All Blacks 2022
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@Crucial I don't think you've watched France enough recently, they are by far the most innvative and attacking team out there. And rather than waiting for opposition mistakes, they actually create attacking opportunites
ZOMFG that's possible? Yes it is, so Galthie has your salary already, because what you suggest is play like France
Also Ireland are not the robots of old, even England are trying to play unstructured rugby
Boks, nah dull as shit
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial I don't think you've watched France enough recently, they are by far the most innvative and attacking team out there. And rather than waiting for opposition mistakes, they actually create attacking opportunites
ZOMFG that's possible? Yes it is, so Galthie has your salary already
ALso Irealnd are not the robots of old, even England are trying to play unstructured rugby
Boks, nah dull as shit
They aren't complete robots (and I did hesitate to mention France) but if you can negate their attack they will resort to 10/11 man rugby for periods to control possession.
Any discussion like this is by nature a lot of generlisation but its also very fair to say that a lot of the way AB play and coaching is descibed here is generalisation as well. eg we don't always use a passive defence, we sometimes try a full court press and we've even seen the innovative trial of using an unexpected defensive shooter (TJP from behind the defensive line) to disrupt.
I think my overall point is that I don't think Foster and co are just using an old pattern and crossing their fingers. They are trying things. It's just that they don't appear to have latched onto the goose that lays the golden egg yet. -
I think most of them are picking Reece? He is playing well.
I think you're right though, that back three is the most likely. Jordie was probably the best AB last year and he played at fullback (he even topped the super scientific TSF aggregate of MOTM polls)
I think they'll be reluctant to move or demote Jordie
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2022:
I think most of them are picking Reece? He is playing well.
I think you're right though, that back three is the most likely. Jordie was probably the best AB last year and he played at fullback (he even topped the super scientific TSF aggregate of MOTM polls)
I think they'll be reluctant to move or demote Jordie
100% agree this makes sense....my only "concern" and reason i'd like to see jordie given a go at 12, is we've had some world class outside backs in reece, jordan and jordie for the last couple of years...but i feel we havent even seen their full capabilities because theyre being hampered by a misfiring midfield
too often when we've seen jordie play well is returning the ball from deep...and thats come after we've lost it in midfield and theyve booted it back
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@Duluth said in All Blacks 2022:
I think most of them are picking Reece? He is playing well.
I think you're right though, that back three is the most likely. Jordie was probably the best AB last year and he played at fullback (he even topped the super scientific TSF aggregate of MOTM polls)
I think they'll be reluctant to move or demote Jordie
100% agree this makes sense....my only "concern" and reason i'd like to see jordie given a go at 12, is we've had some world class outside backs in reece, jordan and jordie for the last couple of years...but i feel we havent even seen their full capabilities because theyre being hampered by a misfiring midfield
too often when we've seen jordie play well is returning the ball from deep...and thats come after we've lost it in midfield and theyve booted it back
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2022:
I think most of them are picking Reece? He is playing well.
I think you're right though, that back three is the most likely. Jordie was probably the best AB last year and he played at fullback (he even topped the super scientific TSF aggregate of MOTM polls)
I think they'll be reluctant to move or demote Jordie
100% agree this makes sense....my only "concern" and reason i'd like to see jordie given a go at 12, is we've had some world class outside backs in reece, jordan and jordie for the last couple of years...but i feel we havent even seen their full capabilities because theyre being hampered by a misfiring midfield
too often when we've seen jordie play well is returning the ball from deep...and thats come after we've lost it in midfield and theyve booted it back
So Jordie can play in both the midfield and back three at the same time?
Our midfield problem last year was that because RI was still coming on we had to use ALB at 13 rather than 12 and DH filled the gap. QT was also very raw.
Both RI and QT have come on well this super season plus we have Goodhue back, Ennor looking to be dropped and a new weapon in RTS.
Lets settle on a midfield without DH first before moving Jordie. -
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2022:
I think most of them are picking Reece? He is playing well.
