Foster, Robertson etc
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I saw a brief interview with RTS pre game and when asked how he found things he talked about having huge amounts of study to do with systems etc but then added that Fozzie said 'we don't want robots out there, the systems are just a framework'.
It's a simplification off one newcomers comment but I have to wonder if that is part of the issue here. Either give clear direction and plans whereby players get to express themselves only at 'pull the trigger' moments or don't bother. They seem not to understand when to stick to the plan at the moment.
A good case was on the weekend, we got a small roll on making Ireland defend, got down in their 22 and to me it was time to keep heaping on pressure until a crack appeared but instead we went for what was presumably a phase one glory move off the lineout,. Execution was out and we let the foot off the gas.
Were was the ruthlessness? Players don't seem to understand the need to keep applying pressure in an organised way. Even a very good defence will show cracks after 10 plus phases as long as those phases draw them out of structure. Then you can show off your instinctive brilliance.@Crucial I think examples like that and last week not taking points on offer while we were still in the game is showing Cane is struggling with things too, whether he isn't buying the game plan or is totally misreading the game situation and this teams limitations...?
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Tbh I don't think a massive amount is required to get them back on track. The players are there and when they have nothing to lose, start playing direct and let rip you can see the other teams start getting sqeaky bum time. But that's usually after an inept, bumbling and headless first 40 that's already put them 20 odd points behind. Tactically the ABs have been a mess since even 2016. It's simply arrogance and hubris that can't be papered over by individual brilliance anymore. Same thing with teams tiring. They simply don't hit wall like they used to. If anything we hit the wall after the necessary early 2nd half fightback required to arrest a 20 point deficit. I see all the major teams at least looking like they have a plan and at least playing with some kind of depth and enterprise. I don't know wtf the ABs are doing and I'm not sure the players do either. Just get in someone, anyone who is prepared to fůcking evolve and acknowledge it isn't farking 2015 anymore.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster must go:
Tbh I don't think a massive amount is required to get them back on track. The players are there and when they have nothing to lose, start playing direct and let rip you can see the other teams start getting sqeaky bum time. But that's usually after an inept, bumbling and headless first 40 that's already put them 20 odd points behind. Tactically the ABs have been a mess since even 2016. It's simply arrogance and hubris that can't be papered over by individual brilliance anymore. Same thing with teams tiring. They simply don't hit wall like they used to. If anything we hit the wall after the necessary early 2nd half fightback required to arrest a 20 point deficit. I see all the major teams at least looking like they have a plan and at least playing with some kind of depth and enterprise. I don't know wtf the ABs are doing and I'm not sure the players do either. Just get in someone, anyone who is prepared to fůcking evolve and acknowledge it isn't farking 2015 anymore.
100%, while I think those that appointed Foster should be held accountable, I don't think NZR is this completely rotten institution all of a sudden. Yeah they're not perfect, which is what led to Foster's appointment, but a good coach for the ABs will go a very long way to solving our problems here.
Foster's teams all play the same way - no real structure, just helter skelter bullshit that relies more on individual brilliance than a gameplan that breaks the opposition down. This was exactly how his Chiefs played, and is exactly how the ABs are playing now.
If we can install a coach that can work with his assistants implement a coherent gameplan our players performances will improve 10 fold.
Head coach is not an easy job, which is why so many crash and burn in the role, and that's why it's so important that we only ever appointment people that have a strong record of success in the position beforehand. Foster had none of that.
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@Crucial I think examples like that and last week not taking points on offer while we were still in the game is showing Cane is struggling with things too, whether he isn't buying the game plan or is totally misreading the game situation and this teams limitations...?
@taniwharugby In Cane's defence he did opt for an early shot at goal to get some points on the board, which JB missed. And then there was the poor throw from Taylor from the attacking lineout.
I tend to think that the players fall back on what they know best when in trouble, so the aimless kicking etc is on them.
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Are we (under Foster) still doing the passive defence and trying to score off turnover transitions strategy from the Hansen era? Sounds like it from the Scott McLeod complaints? I've not really been watching.
How we ever got coaching transition at end of 2019 with that proven failed strategy is beyond my comprehension.
The way the team journeyed from 2017 Lions 1st Test to RWC 2019 just absolutely blows my mind. What a waste of what was still the end of a good generation with an absolute wealth of experience. Lost all belief that Hansen was maybe ever a good coach after that failure of vision and implementation. How could they possibly want transition from that steaming pile of outdated crap?
But, this takes me to a general point that would also answer this question by VM (below). I'd want a coach that has a strategy that puts the chance of the result in our own hands, rather than the outcome being dictated by whether the opponents are liable to be keystone-cops somewhere in midfield.
