All Blacks 2022
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
Will Jordan is a superb attacking player, but I think is competing with Reece for the right wing spot.
Jordie has to be a lock for 15, unless he's shoehorned into 12. Jordan is awesome going forward, but the reality is that there is a lot more space at Super than in Tests, and kicking and defence is far more important at 15. I love him in the side at 14, but not convinced about him as a front line 15 yet. If he's going to be there at the RWC (and I suspect Jordie has that slot right now), then he needs to be playing there, to a high level, right now.
I take a somewhat different perspective in that because there's less space and opportunities in Test level rugby, you want players most capable of creating and taking advantage.
The alternative is to select plodders. ,
there's a difference though. Jordie is really solid in attack, but not as good as Jordan. The focus though is JB is much better at kicking and defence. And not conceding points or territory is really important at test level.
So yeah, there's a big gap between Jordan, Jordie and George
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
Will Jordan is a superb attacking player, but I think is competing with Reece for the right wing spot.
Jordie has to be a lock for 15, unless he's shoehorned into 12. Jordan is awesome going forward, but the reality is that there is a lot more space at Super than in Tests, and kicking and defence is far more important at 15. I love him in the side at 14, but not convinced about him as a front line 15 yet. If he's going to be there at the RWC (and I suspect Jordie has that slot right now), then he needs to be playing there, to a high level, right now.
I take a somewhat different perspective in that because there's less space and opportunities in Test level rugby, you want players most capable of creating and taking advantage.
The alternative is to select plodders. ,
there's a difference though. Jordie is really solid in attack, but not as good as Jordan. The focus though is JB is much better at kicking and defence. And not conceding points or territory is really important at test level.
So yeah, there's a big gap between Jordan, Jordie and George
Why did you bring George back into the picture? If he and Ennor disappear this year we will be part of the way to a solution
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
Will Jordan is a superb attacking player, but I think is competing with Reece for the right wing spot.
Jordie has to be a lock for 15, unless he's shoehorned into 12. Jordan is awesome going forward, but the reality is that there is a lot more space at Super than in Tests, and kicking and defence is far more important at 15. I love him in the side at 14, but not convinced about him as a front line 15 yet. If he's going to be there at the RWC (and I suspect Jordie has that slot right now), then he needs to be playing there, to a high level, right now.
I take a somewhat different perspective in that because there's less space and opportunities in Test level rugby, you want players most capable of creating and taking advantage.
The alternative is to select plodders. ,
there's a difference though. Jordie is really solid in attack, but not as good as Jordan. The focus though is JB is much better at kicking and defence. And not conceding points or territory is really important at test level.
So yeah, there's a big gap between Jordan, Jordie and George
Why did you bring George back into the picture? If he and Ennor disappear this year we will be part of the way to a solution
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@Crucial TBH he has been part of Fozzies picture, and given he is still probably playing to the same levels as previously selected from, someone needs to push him out...
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial TBH he has been part of Fozzies picture, and given he is still probably playing to the same levels as previously selected from, someone needs to push him out...
His lifeline is that there isn't great depth in the back three. Perofeta as extra fullback cover and third 10 is a squad possibility, but then we still need wingers.
There won't be a DMac for the Ireland tests but maybe later on that will help shift Bridge out of the picture. -
In the backs, really, the only major problem is 2nd five.
For Ireland, assuming everyone is fit, then I'd expect Foster to pick:
9-Smith; 10-Beauden; 11-Reece; 12-????; 13-Ioane; 14-Jordan; 15-Jordie.
21-Probably Christie; 22-Moúnga; 23-a midfielder.
Halfback - we have a problem if Smith gets injured or suddenly hits his use-by date. We don't have a real gun behind him - and if Christie has to start, we've got to use TJP or Weber. In my view, Fakatava is most likely to be Smith's long-run successor, but right now we're at the mercy of World Rugby deciding we can have him this year.
First five - Unlike many, I'm pretty happy with either Beaudy or Richie. I think they're both world class. Sure, they've both got weaknesses, but you go a long way to find a first five who doesn't (unless you live in Leeston). We can win with either and having both is a luxury.
