Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz

Donsteppa

Have been on the Stats site for a bit today, and decided to have a look at the crime stats:
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://nzdotstat.stats.govt.nz/wbos/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TABLECODE7411'>http://nzdotstat.stats.govt.nz/wbos/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TABLECODE7411</a>
 
There were 4,137 recorded victims of sexual assault in the year to March 2016 by NZ Police (those 4,137 people may have been victims more than once, but are recorded once for the particular 12 month period). Then there's the estimate (?) of one in five women on campus being victims of sexual assault, which I hear Joe Biden has also quoted in an open letter today. Those two numbers probably set a low and a high point for stats.
 
Whatever the actual figure is, sexual assault is an under reported crime. One of the (various) disturbing aspects of that sentencing decision that was in an article today: when a victim goes through all that and the end result is the perpetrator in prison for six months of less - future victims will be less likely to come forward.Going to the police and through the court system is a heck of an ordeal, and if the end of it is a wet bus ticket... 
 
So however widespread the problem is, dodgy decisions like this Judge has may take us even further away from knowing...
 
Do stats actually matter? Probably not, given one is too many. But the better measured (and prosecuted) something is, the more likely it is that society will move for the better.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="586080" data-time="1465524884">
<div>
Have been on the Stats site for a bit today, and decided to have a look at the crime stats:
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://nzdotstat.stats.govt.nz/wbos/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TABLECODE7411'>http://nzdotstat.stats.govt.nz/wbos/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TABLECODE7411</a>
 
There were 4,137 recorded victims of sexual assault in the year to March 2016 by NZ Police (those 4,137 people may have been victims more than once, but are recorded once for the particular 12 month period). Then there's the estimate (?) of one in five women on campus being victims of sexual assault, which I hear Joe Biden has also quoted in an open letter today. Those two numbers probably set a low and a high point for stats.
 
Whatever the actual figure is, sexual assault is an under reported crime. One of the (various) disturbing aspects of that sentencing decision that was in an article today: when a victim goes through all that and the end result is the perpetrator in prison for six months of less - future victims will be less likely to come forward.Going to the police and through the court system is a heck of an ordeal, and if the end of it is a wet bus ticket... 
 
So however widespread the problem is, dodgy decisions like this Judge has may take us even further away from knowing...
 
Do stats actually matter? Probably not, given one is too many. But the better measured (and prosecuted) something is, the more likely it is that society will move for the better. 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
I provided a link earlier as to why that 1 in 5 claim is bogus. It just shouldn't be involved in the discussion at all. 
The fact is that reported sexual assaults is a decreasing crime, and any claim that it because it is too hard to prosecute/ report doesnt really stack up, I have yet to see any evidence that rape is taken less seriously now than it was in the past. In fact I would say that rape has never been taken more seriously. Does that make it perfect, or even close to it? No. But it does show that decreasing sexual assault stats (at least in the US) are reflective of change.
 
I have no issue with criticism of the sentences, but the narrative that is starting to gain traction about guilty until proven innocent is a dangerous thing for everyone. 
The fact that one case is being used to criticise the entire system is typical of the politicization of the issue. One judge got it wrong. Where is the stats for the average rape sentences? IS that amount to low? How does it compare to other serious crimes? No analysis of that gets the media spotlight. Mainly as it probably does not fit the narrative that men are evil bastards that are running amok raping women and getting diversion form judges that laugh about it.
 
The fact someone like Biden is using one case to make political mileage should ring alarm bells. Where is his open letter about the Duke Lacrosse team and the false rape accusation that ruined their lives? Nah .. that wouldn't have won votes.

jegga

Now if I wrote the headline it would something along the lines of,
 
Machete weilding feral shot by heroic officers. Equally feral partner tragically survives
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/80923765/shooting-in-paeroa'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/80923765/shooting-in-paeroa</a>

canefan

	Mum shares shocking chickenpox photos of son who was 'too young to vaccinate'
<p  class="">By Vanessa Brown</p>
<div><span>10:05 AM Friday Jun 10, 2016</span></div>