A coach that has a proactive, rather than reactive, vision of how the game should be played. Will put the team in a way better position than a disguisedly failing Hansen team and 100% better position than a Foster team with a similar ethos but zero buy in by the players, fans, journos etc.
For the all consuming RWC cycle focus. Scraping to tight wins, losing some, is actually better prep than thrashing everyone for 4 years with a 90% win record. Occasionally losing, but then comforting ourselves with the fetish of THE BACKLASH. That sort of fetishising gets us a fantastic record in 3rd/4th playoffs.
Need a team and coaching strategy that can attempt to control our own destiny over 3 consecutive matches against near-peer opposition. Get that, and that would be something I would buy into.
The top 8 of world rugby is quite strong these days, and this looks to be a near permanent thing. Gone are the days of hoping our 'bad day' in the RWC playoff run happens to be against a team like a 199/2003 level Scotland or Wales etc.
Need a coaching team that understand consistency of performance. Not excitement on-a-good-day and even more exciting backlashes after it has gone wrong.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
Genuine question. If Foster is replaced - and I think he should be - and the new coach drops more than one game in the TRC and/or loses a game on the EOYT (more than possible the way England, Wales & Scotland are playing at the moment), he will have done no better, or possibly worse, than Foster in 2021.
What do we do then? Do we sack the new coach and look for another to turn things around in time for Sept 2023?
@Rapido said in Foster must go:
Are we (under Foster) still doing the passive defence and trying to score off turnover transitions strategy from the Hansen era? Sounds like it from the Scott McLeod complaints? I've not really been watching.
How we ever got coaching transition at end of 2019 with that proven failed strategy is beyond my comprehension.
The way the team journeyed from 2017 Lions 1st Test to RWC 2019 just absolutely blows my mind. What a waste of what was still the end of a good generation with an absolute wealth of experience. Lost all belief that Hansen was maybe ever a good coach after that failure of vision and implementation. How could they possibly want transition from that steaming pile of outdated crap?
But, this takes me to a general point that would also answer this question by VM (below). I'd want a coach that has a strategy that puts the chance of the result in our own hands, rather than the outcome being dictated by whether the opponents are liable to be keystone-cops somewhere in midfield.
As well as other teams adjusting to the 'no mistakes/direct play' systems we have seen the SA 'kick,kick,kick' which, while effective for a game or two is more easily adjusted to.
There is also the factor of law interpretations. Turnovers like we used to get don't exist much anymore. Teams dont allow them and if you get isolated you hang on and give away a penalty rather than try and avoid the whistle and instead have to deal with a counter. If you don't play too much in your own half a penalty from a turnover isn't too much of a problem and you can at least reset the defence.
The NH refs are also much more lenient on not supporting bodyweight at a ruck (which will be a real problem once we have a generation come through on the new under age rules that say hands must be under a stable body) and interpretations of players standing in rucks being allowed to play the halfback.
Basically, not only have we not adjusted to the adjustments other teams have made we have failed to keep in touch with how the NH want the game. They were on the back foot for years as WR brought into the game being 'more attractive' and now we are getting backlash from that. -
@taniwharugby In Cane's defence he did opt for an early shot at goal to get some points on the board, which JB missed. And then there was the poor throw from Taylor from the attacking lineout.
I tend to think that the players fall back on what they know best when in trouble, so the aimless kicking etc is on them.
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@Bovidae he's struggling with his own game too, including defence which points to something not being right, either with him or other aspects too.
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go:
@Bovidae he's struggling with his own game too, including defence which points to something not being right, either with him or other aspects too.
We all know that rugby works best played as an ultimate 'team game'. A group of different skills and sizes with clear roles to play and tasks to complete. If those roles and tasks aren't clear or someone isn't doing there's well, it impacts everyone.
This is why rugby union has for a long time been the sport of choice for armed forces in many parts of the world. The lessons of teamwork and roles, and following instructions are showcased and explored. -
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@Chester-Draws said in Foster must go:
It turns out that that pretty much everything hung on the coaching. Everything else was fine when he was good.
Sorry, but I think that's way too simplistic and assumes quality of cattle, player development, quality of opposition, the quality of the people choosing and supporting the coach and the processes around managing the game have no impact on the results.
Sure, a good coach is essential and can get the best out of what he's been given, but he can't fix the structural issues in his union.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Chester-Draws said in Foster must go:
It turns out that that pretty much everything hung on the coaching. Everything else was fine when he was good.
Sorry, but I think that's way too simplistic and assumes quality of cattle, player development, quality of opposition, the quality of the people choosing and supporting the coach and the processes around managing the game have no impact on the results.
Sure, a good coach is essential and can get the best out of what he's been given, but he can't fix the structural issues in his union.