Midfield - an initial problem is that I don't clearly know who Fozzie thinks are second fives and who are centres. I don't really understand why he went from using 12. ALB; 13. Goodhue in 2019 to 12. Goodhue; 13. ALB in 2020. The former seemed to work significantly better to me. But now we've had 2021 without JG and are having 2022 without ALB; so we're still not learning the full story about Fozzie's plans. Now we've got a bunch of potential 2nd five options, who are either untried or haven't nailed the position; and Rieko and Goodhue who both seem like good options to play centre - but, still have a bit to prove at test level. And maybe Jack is Fozzie's second-five...
The wing and fullback options could be pretty settled, as long as Fozzie doesn't need Jordie to play second five. I'm not among those who thinks Will Jordan needs to be shifted from 14. He was plenty dangerous enough from there last year. And there's always dangers in disturbing what is settled - you can create more problems than you solve. That being said, it is quite possible that Jordie is our best option to play second five. Standing in the tackle, freeing his arms like Graeme West and popping offloads to our speedy outside backs - Yes boy, Yes!!!
All of that being said, by far the bigger problems are in the forwards!!!
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In the backs, really, the only major problem is 2nd five.
For Ireland, assuming everyone is fit, then I'd expect Foster to pick:
9-Smith; 10-Beauden; 11-Reece; 12-????; 13-Ioane; 14-Jordan; 15-Jordie.
21-Probably Christie; 22-Moúnga; 23-a midfielder.
Halfback - we have a problem if Smith gets injured or suddenly hits his use-by date. We don't have a real gun behind him - and if Christie has to start, we've got to use TJP or Weber. In my view, Fakatava is most likely to be Smith's long-run successor, but right now we're at the mercy of World Rugby deciding we can have him this year.
First five - Unlike many, I'm pretty happy with either Beaudy or Richie. I think they're both world class. Sure, they've both got weaknesses, but you go a long way to find a first five who doesn't (unless you live in Leeston). We can win with either and having both is a luxury.
Midfield - an initial problem is that I don't clearly know who Fozzie thinks are second fives and who are centres. I don't really understand why he went from using 12. ALB; 13. Goodhue in 2019 to 12. Goodhue; 13. ALB in 2020. The former seemed to work significantly better to me. But now we've had 2021 without JG and are having 2022 without ALB; so we're still not learning the full story about Fozzie's plans. Now we've got a bunch of potential 2nd five options, who are either untried or haven't nailed the position; and Rieko and Goodhue who both seem like good options to play centre - but, still have a bit to prove at test level. And maybe Jack is Fozzie's second-five...
The wing and fullback options could be pretty settled, as long as Fozzie doesn't need Jordie to play second five. I'm not among those who thinks Will Jordan needs to be shifted from 14. He was plenty dangerous enough from there last year. And there's always dangers in disturbing what is settled - you can create more problems than you solve. That being said, it is quite possible that Jordie is our best option to play second five. Standing in the tackle, freeing his arms like Graeme West and popping offloads to our speedy outside backs - Yes boy, Yes!!!
All of that being said, by far the bigger problems are in the forwards!!!
@Chris-B you may have missed the memo, unless I misunderstood the posts from a couple of days ago, I think Fakatava has been cleared for the ABs this year.
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@Chris-B you may have missed the memo, unless I misunderstood the posts from a couple of days ago, I think Fakatava has been cleared for the ABs this year.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2022:
@Chris-B you may have missed the memo, unless I misunderstood the posts from a couple of days ago, I think Fakatava has been
cleared for the ABs this yearsuccessfully poachedFTFY
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@Chris-B you may have missed the memo, unless I misunderstood the posts from a couple of days ago, I think Fakatava has been cleared for the ABs this year.
@Crazy-Horse I have missed that memo!!! I googled him a few days ago and only found the "discussions with world rugby".
Good news - though I hope the ABs legal team read the communique carefully, because we don't want to be another Spain!