<div>
<div>
<img height="310" src="http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/201624/a3d165a37841dfe390fb0332ac698b15_620x310.jpg" width="620" alt="a3d165a37841dfe390fb0332ac698b15_620x310">Elijah's ordeal with chickenpox has prompted his mum to speak out about vaccination. Photo / Facebook, Kayley Burke</div>
WARNING: Graphic images
They are the horrifying pictures posted by a desperate mother who doesn't want other parents to go through the same trauma she's had to endure.
Queensland woman Kayley Burke shared confronting images of her 11-month-old son Elijah, who is visibly covered in scabs and blisters caused by chickenpox.
Ms Burke revealed in a Facebook post, which has been shared more than 27,000 times, that her son contracted chickenpox because he was "too young to be immunised".
"Vaccinate your kids people," the post started.
"The pictures below show you exactly why.
"Our poor baby boy who is too young to be immunised has caught the chickenpox.
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
"It has almost been a week since they showed up."
After her son was admitted to hospital one-week ago, Ms Burke told theSunshine Coast Daily her son had been crying and trying to itch the sores that now cover his entire head.
"It's horrible I can't think of anything worse (than watching him go through this)," she said.
"I'm very annoyed that he's sick. I'm a strong believer in vaccinations and I'm sure if he was old enough to have the shot he wouldn't be so sick."
 
Little Elijah was admitted to Ipswich Hospital on Thursday with a secondary infection.
Ms Burke revealed that both she and her other child, three-year-old Kaliah also contracted chickenpox. It is understood her daughter had been recently immunised.
"Kaliah and myself also have the chickenpox," she wrote.
"Fortunately since Kaliah hasn't long been immunised she has a few spots and blisters but is well in herself."
<img src="http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/201624/baby1.jpg" alt="baby1.jpg">Photo / Facebook, Kayley BurkeShe admitted that adult chickenpox was "horrible and painful" and that she would "rather give birth with no pain relief".
Ms Burke said the chickenpox she had contracted had spread inside her mouth and down her throat, causing significant pain. When her son stopped drinking his bottle, she assumed the same had happened to him.
Ms Burke pleaded with other parents to not be "a bloody idiot" and ignore vaccination.
<img src="http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/201624/baby2.jpg" alt="baby2.jpg">Photo / Facebook, Kayley Burke"Think about the risk you are putting on other helpless kids that are too young or who actually can't be vaccinated," she said.
Shocked parents who came across Ms Burke's desperate plea sent their love, and wished the little boy a "speedy recovery".
"Can't stand hearing about stupid selfish people not vaccinating their children," one Facebook user posted.
"Poor little guy. My hearts breaking for you guys. It's just horrible watching their tiny helpless bodies lying there and not been able to do anything about it. Thinking of you guys and hoping you all have a quick and speedy recovery."
According to medical professionals, groups most at risk of chickenpox are infants, pregnant women, people undergoing chemotherapy and those with a low immune system.
<img src="http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/201624/fam.jpg" alt="fam.jpg">Photo / Facebook, Kayley BurkeIpswich Hospital director of pediatrics John Gavranich said the only way to reduce catching the disease was for parents to immunise their children.
"The only way of reducing the risk is ensuring as many people as possible are vaccinated," Dr Gavranich said.
"It is a ... preventable illness and we should have high rates of vaccination."
News.com.au has contacted Kayley Burke for comment.
- <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://news.com.au'>news.com.au</a>
</div>
<div>
By Vanessa Brown
</div>
</blockquote>

jegga

Winger informed us all that chickenpox was a harmless childhood malady and it was over the top to immunise against it . 
That baby's got shifty eyes, probably a shill to big Pharma and scratched himself raw on purpose.

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="586154" data-time="1465551060">
<div>
Winger informed us all that chickenpox was a harmless childhood malady and it was over the top to immunise against it . 
That baby's got shifty eyes, probably a shill to big Pharma and scratched himself raw on purpose.
</div>
</blockquote>
I'm sure there's a homeopathic elixir that can fix that

Donsteppa

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="586116" data-time="1465537351">
<div>
I provided a link earlier as to why that 1 in 5 claim is bogus. It just shouldn't be involved in the discussion at all. 
The fact is that reported sexual assaults is a decreasing crime, and any claim that it because it is too hard to prosecute/ report doesnt really stack up, I have yet to see any evidence that rape is taken less seriously now than it was in the past. In fact I would say that rape has never been taken more seriously. Does that make it perfect, or even close to it? No. But it does show that decreasing sexual assault stats (at least in the US) are reflective of change.
 
I have no issue with criticism of the sentences, but the narrative that is starting to gain traction about guilty until proven innocent is a dangerous thing for everyone. 
The fact that one case is being used to criticise the entire system is typical of the politicization of the issue. One judge got it wrong. Where is the stats for the average rape sentences? IS that amount to low? How does it compare to other serious crimes? No analysis of that gets the media spotlight. Mainly as it probably does not fit the narrative that men are evil bastards that are running amok raping women and getting diversion form judges that laugh about it.
 
