There as a couple of Sid and Brian Going moves included in the youtube clip I have just this minute attached above in my earlier post. Next time I see Keith Quinn I will see if he can ask his acquaintances at TVNZ if they have any.
And here is a bit more on the Going family
This one refers to to Triple Sissors Move
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/ken-going-the-battle-of-his-life/JZKBYBO7S6TUJ2RF5IJYB3E67U/ -
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:
Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.
Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.
What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs
Don't really rate Gatland... in that Lions series we won the first one comfortably, in those last two tests the Lions focused on rushing defence, we didn't adapt, so we were very predictable on attack, making it way too easy for them to nullify us.
So Gatland adjusted his tactics and nullified our attack, and our coaches didn't handle it and it's Gatland you don't rate?
Just trying to follow the logic.
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@toddy said in All Blacks 2022:
@machpants I'm hoping that for the first time in 5-6 years the Crusaders AB's are pacing themselves. Taylor has previously played like a man possessed during Super rugby only to then limp through test matches. Whitelock doesn't appear to be putting it all the line at the moment. Mo'unga looks only slightly better than Garden-Bachop etc.
It's what I'm hoping anyway.
I don't care that they are being shown up. I think it is good for the ABs (if the selectors take notice)
Other sides are playing a more physical style against them and not allowing their weak runners and 'soaking' tacklers any leeway.
If this means that the ABs ditch the Bridges, Havilis, Taylors and Moodys then all the better.
Their real weakness is the loose forwards though. Lots of very busy but non-dominant players.
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@toddy said in All Blacks 2022:
@machpants I'm hoping that for the first time in 5-6 years the Crusaders AB's are pacing themselves. Taylor has previously played like a man possessed during Super rugby only to then limp through test matches. Whitelock doesn't appear to be putting it all the line at the moment. Mo'unga looks only slightly better than Garden-Bachop etc.
It's what I'm hoping anyway.
I don't care that they are being shown up. I think it is good for the ABs (if the selectors take notice)
Other sides are playing a more physical style against them and not allowing their weak runners and 'soaking' tacklers any leeway.
If this means that the ABs ditch the Bridges, Havilis, Taylors and Moodys then all the better.
Their real weakness is the loose forwards though. Lots of very busy but non-dominant players.
A good, winning coach would have been able to predict those problems and sort them out in the first 1 or 2 games....
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@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
I read the opening paragraph, and had a grin, Reason is hardly a messiah on watching rugby.
I remember in 2015 when one Richie McCaw missed 2 tackles on Tevita Li in the Blues match (I think he was playing for Blues then), and every rugby forum etc was yelling he to bloody old,, dump him get in the newbies etc. Seems the coaches didn't read them then and doubt whether they will now. -
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@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
I read the opening paragraph, and had a grin, Reason is hardly a messiah on watching rugby.
I remember in 2015 when one Richie McCaw missed 2 tackles on Tevita Li in the Blues match (I think he was playing for Blues then), and every rugby forum etc was yelling he to bloody old,, dump him get in the newbies etc. Seems the coaches didn't read them then and doubt whether they will now.@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
I read the opening paragraph, and had a grin, Reason is hardly a messiah on watching rugby.
I remember in 2015 when one Richie McCaw missed 2 tackles on Tevita Li in the Blues match (I think he was playing for Blues then), and every rugby forum etc was yelling he to bloody old,, dump him get in the newbies etc. Seems the coaches didn't read them then and doubt whether they will now.To be fair, the coaches/selectors in 2015 had earned a bit more trust...
Of course, I haven't even clicked on the link, so I'm an authority.
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@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
I read the opening paragraph, and had a grin, Reason is hardly a messiah on watching rugby.
I remember in 2015 when one Richie McCaw missed 2 tackles on Tevita Li in the Blues match (I think he was playing for Blues then), and every rugby forum etc was yelling he to bloody old,, dump him get in the newbies etc. Seems the coaches didn't read them then and doubt whether they will now. -
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@kirwan said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:
Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.
Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.
What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs
Don't really rate Gatland... in that Lions series we won the first one comfortably, in those last two tests the Lions focused on rushing defence, we didn't adapt, so we were very predictable on attack, making it way too easy for them to nullify us.
So Gatland adjusted his tactics and nullified our attack, and our coaches didn't handle it and it's Gatland you don't rate?
Just trying to follow the logic.
Everyone constantly uses a rushing defence, it was hardly tactical rocket science by Gatland to focus on it even more as everyone knew our attack was always going to be far more lethal than theirs - it was up to our playmakers 9 & 10 to adjust to the rushing defence by kicking into space behind them with wiper kicks etc turning the Lions around... one of the very few times we did that was in the 3rd test in the last 10 minutes where we camped in their half, ABs won a penalty giving us a very handy shot at goal, but for some strange reason the ref reversed the penalty & the match ended in a draw.
Adapting to the rush defense has proven to be not so easy for us. Five years on and we are still pretty much impotent against it. Have to give that Lions team credit.
we did fine in the first test. Hit the rush at the interface between the ruck and the 10, lots of inside balls and diagonal running.