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2022:
@Chris-B you may have missed the memo, unless I misunderstood the posts from a couple of days ago, I think Fakatava has been
cleared for the ABs this yearsuccessfully poachedFTFY
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2022:
@Chris-B you may have missed the memo, unless I misunderstood the posts from a couple of days ago, I think Fakatava has been
cleared for the ABs this yearsuccessfully poachedFTFY
Given the number of Kiwis in foreign teams it never hurts to poach one or two ourselves every now and then.
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@Frank said in All Blacks 2022:
I think Caleb Clarke has huge upside and would have him as my starting 11.
That wouldn't worry me either - but, I don't think it will happen in the first test vs Ireland. I don't expect Fozzie to take many risks and will go with what he knows and then work from there.
Assuming that happens, it's quite possible that losing that first test could be the making of us.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2022:
@Chris-B you may have missed the memo, unless I misunderstood the posts from a couple of days ago, I think Fakatava has been
cleared for the ABs this yearsuccessfully poachedFTFY
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2022:
@Chris-B you may have missed the memo, unless I misunderstood the posts from a couple of days ago, I think Fakatava has been
cleared for the ABs this yearsuccessfully poachedFTFY
What's your definition of poaching?
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
Will Jordan is a superb attacking player, but I think is competing with Reece for the right wing spot.
Jordie has to be a lock for 15, unless he's shoehorned into 12. Jordan is awesome going forward, but the reality is that there is a lot more space at Super than in Tests, and kicking and defence is far more important at 15. I love him in the side at 14, but not convinced about him as a front line 15 yet. If he's going to be there at the RWC (and I suspect Jordie has that slot right now), then he needs to be playing there, to a high level, right now.
I take a somewhat different perspective in that because there's less space and opportunities in Test level rugby, you want players most capable of creating and taking advantage.
The alternative is to select plodders. ,
there's a difference though. Jordie is really solid in attack, but not as good as Jordan. The focus though is JB is much better at kicking and defence. And not conceding points or territory is really important at test level.
So yeah, there's a big gap between Jordan, Jordie and George
Why did you bring George back into the picture? If he and Ennor disappear this year we will be part of the way to a solution
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
Will Jordan is a superb attacking player, but I think is competing with Reece for the right wing spot.
Jordie has to be a lock for 15, unless he's shoehorned into 12. Jordan is awesome going forward, but the reality is that there is a lot more space at Super than in Tests, and kicking and defence is far more important at 15. I love him in the side at 14, but not convinced about him as a front line 15 yet. If he's going to be there at the RWC (and I suspect Jordie has that slot right now), then he needs to be playing there, to a high level, right now.
I take a somewhat different perspective in that because there's less space and opportunities in Test level rugby, you want players most capable of creating and taking advantage.
The alternative is to select plodders. ,
there's a difference though. Jordie is really solid in attack, but not as good as Jordan. The focus though is JB is much better at kicking and defence. And not conceding points or territory is really important at test level.
So yeah, there's a big gap between Jordan, Jordie and George
Why did you bring George back into the picture? If he and Ennor disappear this year we will be part of the way to a solution
To contrast with the plodders
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2022:
@Chris-B you may have missed the memo, unless I misunderstood the posts from a couple of days ago, I think Fakatava has been
cleared for the ABs this yearsuccessfully poachedFTFY
What's your definition of poaching?
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2022:
@Chris-B you may have missed the memo, unless I misunderstood the posts from a couple of days ago, I think Fakatava has been
cleared for the ABs this yearsuccessfully poachedFTFY
What's your definition of poaching?
Depends how outraged Stephen Jones is and whether he writes an article about it.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2022:
@Chris-B you may have missed the memo, unless I misunderstood the posts from a couple of days ago, I think Fakatava has been
cleared for the ABs this yearsuccessfully poachedFTFY
What's your definition of poaching?
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2022:
@Chris-B you may have missed the memo, unless I misunderstood the posts from a couple of days ago, I think Fakatava has been
cleared for the ABs this yearsuccessfully poachedFTFY
What's your definition of poaching?
