Foster, Robertson etc

mariner4life

Hopper and Savea in the same trio is not good. The rest i could make a case for.

mariner4life

i am very interested to watch the SA game. The change in assistants adds a little spice to the mix

I am, however, extremely dubious as to what kind of effect they are going to have. I imagine the roll of the specific assistants is to coach their area to execute the overall plan. They don't get given their areas and told "do as you think best". Unless they are having an input in to the overall plan (which would be doubtful given the timeframes available) then they are effectively being told to get their areas executing the plan better, not change the plan.

There will be a few tweaks as every coach will want to add their little bit, but, if it is as appears, and most of our problems ae structural, then what exactly can they improve in less than 2 weeks?

Crucial

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

i am very interested to watch the SA game. The change in assistants adds a little spice to the mix

I am, however, extremely dubious as to what kind of effect they are going to have. I imagine the roll of the specific assistants is to coach their area to execute the overall plan. They don't get given their areas and told "do as you think best". Unless they are having an input in to the overall plan (which would be doubtful given the timeframes available) then they are effectively being told to get their areas executing the plan better, not change the plan.

There will be a few tweaks as every coach will want to add their little bit, but, if it is as appears, and most of our problems ae structural, then what exactly can they improve in less than 2 weeks?

Pretty sure Ryan will concentrate on maul defence and attack only. The bigger thinking around strategies and roles will come in slowly.
Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh. Apart from what the gameplan dictates he isn't playing badly. A few errors, but that is normal. I really don't think he is anywhere near as bad as some are making out. His game is being affected by the state of the team and the burden he is shouldering for sure. Probably hasn't been playing with a clear head and a trip away with a 'new' start may help massively.

nzzp

@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh.

he's doing exactly what you expect, and what is hard to replace - putting 100% out there, all the time, and being a defensive monster. His problem is that he's not that dynamic a ball carrier, so he's at risk of being Pocock V2.0, but instead of turnovers it's hard tackles. You can paper over those cracks with others, but that's how you wind up in the place we are now with unbalanced loose forward trios

mariner4life

@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh. Apart from what the gameplan dictates he isn't playing badly

i think because "not playing badly" is a pretty average mark

Trademark hits? no
Turnovers? no
Errors and ineffective carries? yes.

Absolutely there are structural issues. He's operating in the middle of the field cleaning up the shit not done by the tight 5. His #8 is attack attack attack. His 6 is stationed out wide.
But that doesn't change the fact that he isn't providing a point of difference, was smashed on points by his opposite number against Ireland, and he's wearing the Black 7 jersey, which comes with a heap of expectation. We're getting owned at the breakdown, and consistently run out of support players.
He's the openside flanker and the captain, he needs to show more.

Tim

@gt12 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

Strawbridge

Wasn't he a back coach? His appointment was pretty weird. Seems like a boondoggle.

antipodean

@stodders said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@antipodean said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@stodders Barnes has a distinguished career in making laughably idiotic pronouncements.

In amongst the dross from Barnes, there are some interesting nuggets:

Would you pick Cane in front of any of the no.7 options NZ's main opponents are capable of fielding? Hooper, Kolisi, Van der Flier, Jelonch, Curry. Would you take any of them over Cane?

Possibly, but it depends on the type of defence and who you have around them.

Is Cane the best no.7 NZ have available right now? Papalii and Savea are arguably better options in the here and now. This isn't a question to denigrate someone who has been a real servant to NZ rugby. McCaw was questioned several times over his career and always found an answer to shut up the naysayers.

It is arguable whether he's in the best form given how well Papali'i played in Super Rugby, but his impact in defence can't be denied.

If the answer to 2 is No, the captain question is a redundant one. It would be a long time ago that NZ played someone at no.7 that was not the best the best in the country and did not measure up against the players available to other nations.

Well we're not fielding our best no.8, so there's that.

I'd say the broader problem is that our loose forwards are situated to be effective when we have the ball, but we don't play to that shape because we don't go forward with the tight five or our backs.

Donsteppa

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh. Apart from what the gameplan dictates he isn't playing badly

i think because "not playing badly" is a pretty average mark

Trademark hits? no
Turnovers? no
Errors and ineffective carries? yes.

Absolutely there are structural issues. He's operating in the middle of the field cleaning up the shit not done by the tight 5. His #8 is attack attack attack. His 6 is stationed out wide.
But that doesn't change the fact that he isn't providing a point of difference, was smashed on points by his opposite number against Ireland, and he's wearing the Black 7 jersey, which comes with a heap of expectation. We're getting owned at the breakdown, and consistently run out of support players.
He's the openside flanker and the captain, he needs to show more.