At Super level and AB level the quality of players doesn't go up and down so much. (At club and school, of course, it is different). In this particular case, I would argue that our recent extremely poor form is not a lack of players.
Of course the decision to choose the right coach requires good choices. But does that really rely on good structure? I've seen good structures ruined by bad people, and good people work well enough in bad structures (which they then fix, often as not). Generally the people are overwhelmingly important, not how the the chairs are arranged.
And a good coach can sort out structure, if sufficiently powerful. Rennie definitely did it. I believe Henry did it.
Again and again we see average teams transformed by a change of coach. I am I really expected to believe that a backroom change happened in Queensland just as Ewen McKenzie came in? The Blues and Warriors made all sorts of background changes, yet it was the one when MacDonald was selected that was the magic one? Or maybe the changes made no difference, and the coach did.
Edit: Waikato placed higher than Canterbury in last year's NPC. Are you willing to argue that Canterbury must therefore have a structure as bad as one of the most inept organisations on the planet, the WRU?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Chester-Draws said in Foster must go:
It turns out that that pretty much everything hung on the coaching. Everything else was fine when he was good.
Sorry, but I think that's way too simplistic and assumes quality of cattle, player development, quality of opposition, the quality of the people choosing and supporting the coach and the processes around managing the game have no impact on the results.
Sure, a good coach is essential and can get the best out of what he's been given, but he can't fix the structural issues in his union.
At Super level and AB level the quality of players doesn't go up and down so much. (At club and school, of course, it is different). In this particular case, I would argue that our recent extremely poor form is not a lack of players.
Of course the decision to choose the right coach requires good choices. But does that really rely on good structure? I've seen good structures ruined by bad people, and good people work well enough in bad structures (which they then fix, often as not). Generally the people are overwhelmingly important, not how the the chairs are arranged.
And a good coach can sort out structure, if sufficiently powerful. Rennie definitely did it. I believe Henry did it.
Again and again we see average teams transformed by a change of coach. I am I really expected to believe that a backroom change happened in Queensland just as Ewen McKenzie came in? The Blues and Warriors made all sorts of background changes, yet it was the one when MacDonald was selected that was the magic one? Or maybe the changes made no difference, and the coach did.
Edit: Waikato placed higher than Canterbury in last year's NPC. Are you willing to argue that Canterbury must therefore have a structure as bad as one of the most inept organisations on the planet, the WRU?
@Chester-Draws The Blues changed owners, board members, CEO, coaches, talent scouts, even where they trained. These changes stopped the provinces that make up the team infighting and led to a better selection process for the coaches.
So it's moot whether the coach was the answer, because without the backroom changes we would still have Tana (The Blues version of Foster).
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@nzzp said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew progress for the new coach won't just be winning, but clarity around selections, game plans and direction. There may be short term losses, but there has to be hope for the future.
You raise a really good point though, the issue is deeper than just the coach. But the coach has appeared to be a significant part of the issue.
My point is if/when we dump Foster we have to expect much more than just visibility of new game plan and getting more information at pressers on selection thinking.
Sure, I'll give a loss or two if that means progress, but I'd want some pretty rapid progress after 2-3 games if I were NZR and have some contingency plans on re-appointment in place if it doesn't happen. Hope is all well and good, but let's not have another Foster-like fiasco.
I don’t think that will be an expectation nor should it be.
If (and I still think it is a massive if) a new coach and assistants are installed then NZR will have to say there is a massive problem to justify such a step. Massive problems aren’t turned around in 2-3 games.
From a playing perspective it will take time for philosophy buy in and the changes to manifest. From a PR perspective we will be in that similar position to the post Connolly and MacKenzie Wallabies of managing expectations and sending out messages of what’s working in camp etc.
@ACT-Crusader said in Foster must go:
If (and I still think it is a massive if) a new coach and assistants are installed then NZR will have to say there is a massive problem to justify such a step. Massive problems aren’t turned around in 2-3 games.
Yeah - I reckon it's a massive IF.
Right now, I'll be more surprised than not if Fozzie is NOT our coach at RWC.
However, I don't think a new coach needs a massive amount of time to bed things in pre-RWC. Even if Fozzie got the boot at the end of the year that would probably be enough time. We've probably got half a dozen tests scheduled pre-RWC next year?
Let's face it - a brand new coach would definitely turn up with plenty of dry powder. We just need to make sure he's got time to get his artillery in place!
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It's bad enough that this NZRU PR is passed off as "analysis" in our horrible media environment, but does the Herald really need to promote it too? At the very least it should be marked as "sponsored content".
All Black great Sir John Kirwan says now is not the time to change the All Blacks coach as pressure mounts on Ian Foster following the 2-1 series defeat to Ireland.
In an interview with Newstalk ZB's Tim Dower, Kirwan was asked if now was the time to change the coaching staff.