I think you're right though, that back three is the most likely. Jordie was probably the best AB last year and he played at fullback (he even topped the super scientific TSF aggregate of MOTM polls)
I think they'll be reluctant to move or demote Jordie
100% agree this makes sense....my only "concern" and reason i'd like to see jordie given a go at 12, is we've had some world class outside backs in reece, jordan and jordie for the last couple of years...but i feel we havent even seen their full capabilities because theyre being hampered by a misfiring midfield
too often when we've seen jordie play well is returning the ball from deep...and thats come after we've lost it in midfield and theyve booted it back
So Jordie can play in both the midfield and back three at the same time?
Our midfield problem last year was that because RI was still coming on we had to use ALB at 13 rather than 12 and DH filled the gap. QT was also very raw.
Both RI and QT have come on well this super season plus we have Goodhue back, Ennor looking to be dropped and a new weapon in RTS.
Lets settle on a midfield without DH first before moving Jordie. -
Will Jordan is a superb attacking player, but I think is competing with Reece for the right wing spot.
Jordie has to be a lock for 15, unless he's shoehorned into 12. Jordan is awesome going forward, but the reality is that there is a lot more space at Super than in Tests, and kicking and defence is far more important at 15. I love him in the side at 14, but not convinced about him as a front line 15 yet. If he's going to be there at the RWC (and I suspect Jordie has that slot right now), then he needs to be playing there, to a high level, right now.
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I think Jordie at 15 makes the most sense and QT or Goodhue at 12. In saying that if RTS keeps performing a BB, RTS, RI combo would work well considering they already play together.
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@Crucial obviously not, but jordan can be as good at 15, in my opinion and we have reece 14 and clarke 11.....seem likes a way to actually get the best players on the field
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial obviously not, but jordan can be as good at 15, in my opinion and we have reece 14 and clarke 11.....seem likes a way to actually get the best players on the field
and who is your impact reserve?
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@chimoaus who would be the 5th and final midfielder in your squad? Sullivan, TUJ or the incumbent David Havili
@FakatavaFuture said in All Blacks 2022:
@chimoaus who would be the 5th and final midfielder in your squad? Sullivan, TUJ or the incumbent David Havili
I think we need to be working on another 13 as 12 is a little congested with Goodhue, RTS, ALB, HAV, T(P)UJ. Sullivan strikes me as a Conrad Smith type player who could develop as a quality 13.
Goodhue is the unknown really, can he go back to 13, does he have the speed anymore or is he a 12.
I think Nonu/Smith was the blueprint and we have lacked a bit of directness and size at 12 meaning when RM and HAVS were 10/12 they were just too small. I guess we did try NL at 12 for awhile but for whatever reason they werent that keen on him there.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2022:
I think Nonu/Smith was the blueprint
it was A blueprint yes
but we are in for a world of hurt if we keep trying to replicate that
C Smith had great vision and good distribution, and a slightly underrated running game. Always took good options. Great defensive communicator
But was made to look amazing because the guy at 12 was a deadset freak. Physical unit who could run through you if he wanted, but had a great wide pass, a surprisingly solid kicking game, and the vision to know when to use it. Defenses were in two minds the whole time.
We're unlikely to ever find another Nonu. Which means we need more than a Smith.
What we have is a freakishly quick centre. Find a 12 who can hold up defenses from sliding on to him, and get the ball in to his hands. That's your new blueprint
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I think Jordie at 15 makes the most sense and QT or Goodhue at 12. In saying that if RTS keeps performing a BB, RTS, RI combo would work well considering they already play together.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2022:
I think Jordie at 15 makes the most sense and QT or Goodhue at 12. In saying that if RTS keeps performing a BB, RTS, RI combo would work well considering they already play together.
What are QT's tackle stats? You can't carry Mo'unga and him in the important 10-12 channel. That's a recipe for disaster.
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@FakatavaFuture said in All Blacks 2022:
@chimoaus who would be the 5th and final midfielder in your squad? Sullivan, TUJ or the incumbent David Havili
I think we need to be working on another 13 as 12 is a little congested with Goodhue, RTS, ALB, HAV, T(P)UJ. Sullivan strikes me as a Conrad Smith type player who could develop as a quality 13.
Goodhue is the unknown really, can he go back to 13, does he have the speed anymore or is he a 12.