'He's doing the job of the rest of the forward pack, but it's still not enough'.

Bloody border closures. You still remember where Tauranga even is?

mariner4life

@Donsteppa said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh. Apart from what the gameplan dictates he isn't playing badly

i think because "not playing badly" is a pretty average mark

Trademark hits? no
Turnovers? no
Errors and ineffective carries? yes.

Absolutely there are structural issues. He's operating in the middle of the field cleaning up the shit not done by the tight 5. His #8 is attack attack attack. His 6 is stationed out wide.
But that doesn't change the fact that he isn't providing a point of difference, was smashed on points by his opposite number against Ireland, and he's wearing the Black 7 jersey, which comes with a heap of expectation. We're getting owned at the breakdown, and consistently run out of support players.
He's the openside flanker and the captain, he needs to show more.

'He's doing the job of the rest of the forward pack, but it's still not enough'.

Bloody border closures. You still remember where Tauranga even is?

bro, i am sorry, i really am.
(i've actually lived here as long as i ever lived in Tga)

but Captain Sam is not above reproach. But if you want me to have a go at some others for balance i will (Sam Whitelock is in much the same boat)

Bovidae

@Tim said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@gt12 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

Strawbridge

Wasn't he a back coach? His appointment was pretty weird.

He has been a NZR resource coach for years, helping a number of NZ age-group teams, as well as coaching in the NPC and SR. I see Strawbridge is listed as a skills consultant so I doubt it is a full-time role. Probably responsible for some of the work Mooar should have been doing.

Donsteppa

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@Donsteppa said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh. Apart from what the gameplan dictates he isn't playing badly

i think because "not playing badly" is a pretty average mark

Trademark hits? no
Turnovers? no
Errors and ineffective carries? yes.

Absolutely there are structural issues. He's operating in the middle of the field cleaning up the shit not done by the tight 5. His #8 is attack attack attack. His 6 is stationed out wide.
But that doesn't change the fact that he isn't providing a point of difference, was smashed on points by his opposite number against Ireland, and he's wearing the Black 7 jersey, which comes with a heap of expectation. We're getting owned at the breakdown, and consistently run out of support players.
He's the openside flanker and the captain, he needs to show more.

'He's doing the job of the rest of the forward pack, but it's still not enough'.

Bloody border closures. You still remember where Tauranga even is?

bro, i am sorry, i really am.
(i've actually lived here as long as i ever lived in Tga)

but Captain Sam is not above reproach. But if you want me to have a go at some others for balance i will (Sam Whitelock is in much the same boat)

Quick reeducation camp:

(a) We get 80 Test All Black Captains once in a lifetime
(b) Ferret Foster is in charge of selection and tactics

Though agreed that deflection is a good future strategy too...

mariner4life

@Donsteppa said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@Donsteppa said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh. Apart from what the gameplan dictates he isn't playing badly

i think because "not playing badly" is a pretty average mark

Trademark hits? no
Turnovers? no
Errors and ineffective carries? yes.

Absolutely there are structural issues. He's operating in the middle of the field cleaning up the shit not done by the tight 5. His #8 is attack attack attack. His 6 is stationed out wide.
But that doesn't change the fact that he isn't providing a point of difference, was smashed on points by his opposite number against Ireland, and he's wearing the Black 7 jersey, which comes with a heap of expectation. We're getting owned at the breakdown, and consistently run out of support players.
He's the openside flanker and the captain, he needs to show more.

'He's doing the job of the rest of the forward pack, but it's still not enough'.

Bloody border closures. You still remember where Tauranga even is?

bro, i am sorry, i really am.
(i've actually lived here as long as i ever lived in Tga)

but Captain Sam is not above reproach. But if you want me to have a go at some others for balance i will (Sam Whitelock is in much the same boat)

Quick reeducation camp:

(a) We get 80 Test All Black Captains once in a lifetime
(b) Ferret Foster is in charge of selection and tactics

Though agreed that deflection is a good future strategy too...

fair point.

This is all on that fucker from Waikato. He's deliberately sabotaging BOP's pride and joy. Fuck you Waikato you bastards. You have the worst strip in Professional sports. And you gave us both John Mitchell and Ian Foster as coaches. AND Scott McLeod

In fact,. why haven't we invaded the Waikato and burned their capital to the ground?

