Foster, Robertson etc
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Catogrande said in Foster must go:
@TheMojoman said in Foster must go:
Foster by the numbers - https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300639756/the-charts-that-put-ian-fosters-all-blacks-coaching-record-in-sharp-perspective
Looking at those stats, you have to feel a bit sorry for the flak that Vodanovich is getting on here. 40% of his tests were against a very good Lions side I think.
He wasn't rated by the players from what I've read. According to them, his idea of coaching was to simply train the team to exhaustion and hope for the best tactics-wise on the day. Zero innovation.
There was a huge exodus of experienced players from the AB's after the 1970 tour and some have given him as the reason. IIRC Chris Laidlaw was particularly scathing.
McLean said something along the lines that he took away a rugby team and came back with a team of cross country runners.
The one that is quite interesting to me is JJ Stewart, who was very highly regarded.
The team he took to SA played some good rugby, but a major stumbling point was not having a decent goalkicker who could make the test side (Lozza was that man). We ended up using Sid Going and Bryan Williams and they were terrible - my memory says way below 50 percent.
It was only at that point in our rugby history that we learned (almost conclusively) that a good goalkicker is a necessity. We've occasionally flirted with substandard ones since.
@Chris-B Still got 150 posts to read to catch up, but can't proceed without commenting on your JJ Stewart points.
After the Vodanovich / Duff eras JJ revolutionised AB rugby. Cleared out the dead wood and changed the culture and attacking ethos of the team. Much like what is needed today.
It is true that we suffered from a lack of a reliable kicker but even more so from dirty fucking cheating Saffa refs. Which is why fans of a certain age will always hate losing to SA more than anyone else.
You are spot on with Vodanovich though. The parallels with Fozzie are quite stark. Only got the job because he served his time and was sort of last man standing. Took over from an iconic coach who had dome it all. Inherited a team with (more that) a few players in decline. Sounds like he was a genuine nice guy, but had no fucking clue.
Then when this was apparent to everyone after the 70 tour the fish heads at NZRFU (as was) reappointed him for the Lions tour.....
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@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
Reason is literally saying everything that’s been said on here for ages. The ‘pasifika’ comment is a bit weird but the rest is pretty spot on.
Yep probably hit it on head, Reason is saying what he has read on internet, it's how people without real skills sell stories, find unhappy posts etc and feed the people more of that. I just saw some of that during covid etc, if a journalist wanted to get read they followed what was on net and followed that, it's how some try to stand out in a competitive market. Generally we as readers will see an ex AB say Foster has to go, and if we agree, we think that the man is a genius, if we don't he's an idiot and what does he know. Same in press , a writer who doesn't agree with us is an idiot or NZR stooge etc, and one we agree with is a great writer. It sems to of become even more prevalant since internet became a thing.
@Dan54 said in Foster must go:
Generally we as readers will see an ex AB say Foster has to go, and if we agree, we think that the man is a genius, if we don't he's an idiot and what does he know. Same in press , a writer who doesn't agree with us is an idiot or NZR stooge etc, and one we agree with is a great writer.
What I find interesting is looking at the reasoning for keeping Foster and the support he's received in the press / rugby community.
As far I can see the support to keep Foster boils down to 3 areas.
- Cost. The financial cost of removing Foster and his assistants
- Timing. That changing the coach right now is not ideal with a squad due to depart for RSA soon
- He's a good man and deserves support and 'will turn it around'. Typically from players that played under him.
Even amongst his supporters there doesn't seem to be a great deal of belief or detail.
It doesn't help him that radio silence from NZR has basically left him out to dry for the past few days.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Foster must go:
@voodoo yep. They are the Storm, Collingwood, Celtics, Liverpool - can’t stand them. My old man taught me from a young age that the Boks were dirty, cheating, gold watch giving, neanderthals
Love Sth Africa and the people are kind and very hospitable, but their rugby team - there is no love, nope, nada, zilch.
Exactly how I was raised. Kiwis are awesome but the ABs are are the Aliens in Space Jam, the Wardens in the Longest Yard, the Ring Wraiths, T2000 and the Golden Horde.
But that’s why I’d rather lose to you than those other pretenders, filler villains the lot of em. They think they’re the Joker but they’re really just the 80s cartoon Riddler. It’s just embarrassing when our inner demons let them get a temporary upper hand.
Sort your shit out. The forces of light, truth and Justice need a worthy nemesis.