I think Nonu/Smith was the blueprint and we have lacked a bit of directness and size at 12 meaning when RM and HAVS were 10/12 they were just too small. I guess we did try NL at 12 for awhile but for whatever reason they werent that keen on him there.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2022:
@FakatavaFuture said in All Blacks 2022:
@chimoaus who would be the 5th and final midfielder in your squad? Sullivan, TUJ or the incumbent David Havili
I think we need to be working on another 13 as 12 is a little congested with Goodhue, RTS, ALB, HAV, T(P)UJ. Sullivan strikes me as a Conrad Smith type player who could develop as a quality 13.
Goodhue is the unknown really, can he go back to 13, does he have the speed anymore
Did he ever?
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Will Jordan is a superb attacking player, but I think is competing with Reece for the right wing spot.
Jordie has to be a lock for 15, unless he's shoehorned into 12. Jordan is awesome going forward, but the reality is that there is a lot more space at Super than in Tests, and kicking and defence is far more important at 15. I love him in the side at 14, but not convinced about him as a front line 15 yet. If he's going to be there at the RWC (and I suspect Jordie has that slot right now), then he needs to be playing there, to a high level, right now.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
Will Jordan is a superb attacking player, but I think is competing with Reece for the right wing spot.
Jordie has to be a lock for 15, unless he's shoehorned into 12. Jordan is awesome going forward, but the reality is that there is a lot more space at Super than in Tests, and kicking and defence is far more important at 15. I love him in the side at 14, but not convinced about him as a front line 15 yet. If he's going to be there at the RWC (and I suspect Jordie has that slot right now), then he needs to be playing there, to a high level, right now.
I take a somewhat different perspective in that because there's less space and opportunities in Test level rugby, you want players most capable of creating and taking advantage.
The alternative is to select plodders. ,
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Jordie is a better tackler and better under the high ball than Jordan, so defensively he's a much safer bet at 15. Jordan at 14 with a license to roam means we maximise his strengths without exposing his 'work ons'.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
Will Jordan is a superb attacking player, but I think is competing with Reece for the right wing spot.
Jordie has to be a lock for 15, unless he's shoehorned into 12. Jordan is awesome going forward, but the reality is that there is a lot more space at Super than in Tests, and kicking and defence is far more important at 15. I love him in the side at 14, but not convinced about him as a front line 15 yet. If he's going to be there at the RWC (and I suspect Jordie has that slot right now), then he needs to be playing there, to a high level, right now.
I take a somewhat different perspective in that because there's less space and opportunities in Test level rugby, you want players most capable of creating and taking advantage.
The alternative is to select plodders. ,
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
Will Jordan is a superb attacking player, but I think is competing with Reece for the right wing spot.
Jordie has to be a lock for 15, unless he's shoehorned into 12. Jordan is awesome going forward, but the reality is that there is a lot more space at Super than in Tests, and kicking and defence is far more important at 15. I love him in the side at 14, but not convinced about him as a front line 15 yet. If he's going to be there at the RWC (and I suspect Jordie has that slot right now), then he needs to be playing there, to a high level, right now.
I take a somewhat different perspective in that because there's less space and opportunities in Test level rugby, you want players most capable of creating and taking advantage.
The alternative is to select plodders. ,
there's a difference though. Jordie is really solid in attack, but not as good as Jordan. The focus though is JB is much better at kicking and defence. And not conceding points or territory is really important at test level.
So yeah, there's a big gap between Jordan, Jordie and George
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
Will Jordan is a superb attacking player, but I think is competing with Reece for the right wing spot.
Jordie has to be a lock for 15, unless he's shoehorned into 12. Jordan is awesome going forward, but the reality is that there is a lot more space at Super than in Tests, and kicking and defence is far more important at 15. I love him in the side at 14, but not convinced about him as a front line 15 yet. If he's going to be there at the RWC (and I suspect Jordie has that slot right now), then he needs to be playing there, to a high level, right now.
I take a somewhat different perspective in that because there's less space and opportunities in Test level rugby, you want players most capable of creating and taking advantage.
The alternative is to select plodders. ,
there's a difference though. Jordie is really solid in attack, but not as good as Jordan. The focus though is JB is much better at kicking and defence. And not conceding points or territory is really important at test level.
So yeah, there's a big gap between Jordan, Jordie and George
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
Will Jordan is a superb attacking player, but I think is competing with Reece for the right wing spot.