The fact someone like Biden is using one case to make political mileage should ring alarm bells. Where is his open letter about the Duke Lacrosse team and the false rape accusation that ruined their lives? Nah .. that wouldn't have won votes. 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Very little of any substance gets any useful analysis in the media these days (the initial premise for this thread..). If you'll filter them for being in a paper that Jegga would scream leftard at (and that they are UK specific stat), there are some interesting pieces of analysis out there that I've found in about 15 seconds in the Guardian. (I imagine I could have done the same in the Telegraph or other proper paper too) They just won't beat out "lady amazed to find that a pie is hot" stories on Stuff or the Herald though...
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/12/rape-cps-police-prosecutors'>https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/12/rape-cps-police-prosecutors</a>
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
 
Nearly three-quarters of recorded rapes of adults and children in England and Wales are not referred to the <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theguardian.com/law/crown-prosecution-service'>Crown Prosecution Service</a> for a decision on whether to charge a suspect, a report by the inspectorate of constabulary revealed on Thursday.
</blockquote>
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/25/rape-myths-low-conviction-rate'>http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/25/rape-myths-low-conviction-rate</a> (full article is quite an interesting read, including also the featured comment)
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
 
The low conviction rate â€“ around 7% of reported rapes resulted in convictions during 2011/12 â€“ is not significantly out of line with other common crimes such as burglary, she maintains.
Writing in the Oxford Journal of Legal Studies, Reece confronts the supposedly widely held belief that "victim blaming" makes it difficult to convict those who carry out attacks.
<div>
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
The truth, she suggests, is far simpler. Unlike assault, which often takes place in public and sometimes within sight of CCTV cameras, rape is an offence for which there are usually no independent witnesses.Reece told the Guardian: "I don't think most people are subject to rape myths. I'm not saying that no one [is influenced by] them but the vast majority of jurors, police, prosecutors and judges have decent attitudes.
</blockquote>
 
Regarding:
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
 
One judge got it wrong. Where is the stats for the average rape sentences? IS that amount to low? How does it compare to other serious crimes? No analysis of that gets the media spotlight. Mainly as it probably does not fit the narrative that men are evil bastards that are running amok raping women and getting diversion form judges that laugh about it.
</blockquote>
 
The sentencing decision undoubtedly is an outlier, but then given the coverage that it has got, someone who has been the position of:
 
"the victim, frightened and diminished by the experience, has to have the confidence to come forward. Then the police have to believe the victim, and there has to be enough evidence for the Crown Prosecution Service to judge there's a good chance of conviction. And then, when the case finally comes to trial, the jury must be convinced by the prosecution in a case that often comes down to one person's word against another." (<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/13/prosecuting-rape-police-cps'>http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/13/prosecuting-rape-police-cps</a>)
 
... is unlikely to objectively check out conviction rates, average sentencing, or consider outliers in the sentencing stats. But for the next month or two at least, they may just remember that saga they saw on Facebook about some kid on the swimming team only being convicted for six months - and his affluenza father being a pig - and it may all become too difficult. So that's why I think it does matter, even though this case is probably an outlier in terms of sentencing, and even though attitudes on the whole seem to be improving (assuming the Guardian story above about decent attitudes is correct).
 
Regarding the coverage and an alleged wider anti-men narrative - I'm not convinced. Also in the media this week... vehicle fatalities have halved in NZ while the population has doubled over the last 30 - 40 years (and violent crime stats are also on the decline, amongst other crimes in decline). Yet an outlier Queens Birthday road toll that's the highest since 1989 has also seen all sorts of lengthy knee jerk commentary this week, and an inordinate amount of time debating Judith Collins comments in a way that nearly made me put my foot through the car radio on two occasions driving to Taupo. (I think she's right to the extent that speed is one of multiple factors). SunLive commenter also lose their mind most times that there's a car crash reported - despite the long term trend and QBW fatalities being an outlier (and again, hideous for the families involved).
 
My point being... something... that the media runs with whatever they think will fire people up, I don't there's any massively bigger an anti-men agenda in the media than there is an agenda for shouting "criminal" at someone doing 101kmph, there are small sets of people on their hobby horses doing both this week (amongst the wider 'hands thrown in the air in horror' reactions from the general population), it's just which gets the attention at any given time.
 