@Smuts said in Foster must go:
The forces of light, truth and Justice need a worthy nemesis
we do
It's Hawkes Bay. And they have our Shield the thieving fuckers
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@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
yep, can't see the problem there. I agree with basically everything he says.
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Foster will remain until the end of the domestic season. A few assistants might get the arse now, and new boys bought in on short term contracts until end of rugby championship.
If we keep getting arsed through the rest of season, new coach and his band of merry men will take over on end of year tour.
So Fozzy will be there as we lose the Bled Cup, go 0 for 2 against the Boers, and add another tick to the L column against the Island Stealers.
Unless Fozz falls on his sword through those disasters. 6 tests 5 losses....
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that article about Foster not being saked is fucking awful from a number of levels
First, that sounds like a fucking shambles of a set up. One guy is going to fix everything. Not be y being in charge, but just by being there? Meanwhile everyone stays, but the reporting lines get blurry.
This is not what a high performance orientated organisation should do. Those that follow the Premier League (and AFL and league for that matter) could point to all sorts of high profile clubs that have brought in "Directors of Football". And it has done nothing for the onfield stuff while the coach is still blatantly not up to standard.
This is being seen to do something while doing nothing at all. And i get the feeling that's because being drastic is "not the All Black way" as if we are just better than everyone else. Everyone at NZ Rugby is resting on their fucking laurels.
Also, i take issue with this
"The obvious standout leader is Sam Whitelock, the most experienced All Black. Not only is he calm in a crisis"
Now Sam is experienced, isn't playing terribly (but not exactly setting the house on fire either. But Sam is prone to a pressure-relieving penalty caused by a brain explosion. It's all very well and good to point out every single thing Cane got wrong on Saturday. it's not cool to ignore everyone else because you can then make a case for a guy you like. -
@Dan54 said in Foster must go:
Generally we as readers will see an ex AB say Foster has to go, and if we agree, we think that the man is a genius, if we don't he's an idiot and what does he know. Same in press , a writer who doesn't agree with us is an idiot or NZR stooge etc, and one we agree with is a great writer.
What I find interesting is looking at the reasoning for keeping Foster and the support he's received in the press / rugby community.
As far I can see the support to keep Foster boils down to 3 areas.
- Cost. The financial cost of removing Foster and his assistants
- Timing. That changing the coach right now is not ideal with a squad due to depart for RSA soon
- He's a good man and deserves support and 'will turn it around'. Typically from players that played under him.
Even amongst his supporters there doesn't seem to be a great deal of belief or detail.
It doesn't help him that radio silence from NZR has basically left him out to dry for the past few days.
@KiwiMurph I wonder if the players have been told not to respond to media, cos you know they will have been approached for comment?
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Foster will remain until the end of the domestic season. A few assistants might get the arse now, and new boys bought in on short term contracts until end of rugby championship.
If we keep getting arsed through the rest of season, new coach and his band of merry men will take over on end of year tour.
So Fozzy will be there as we lose the Bled Cup, go 0 for 2 against the Boers, and add another tick to the L column against the Island Stealers.
Unless Fozz falls on his sword through those disasters. 6 tests 5 losses....
@BartMan said in Foster must go:
Foster will remain until the end of the domestic season. A few assistants might get the arse now, and new boys bought in on short term contracts until end of rugby championship.
If we keep getting arsed through the rest of season, new coach and his band of merry men will take over on end of year tour.
So Fozzy will be there as we lose the Bled Cup, go 0 for 2 against the Boers, and add another tick to the L column against the Island Stealers.
Unless Fozz falls on his sword through those disasters. 6 tests 5 losses....
That sounds better than a (fake) dead cat bounce.
Given that the balance of power in world rugby is probably the NH, we could go 50/50 with the Boks, smash the Wobs, and finish the year with the ‘team back on track after a successful mid-year review’.
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If that article @Tim posted is on the money, Foster will continue after 20 years of professional coaching averageness. Arguably, no substantive consequences for him.
As a digression: under that model, Foster will still keep his job and apparently significant salary, propped up by a former Steamers coach and Tauranga Boys College Deputy Principal to save the day. And Sam Cane - a good Bay of Plenty lad, long time All Blacks servant, and Captain - will be the one thrown under the bus instead. So... @mariner4life ... if you don't feel some blue and yellow tinged outrage brewing by now...
@Donsteppa said in Foster must go:
As a digression: under that model, Foster will still keep his job and apparently significant salary, propped up by a former Steamers coach and Tauranga Boys College Deputy Principal to save the day. And Sam Cane - a good Bay of Plenty lad, long time All Blacks servant, and Captain - will be the one thrown under the bus instead. So... @mariner4life ... if you don't feel some blue and yellow tinged outrage brewing by now...
oh i am on board.