I don't think chips are the answer to rush, it's fast ruck ball. Recycle hard, go again, make the rush keep rushing and get tired. Reap the rewards at the end of the game. We just suffer int eh forwards, so get horrifically static ball, and our forwards are no longer as good ball players as the NH
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@kirwan said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:
Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.
Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.
What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs
Don't really rate Gatland... in that Lions series we won the first one comfortably, in those last two tests the Lions focused on rushing defence, we didn't adapt, so we were very predictable on attack, making it way too easy for them to nullify us.
So Gatland adjusted his tactics and nullified our attack, and our coaches didn't handle it and it's Gatland you don't rate?
Just trying to follow the logic.
Everyone constantly uses a rushing defence, it was hardly tactical rocket science by Gatland to focus on it even more as everyone knew our attack was always going to be far more lethal than theirs - it was up to our playmakers 9 & 10 to adjust to the rushing defence by kicking into space behind them with wiper kicks etc turning the Lions around... one of the very few times we did that was in the 3rd test in the last 10 minutes where we camped in their half, ABs won a penalty giving us a very handy shot at goal, but for some strange reason the ref reversed the penalty & the match ended in a draw.
Adapting to the rush defense has proven to be not so easy for us. Five years on and we are still pretty much impotent against it. Have to give that Lions team credit.
we did fine in the first test. Hit the rush at the interface between the ruck and the 10, lots of inside balls and diagonal running.
I don't think chips are the answer to rush, it's fast ruck ball. Recycle hard, go again, make the rush keep rushing and get tired. Reap the rewards at the end of the game. We just suffer int eh forwards, so get horrifically static ball, and our forwards are no longer as good ball players as the NH
There's a lot of times you can't get quick recycled ball though, when you don't make any ground you have to use a smart kicking game... agree that you don't want to use the short kicking game too much to counter the rushing defence, on most occasions would execute longer kicks, angled kicks towards the sideline or corners into plenty of space so they only have the option of attacking from one side of the field from deep.
Reckon our forwards ball running is not as good as what it was because they don't take it through enough phases & also don't consistently get enough numbers to clean out, giving us static ball... just about doing the basics properly, Ireland & France did that, which is why they stuffed us so badly in the forwards.
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@dan54 That was just further proof that he didn't give a shit about Super Rugby, making guys like Tevita Li look like world beaters.
@african-monkey said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 That was just further proof that he didn't give a shit about Super Rugby, making guys like Tevita Li look like world beaters.
Or maybe it's what everyone know? It is not really reasonable to expect players to be on top of game all year? Or simply that he was caught like Taylor and Whitelock going wrong way?
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my main takeaway from that article is
jesus NZ A would suck right now.
The problem is not just their age, it's how they play. Who in our entire tight 5 can sit a guy on his ass in a tackle, or run through him, at test level? I would pretty much say the probably #3 hooker can fucking run, and Ofa can hit (but gets far too many wrong). That's it.
you can extend that to the whole pack. Cane can hit. Not many others can. And not many can run over a bloke (at test level, not Super Rugby, don't fucking start). We have depowered our rugby to play this high tempo skill stuff.
Problem being our skills aren't there, and you don't get to play tempo just because you want to.
At least the last time this happened, Henry came in an took immediate steps. We haven't even started rectifying it. Because we appear to have lost out single-minded purpose as a rugby nation.
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my main takeaway from that article is
jesus NZ A would suck right now.
The problem is not just their age, it's how they play. Who in our entire tight 5 can sit a guy on his ass in a tackle, or run through him, at test level? I would pretty much say the probably #3 hooker can fucking run, and Ofa can hit (but gets far too many wrong). That's it.
you can extend that to the whole pack. Cane can hit. Not many others can. And not many can run over a bloke (at test level, not Super Rugby, don't fucking start). We have depowered our rugby to play this high tempo skill stuff.
Problem being our skills aren't there, and you don't get to play tempo just because you want to.
At least the last time this happened, Henry came in an took immediate steps. We haven't even started rectifying it. Because we appear to have lost out single-minded purpose as a rugby nation.
@mariner4life The good news is our new coach identified this problem prior to being appointed.
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my main takeaway from that article is
jesus NZ A would suck right now.
The problem is not just their age, it's how they play. Who in our entire tight 5 can sit a guy on his ass in a tackle, or run through him, at test level? I would pretty much say the probably #3 hooker can fucking run, and Ofa can hit (but gets far too many wrong). That's it.
you can extend that to the whole pack. Cane can hit. Not many others can. And not many can run over a bloke (at test level, not Super Rugby, don't fucking start). We have depowered our rugby to play this high tempo skill stuff.
Problem being our skills aren't there, and you don't get to play tempo just because you want to.
At least the last time this happened, Henry came in an took immediate steps. We haven't even started rectifying it. Because we appear to have lost out single-minded purpose as a rugby nation.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
We have depowered our rugby to play this high tempo skill stuff.Problem being our skills aren't there, and you don't get to play tempo just because you want to.
I started typing something out yesterday along the same lines then deleted it because I couldn't be bothered. We are trying to play too fast and we don't have the skills to consistently pull it off.