Tokoroa's lost rugby stars
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@Crazy-Horse I have missed that memo!!! I googled him a few days ago and only found the "discussions with world rugby".
Good news - though I hope the ABs legal team read the communique carefully, because we don't want to be another Spain!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crazy-Horse I have missed that memo!!! I googled him a few days ago and only found the "discussions with world rugby".
Good news - though I hope the ABs legal team read the communique carefully, because we don't want to be another Spain!
I don't share your pessimism about 9s
Azza still has life in him yet but, most valuable is that he has experience (and still has a fast pass)
With Fakatava and possibly Ratima down the track we have contrast to shake things up off the bench post TJP.
With the Ginga and Weber we have the quick to the ruck distributors that cover injury to Smith.I would like it if by the end of the year we have a one-two punch going with Smith (or Ginga/Weber) and Fakatava
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crazy-Horse I have missed that memo!!! I googled him a few days ago and only found the "discussions with world rugby".
Good news - though I hope the ABs legal team read the communique carefully, because we don't want to be another Spain!
I don't share your pessimism about 9s
Azza still has life in him yet but, most valuable is that he has experience (and still has a fast pass)
With Fakatava and possibly Ratima down the track we have contrast to shake things up off the bench post TJP.
With the Ginga and Weber we have the quick to the ruck distributors that cover injury to Smith.I would like it if by the end of the year we have a one-two punch going with Smith (or Ginga/Weber) and Fakatava
@Crucial I think Christie has to have the inside running.
Sure he makes some mistakes still, but his workrate is huge, he makes alot of cover tackles...for me his improvement on last year is huge (I expect regular starts helping massively, coupled with his time in black)
I think it was one of the tries vs the Reds following a big upfield surge, where he had several options of people to hit and the vision he showed to hit the right man which opened more space up for a try in the corner was exactly what you want from your 9, think he had a similar hand in the superb try Telea got vs the Rebels.
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@Crucial I think Christie has to have the inside running.
Sure he makes some mistakes still, but his workrate is huge, he makes alot of cover tackles...for me his improvement on last year is huge (I expect regular starts helping massively, coupled with his time in black)
I think it was one of the tries vs the Reds following a big upfield surge, where he had several options of people to hit and the vision he showed to hit the right man which opened more space up for a try in the corner was exactly what you want from your 9, think he had a similar hand in the superb try Telea got vs the Rebels.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial I think Christie has to have the inside running.
Sure he makes some mistakes still, but his workrate is huge, he makes alot of cover tackles...for me his improvement on last year is off the charts (I expect regular starts helping massively, coupled with his time in black)
I think it was one of the tries vs the Reds following a big upfield surge, where he had several options of people to hit and the vision he showed to hit the right man which opened more space up for a try in the corner was exactly what you want from your 9, think he had a similar hand in the superb try Telea got vs the Rebels.
I dont disagree that he has really shown out but the same can be said of Fakatava. Both are very good options as reserve IMO but if Smith was unavailable I would be starting Christie with Fakatava as impact. He just brings a new level of energy to a side when he comes on.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crazy-Horse I have missed that memo!!! I googled him a few days ago and only found the "discussions with world rugby".
Good news - though I hope the ABs legal team read the communique carefully, because we don't want to be another Spain!
I don't share your pessimism about 9s
Azza still has life in him yet but, most valuable is that he has experience (and still has a fast pass)
With Fakatava and possibly Ratima down the track we have contrast to shake things up off the bench post TJP.
With the Ginga and Weber we have the quick to the ruck distributors that cover injury to Smith.I would like it if by the end of the year we have a one-two punch going with Smith (or Ginga/Weber) and Fakatava
@Crucial Yeah - I'm a bit pessimistic, because there's a yawning experience gap behind Smith to Christie, whose biggest test was off the bench vs Argentina.
Azza is the only guy who's guaranteed to be picked vs Ireland - with TJ and Weber both still in the mix along with Christie and Fakatava. Fozzie seems likely to me to hedge his bets with at least one more experienced guy alongside one newbie.