The entire panel should have been cut
(sadly i can't keep Sam's job. he needs to do that himself if ever given the chance again) -
that article about Foster not being saked is fucking awful from a number of levels
First, that sounds like a fucking shambles of a set up. One guy is going to fix everything. Not be y being in charge, but just by being there? Meanwhile everyone stays, but the reporting lines get blurry.
This is not what a high performance orientated organisation should do. Those that follow the Premier League (and AFL and league for that matter) could point to all sorts of high profile clubs that have brought in "Directors of Football". And it has done nothing for the onfield stuff while the coach is still blatantly not up to standard.
This is being seen to do something while doing nothing at all. And i get the feeling that's because being drastic is "not the All Black way" as if we are just better than everyone else. Everyone at NZ Rugby is resting on their fucking laurels.
Also, i take issue with this
"The obvious standout leader is Sam Whitelock, the most experienced All Black. Not only is he calm in a crisis"
Now Sam is experienced, isn't playing terribly (but not exactly setting the house on fire either. But Sam is prone to a pressure-relieving penalty caused by a brain explosion. It's all very well and good to point out every single thing Cane got wrong on Saturday. it's not cool to ignore everyone else because you can then make a case for a guy you like.@mariner4life said in Foster must go:
that article about Foster not being saked is fucking awful from a number of levels
First, that sounds like a fucking shambles of a set up. One guy is going to fix everything. Not be y being in charge, but just by being there? Meanwhile everyone stays, but the reporting lines get blurry.
This is not what a high performance orientated organisation should do. Those that follow the Premier League (and AFL and league for that matter) could point to all sorts of high profile clubs that have brought in "Directors of Football". And it has done nothing for the onfield stuff while the coach is still blatantly not up to standard.
This is being seen to do something while doing nothing at all. And i get the feeling that's because being drastic is "not the All Black way" as if we are just better than everyone else. Everyone at NZ Rugby is resting on their fucking laurels.
Also, i take issue with this
"The obvious standout leader is Sam Whitelock, the most experienced All Black. Not only is he calm in a crisis"
Now Sam is experienced, isn't playing terribly (but not exactly setting the house on fire either. But Sam is prone to a pressure-relieving penalty caused by a brain explosion. It's all very well and good to point out every single thing Cane got wrong on Saturday. it's not cool to ignore everyone else because you can then make a case for a guy you like.It would allow us to go the full Wales in black jerseys though. We’d just need to select Ardie, Blackadder, Papalii on the flanks.
Is Reece enough of a midget to be our talismanic ‘game breaker’?
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i want a jurno to have the courage to call fozzie out too his face, he cant keep claiming any kind of loyalty to NZR if hes' going to make them pay him out, negotiate a smaller payout to the end of the year, time to find another job...and go
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@Chris-B Still got 150 posts to read to catch up, but can't proceed without commenting on your JJ Stewart points.
After the Vodanovich / Duff eras JJ revolutionised AB rugby. Cleared out the dead wood and changed the culture and attacking ethos of the team. Much like what is needed today.
It is true that we suffered from a lack of a reliable kicker but even more so from dirty fucking cheating Saffa refs. Which is why fans of a certain age will always hate losing to SA more than anyone else.
You are spot on with Vodanovich though. The parallels with Fozzie are quite stark. Only got the job because he served his time and was sort of last man standing. Took over from an iconic coach who had dome it all. Inherited a team with (more that) a few players in decline. Sounds like he was a genuine nice guy, but had no fucking clue.
Then when this was apparent to everyone after the 70 tour the fish heads at NZRFU (as was) reappointed him for the Lions tour.....
@dogmeat That 1970 tour is the first one I have any memory of. And it's pretty much just Bryan Williams being a star. I can remember a bit more about the 71 Lions, because I was a year older. I've only read about Vodanovich.
By 76 I can recall Referee Gert Bezeudenhuit without needing to refer to any books. The Bruce Robertson penalty try... a pass bouncing over Kit Fawcett's shoulder to a centre who ran like a gazelle!!! Oosthuizen??!!
It's interesting how far coaching and tactics have come though - in 1976, we still didn't fully appreciate how vital a good kicker was (despite years of benefiting from Don Clarke). The story behind Colin Farrell's selection - amateur footy!