As for Biden, politicians will be politicians. But I'm far more interested in whether he's right or wrong in this instance than in what other topics he should written a letter on. Obama has been big on gun control, should he also be all over this issue to the same degree? Etc, etc. Plenty of people say that Key spent too much time and money on the flag debate over other issues, and I've got no time for that argument either. I've witnessed recently a close friend going through hell on a series of false accusations from his ex/the mother of his two children (that could have been even hairier if the burden of proof was reversed). That I haven't written a lengthy post on that topic doesn't mean I'm not equally alarmed about it. (In that case, thankfully, he had two female witnesses who she had told that she was doing it just to scare him...) 
 
And on that burden of proof thing... I agree that is a chilling proposition, and that there have been some poorly thought out solutions discussed in the media coverage this week. But, I'm wary of that being used to potentially downplay some of the wider issues around sexual assault.
 
I don't have too many solutions myself, other than parents doing their best and and walking the talk. "Tell me and I will forget, show me and I will remember, involve me and I will understand" was a training philosophy that I was given once, and probably does as well for raising kids on most issues. If my workplace observations are any guide, I think there's also some attitudes/behaviours to women from a very small number of older men that are literally dying out too...

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="586124" data-time="1465541044">
<div>
Now if I wrote the headline it would something along the lines of,
 
Machete weilding feral shot by heroic officers. Equally feral partner tragically survives
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/80923765/shooting-in-paeroa'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/80923765/shooting-in-paeroa</a>
</div>
</blockquote>
 
That headline is "beer over the laptop" funny jegga........
 
So according to the feral's surviving partner the cops shot the feral in the back.
 
I find this impossible to believe unless he had his back to them and was threatening others in front of him.
 
......and according to the Stuff Morons it was "only" a machete, not like it was something apparently deadlier, like, you know, a gun or something. Just a machete. Not a deadly weapon. Total overreaction, they should have got in there and disarmed him, not shot him.
 
Fucken arsehole cops.

taniwharugby

yep, cops are the bad guys here!

jegga

Donsteppa , I wouldn't scream leftard quoting the Guardian about this . It's long been a huge issue that like domestic abuse and elder abuse sexual violence very often is unreported . I've mentioned before on other threads about growing up Catholic and every now and then some creep that my family knew who had s "reputation" shows up in the paper for historical sexual offences. 
If I was going to mention the guardian it'd be about the incredible hypocrisy displayed by them and other leftards over Asssnge. He had a long history of being acreep towards woman and even his son had said as much but for some reason they seem capable of downplaying that because he's done sort of hero to them . The reason he springs to mind is I just picked up a copy of Mad Men by Stephen Braunius, he goes to an address by Nicky Hagar to a journalism school and Hagar faps all over Assange and says when questioned about his sexual offences something along the lines of " I'm not going to say he didn't do it, but he totally didn't do it". 
I shake my head in disbelief when j see the same people who deify him in the next breath ranting about rape culture etc.

Donsteppa

Yep, I have a love/hate relationship with the Guardian. It's one of the few papers left with (generally) high quality writing, but every now and then they really jump the shark on a topic.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="586246" data-time="1465615925">
<div>
Yep, I have a love/hate relationship with the Guardian. It's one of the few papers left with (generally) high quality writing, but every now and then they really jump the shark on a topic.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
Ok... no... just absolutely categorically NO.
 
The Guardian is of similar ilk to the Daily Mail. Both love just making stuff up. The Guardian just do it in a more convincing fashion and with bigger words.
 
Will hopefully address your other post when I get a chance.

Baron Silas Greenback

How can something be recorded as a rape when it has not even been proven sufficiently to be further investigated? Isn't the stat that only 28% get put forward kinda meaningless without context?
 
Do we want alleged rapists put through the stress of a trial when the evidence against them is patently dishonest or non existent?
 
Has anyone actually shown that the process for those decisions is wrong on a consistent basis? Or have they picked a random stat and made it fit the narrative?

Donsteppa

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="586251" data-time="1465617324">Ok... no... just absolutely categorically NO. 
 
The Guardian is of similar ilk to the Daily Mail. Both love just making stuff up. The Guardian just do it in a more convincing fashion and with bigger words. 
 
Will hopefully address your other post when I get a chance.</blockquote>
 
I've been swearing at Windows Update for most of the day, so had too much time on my hands. 
As for the Guardian, there's a reason I said love/hate. But for the most part I enjoy it once I get past the click bait/stirring columnists

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="586232" data-time="1465612207"> <div>
As for Biden, politicians will be politicians. But I'm far more interested in whether he's right or wrong in this instance than in what other topics he should written a letter on. 
 