Jordie has to be a lock for 15, unless he's shoehorned into 12. Jordan is awesome going forward, but the reality is that there is a lot more space at Super than in Tests, and kicking and defence is far more important at 15. I love him in the side at 14, but not convinced about him as a front line 15 yet. If he's going to be there at the RWC (and I suspect Jordie has that slot right now), then he needs to be playing there, to a high level, right now.
I take a somewhat different perspective in that because there's less space and opportunities in Test level rugby, you want players most capable of creating and taking advantage.
The alternative is to select plodders. ,
there's a difference though. Jordie is really solid in attack, but not as good as Jordan. The focus though is JB is much better at kicking and defence. And not conceding points or territory is really important at test level.
So yeah, there's a big gap between Jordan, Jordie and George
Why did you bring George back into the picture? If he and Ennor disappear this year we will be part of the way to a solution
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
Will Jordan is a superb attacking player, but I think is competing with Reece for the right wing spot.
Jordie has to be a lock for 15, unless he's shoehorned into 12. Jordan is awesome going forward, but the reality is that there is a lot more space at Super than in Tests, and kicking and defence is far more important at 15. I love him in the side at 14, but not convinced about him as a front line 15 yet. If he's going to be there at the RWC (and I suspect Jordie has that slot right now), then he needs to be playing there, to a high level, right now.
I take a somewhat different perspective in that because there's less space and opportunities in Test level rugby, you want players most capable of creating and taking advantage.
The alternative is to select plodders. ,
there's a difference though. Jordie is really solid in attack, but not as good as Jordan. The focus though is JB is much better at kicking and defence. And not conceding points or territory is really important at test level.
So yeah, there's a big gap between Jordan, Jordie and George
Why did you bring George back into the picture? If he and Ennor disappear this year we will be part of the way to a solution
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@Crucial TBH he has been part of Fozzies picture, and given he is still probably playing to the same levels as previously selected from, someone needs to push him out...
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial TBH he has been part of Fozzies picture, and given he is still probably playing to the same levels as previously selected from, someone needs to push him out...
His lifeline is that there isn't great depth in the back three. Perofeta as extra fullback cover and third 10 is a squad possibility, but then we still need wingers.
There won't be a DMac for the Ireland tests but maybe later on that will help shift Bridge out of the picture. -
In the backs, really, the only major problem is 2nd five.
For Ireland, assuming everyone is fit, then I'd expect Foster to pick:
9-Smith; 10-Beauden; 11-Reece; 12-????; 13-Ioane; 14-Jordan; 15-Jordie.
21-Probably Christie; 22-Moúnga; 23-a midfielder.
Halfback - we have a problem if Smith gets injured or suddenly hits his use-by date. We don't have a real gun behind him - and if Christie has to start, we've got to use TJP or Weber. In my view, Fakatava is most likely to be Smith's long-run successor, but right now we're at the mercy of World Rugby deciding we can have him this year.
First five - Unlike many, I'm pretty happy with either Beaudy or Richie. I think they're both world class. Sure, they've both got weaknesses, but you go a long way to find a first five who doesn't (unless you live in Leeston). We can win with either and having both is a luxury.
Midfield - an initial problem is that I don't clearly know who Fozzie thinks are second fives and who are centres. I don't really understand why he went from using 12. ALB; 13. Goodhue in 2019 to 12. Goodhue; 13. ALB in 2020. The former seemed to work significantly better to me. But now we've had 2021 without JG and are having 2022 without ALB; so we're still not learning the full story about Fozzie's plans. Now we've got a bunch of potential 2nd five options, who are either untried or haven't nailed the position; and Rieko and Goodhue who both seem like good options to play centre - but, still have a bit to prove at test level. And maybe Jack is Fozzie's second-five...
The wing and fullback options could be pretty settled, as long as Fozzie doesn't need Jordie to play second five. I'm not among those who thinks Will Jordan needs to be shifted from 14. He was plenty dangerous enough from there last year. And there's always dangers in disturbing what is settled - you can create more problems than you solve. That being said, it is quite possible that Jordie is our best option to play second five. Standing in the tackle, freeing his arms like Graeme West and popping offloads to our speedy outside backs - Yes boy, Yes!!!
All of that being said, by far the bigger problems are in the forwards!!!