"Not at all. I think there's going to be some real decisions to make. They've got the Rugby Championship coming up, flying to South Africa next week. It's never been done in the history of the game [firing an All Blacks coach]. I believe Ian Foster can turn this around. Well he has to turn it around - should I say.
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An enterprising journo needs to get the good oil on what the players are thinking. Plainly, they are an unhappy crew. Foster pulling Cane 15 minutes before the final whistle in Wellington suggested he was trying to make his own captain the patsy for the tripe that was served up. Something is rotten in the state of
DenmarkAotearoa.@MrDenmore said in Foster must go:
An enterprising journo needs to get the good oil on what the players are thinking. Plainly, they are an unhappy crew. Foster pulling Cane 15 minutes before the final whistle in Wellington suggested he was trying to make his own captain the patsy for the tripe that was served up. Something is rotten in the state of
DenmarkAotearoa.Are we reading a bit too much into this? IIRC Kolisi gets pulled in matches for the Boks so it could be Foster just thought he'd expended too much energy?
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It's bad enough that this NZRU PR is passed off as "analysis" in our horrible media environment, but does the Herald really need to promote it too? At the very least it should be marked as "sponsored content".
All Black great Sir John Kirwan says now is not the time to change the All Blacks coach as pressure mounts on Ian Foster following the 2-1 series defeat to Ireland.
In an interview with Newstalk ZB's Tim Dower, Kirwan was asked if now was the time to change the coaching staff.
"Not at all. I think there's going to be some real decisions to make. They've got the Rugby Championship coming up, flying to South Africa next week. It's never been done in the history of the game [firing an All Blacks coach]. I believe Ian Foster can turn this around. Well he has to turn it around - should I say.
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@Tim SJK has got so much wrong this year, just keep on keeping on.
@taniwharugby He's basically an employee of the NZRU, so anything he says should be disregarded as PR.
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It's bad enough that this NZRU PR is passed off as "analysis" in our horrible media environment, but does the Herald really need to promote it too? At the very least it should be marked as "sponsored content".
All Black great Sir John Kirwan says now is not the time to change the All Blacks coach as pressure mounts on Ian Foster following the 2-1 series defeat to Ireland.
In an interview with Newstalk ZB's Tim Dower, Kirwan was asked if now was the time to change the coaching staff.
"Not at all. I think there's going to be some real decisions to make. They've got the Rugby Championship coming up, flying to South Africa next week. It's never been done in the history of the game [firing an All Blacks coach]. I believe Ian Foster can turn this around. Well he has to turn it around - should I say.
@Tim well, JK is a fucking expert on substandard coaching. Him thinking Ian needs more time to turn it around sounds like wish fulfillment
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@ACT-Crusader said in Foster must go:
If (and I still think it is a massive if) a new coach and assistants are installed then NZR will have to say there is a massive problem to justify such a step. Massive problems aren’t turned around in 2-3 games.
Yeah - I reckon it's a massive IF.
Right now, I'll be more surprised than not if Fozzie is NOT our coach at RWC.
However, I don't think a new coach needs a massive amount of time to bed things in pre-RWC. Even if Fozzie got the boot at the end of the year that would probably be enough time. We've probably got half a dozen tests scheduled pre-RWC next year?
Let's face it - a brand new coach would definitely turn up with plenty of dry powder. We just need to make sure he's got time to get his artillery in place!
@Chris-B If a coaching change is to be made, it would need to be before the EOYT. That gives the new coach enough time to get their support staff in place, and a tour is the perfect environment for them to implement changes.
As to NZR making a decision now, I'd say that is the reality of professional sport, and demonstrates leadership. We can't just rely on the end of a RWC cycle, or a coach to step away (e.g., Smith), for this to happen.
If Foster is to remain (for now), a win in one of the two tests in SA has to be a non-negotiable KPI.
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If NZR want to be a high performing organisation, it needs to be ruthless in implementing fixes where it's clear something isn't working. That "fix" doesn't have to be complete in its initial phase which goes to clearly rejecting unsatisfactory performance and sending a signal. Coaching positions can become vacant while you look for other candidates.
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I don't care if we lose against SA.
We need serious pruning and we need it now.
The time for risk is now. No more delay.
We need the young ones to start. Bower, ST, Vaai, Paps and QT
Chuck in another young prop. Our props have been dreadful.
Test out JB at 12, Jordan at 15 if thats what they want to try.
Try BB as impact sub.
Cant believe Sotutu and Grace haven't had a decent outing.
Shift Ardie from 8.
Need break dancing 100%, no other option.
About 4 fantastic older ABs need to retire.
Keep Whitelock, has GOAT like qualities. Make him captain, he'll last until 2023
Lets do it