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
Well he is wrong if he mentioned 1-5 women being sexual assault victims, His letter just helps a dishonest narrative, and as shown on this thread, if it gets repeated enough it grows a life of its own and becomes the truth,

Baron Silas Greenback

And whilst we are talking about the Crown Prosecution Service.
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/alison-saunders-should-be-sacked-for-the-janner-case-and-for-her-absurd-views-on-rape-10353802.html'>http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/alison-saunders-should-be-sacked-for-the-janner-case-and-for-her-absurd-views-on-rape-10353802.html</a>
 
Makes it very clear there is an anti male agenda (unless you are a senile kiddy fiddler). All males and people with sons should be concerned with how this id going.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="586246" data-time="1465615925">
Yep, I have a love/hate relationship with the Guardian. It's one of the few papers left with (generally) high quality writing, but every now and then they really jump the shark on a topic.</blockquote>
 
Some of their sports writing is pretty good , I was reading an article about the abs of their website I was going to post the link to in the good rugby reads . 
When you lambast people about rape culture etc while excusing or downplaying Assange it looks like you don't actually give a fuck about the issue at all it's just another trope the left use to beat us up over .

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="586262" data-time="1465620466">
<div>
Some of their sports writing is pretty good , I was reading an article about the abs of their website I was going to post the link to in the good rugby reads . 
When you lambast people about rape culture etc while excusing or downplaying Assange it looks like you don't actually give a fuck about the issue at all it's just another trope the left use to beat us up over .
</div>
</blockquote>
 
And you didn't even get a chance to mention their stance on Islam.. and their stance on womens/homosexual rights.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="586235" data-time="1465612786">
<div>
That headline is "beer over the laptop" funny jegga........
 
So according to the feral's surviving partner the cops shot the feral in the back.
 
I find this impossible to believe unless he had his back to them and was threatening others in front of him.
 
......and according to the Stuff Morons it was "only" a machete, not like it was something apparently deadlier, like, you know, a gun or something. Just a machete. Not a deadly weapon. Total overreaction, they should have got in there and disarmed him, not shot him.
 
Fucken arsehole cops.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
He threw a slasher head at the cop car and smashed the window with a machete, but according to the feral he didn't deserve it <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/80967801/police-said-man-was-shot-in-torso-after-threatening-officers'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/80967801/police-said-man-was-shot-in-torso-after-threatening-officers</a>
 
Look at this non threatening thing he threw at the arsehole cops.
 
<img src="http://www.bulldogtools.co.uk/gen/thumbs/o7gf2pnxdbccvfznutz6eadrvu-ipekxl5m4giktaykdwbsm5g2ja3t4qwo-medium.jpg" alt="o7gf2pnxdbccvfznutz6eadrvu-ipekxl5m4gikt">

Mokey

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="586232" data-time="1465612207">
<div> 
 Also in the media this week... vehicle fatalities have halved in NZ while the population has doubled over the last 30 - 40 years (and violent crime stats are also on the decline, amongst other crimes in decline). Yet an outlier Queens Birthday road toll that's the highest since 1989 has also seen all sorts of lengthy knee jerk commentary this week, and an inordinate amount of time debating Judith Collins comments in a way that nearly made me put my foot through the car radio on two occasions driving to Taupo. (I think she's right to the extent that speed is one of multiple factors). SunLive commenter also lose their mind most times that there's a car crash reported - despite the long term trend and QBW fatalities being an outlier (and again, hideous for the families involved).
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Um, no. Vehicle fatalities are on the rise again in NZ - 2013 (253), 2014 (293) 2015 (319) and we are tracking worse this year again, with 154 people already having lost their lives on the road, and that number doesn't take into account all the hundreds of people hospitalised with serious, long term injuries. It's not just the fact that Queen's Birthday weekend was very bad.
 
The government Safe Systems strategy has four parts - safe roads and roadsides, safe speeds, safe vehicles and safe road use, and for the roads and roadsides part is pouring a great deal of money in the next 6 years into preventative measures such as wire rope barriers, rumble strips and widening of roads. The thinking is people make mistakes on the road, but they and others don't deserve to die for them, so if more forgiving measures are in place, the numbers will drop.

The Silver Fern

Alternative needed from the absolute crap of stuff.co.nz