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i just finished the book "The 100 Year War" and it's nice to know exactly what you guys are talking about
filthy cheating saffas
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@Frank said in Foster must go:
@Tim said in Foster must go:
Sounds pretty certain. Shit.
What a shit show,Right off 2022 and 2023 hopefully then we get a proper coaching group in.
By 2024 a few players would have taken their overseas pension fund and we can start a fresh,and hopefully some of the Board are gone due to this mess they have created.
We just have to sit through 18 months of bad results,Heaps of BS and some painful frustrating rugby to watch.
And apparently another learning curve when ever we lose.These coaches must have learn't a shit load in the last 2 years due to all these learnings.:confounded_face: -
@Smuts said in Foster must go:
The forces of light, truth and Justice need a worthy nemesis
we do
It's Hawkes Bay. And they have our Shield the thieving fuckers
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@Frank said in Foster must go:
@Tim said in Foster must go:
Sounds pretty certain. Shit.
What a shit show,Right off 2022 and 2023 hopefully then we get a proper coaching group in.
By 2024 a few players would have taken their overseas pension fund and we can start a fresh,and hopefully some of the Board are gone due to this mess they have created.
We just have to sit through 18 months of bad results,Heaps of BS and some painful frustrating rugby to watch.
And apparently another learning curve when ever we lose.These coaches must have learn't a shit load in the last 2 years due to all these learnings.:confounded_face:@Chris said in Foster must go:
@Frank said in Foster must go:
@Tim said in Foster must go:
Sounds pretty certain. Shit.
What a shit show,Right off 2022 and 2023 hopefully then we get a proper coaching group in.
By 2024 a few players would have taken their overseas pension fund and we can start a fresh,and hopefully some of the Board are gone due to this mess they have created.
We just have to sit through 18 months of bad results,Heaps of BS and some painful frustrating rugby to watch.
And apparently another learning curve when ever we lose.These coaches must have learn't a shit load in the last 2 years due to all these learnings.:confounded_face:PhD level mate. They should be geniuses in failure by the end of 2022
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@Chris said in Foster must go:
@Frank said in Foster must go:
@Tim said in Foster must go:
Sounds pretty certain. Shit.
What a shit show,Right off 2022 and 2023 hopefully then we get a proper coaching group in.
By 2024 a few players would have taken their overseas pension fund and we can start a fresh,and hopefully some of the Board are gone due to this mess they have created.
We just have to sit through 18 months of bad results,Heaps of BS and some painful frustrating rugby to watch.
And apparently another learning curve when ever we lose.These coaches must have learn't a shit load in the last 2 years due to all these learnings.:confounded_face:PhD level mate. They should be geniuses in failure by the end of 2022
@canefan said in Foster must go:
@Chris said in Foster must go:
@Frank said in Foster must go:
@Tim said in Foster must go:
Sounds pretty certain. Shit.
What a shit show,Right off 2022 and 2023 hopefully then we get a proper coaching group in.
By 2024 a few players would have taken their overseas pension fund and we can start a fresh,and hopefully some of the Board are gone due to this mess they have created.
We just have to sit through 18 months of bad results,Heaps of BS and some painful frustrating rugby to watch.
And apparently another learning curve when ever we lose.These coaches must have learn't a shit load in the last 2 years due to all these learnings.:confounded_face:PhD level mate. They should be geniuses in failure by the end of 2022
Taking it to a new Level.
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@mariner4life you spelt The Bulls wrong…
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@dogmeat That 1970 tour is the first one I have any memory of. And it's pretty much just Bryan Williams being a star. I can remember a bit more about the 71 Lions, because I was a year older. I've only read about Vodanovich.
By 76 I can recall Referee Gert Bezeudenhuit without needing to refer to any books. The Bruce Robertson penalty try... a pass bouncing over Kit Fawcett's shoulder to a centre who ran like a gazelle!!! Oosthuizen??!!
It's interesting how far coaching and tactics have come though - in 1976, we still didn't fully appreciate how vital a good kicker was (despite years of benefiting from Don Clarke). The story behind Colin Farrell's selection - amateur footy!
@Chris-B Poor Colin Farrell consistently picked as worst AB ever - which I don't think he was.
He was a fan favourite for Akl carving it up from fullback. So he's picked as a running fullback (as a green 21 year old) and gets the ball once in two tests!!!
Ironically IIRC he wasn't a bad kicker for Akl but the AB's decided to use BeeGee (coz that worked well in SA)and Going.
The worse decision was picking Kit - I expect to score more off the field than on it - Fawcett in 76