Crucial

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh. Apart from what the gameplan dictates he isn't playing badly

i think because "not playing badly" is a pretty average mark

Trademark hits? no
Turnovers? no
Errors and ineffective carries? yes.

Absolutely there are structural issues. He's operating in the middle of the field cleaning up the shit not done by the tight 5. His #8 is attack attack attack. His 6 is stationed out wide.
But that doesn't change the fact that he isn't providing a point of difference, was smashed on points by his opposite number against Ireland, and he's wearing the Black 7 jersey, which comes with a heap of expectation. We're getting owned at the breakdown, and consistently run out of support players.
He's the openside flanker and the captain, he needs to show more.

I get all of that but do you expect him to go outside of the expected pattern to get those opportunities to show more?
He's either unsuited for the role or the role is unsuited to him.
I suspect the same would be the case for Paps. He also showed how average he can look when not playing a role he is suited to.
For some reason we don't have our 7 playing the way they are used to the next level down where they have a roaming licence to hunt.

Crucial

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@Donsteppa said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@Donsteppa said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

Cane is copping all sorts of shit that puzzles me tbh. Apart from what the gameplan dictates he isn't playing badly

i think because "not playing badly" is a pretty average mark

Trademark hits? no
Turnovers? no
Errors and ineffective carries? yes.

Absolutely there are structural issues. He's operating in the middle of the field cleaning up the shit not done by the tight 5. His #8 is attack attack attack. His 6 is stationed out wide.
But that doesn't change the fact that he isn't providing a point of difference, was smashed on points by his opposite number against Ireland, and he's wearing the Black 7 jersey, which comes with a heap of expectation. We're getting owned at the breakdown, and consistently run out of support players.
He's the openside flanker and the captain, he needs to show more.

'He's doing the job of the rest of the forward pack, but it's still not enough'.

Bloody border closures. You still remember where Tauranga even is?

bro, i am sorry, i really am.
(i've actually lived here as long as i ever lived in Tga)

but Captain Sam is not above reproach. But if you want me to have a go at some others for balance i will (Sam Whitelock is in much the same boat)

Quick reeducation camp:

(a) We get 80 Test All Black Captains once in a lifetime
(b) Ferret Foster is in charge of selection and tactics

Though agreed that deflection is a good future strategy too...

fair point.

This is all on that fucker from Waikato. He's deliberately sabotaging BOP's pride and joy. Fuck you Waikato you bastards. You have the worst strip in Professional sports. And you gave us both John Mitchell and Ian Foster as coaches. AND Scott McLeod

In fact,. why haven't we invaded the Waikato and burned their capital to the ground?

Too many fountains.

mariner4life

@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

For some reason we don't have our 7 playing the way they are used to the next level down where they have a roaming licence to hunt

there's a reason for that

Crucial

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

For some reason we don't have our 7 playing the way they are used to the next level down where they have a roaming licence to hunt

there's a reason for that

A theory more like.

Just about every 7 develops their game over years as being a hunter. Running lines, techniques, tackles etc. That's why they are the loosest of loose forwards.
Changing that role seems to be some odd theory to distribute the loosies into zones and they aren't looking anything like at their best.

Kiwiwomble

aren't we on a hiding to nothing trying to get players to play so differently to how they play in the next level down, we're saying the Ryan can only achieve so much with the limited time in camp...why is it different for the players

No Quarter

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

For some reason we don't have our 7 playing the way they are used to the next level down where they have a roaming licence to hunt

there's a reason for that

We'd honestly solve a lot of our loose forward issues if we played Akira at 6 and Sotutu at 8. Put Cane, Ardie or Papalii between those two and we have a really well balanced trio.

(edit - added Ardie who should be starting at 7 or on the bench)

junior

@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

For some reason we don't have our 7 playing the way they are used to the next level down where they have a roaming licence to hunt

there's a reason for that

A theory more like.

Just about every 7 develops their game over years as being a hunter. Running lines, techniques, tackles etc. That's why they are the loosest of loose forwards.
Changing that role seems to be some odd theory to distribute the loosies into zones and they aren't looking anything like at their best.

It also works on the principle that they will get adequate support from the other players stationed in their zones (midfield / outside backs generally in the wider zones and tight forwards generally ip the middle) but that ain’t happening. So what we’re seeing is Cane effectively fighting a one man war in the middle of the park and out 6 and 8 doing nothing as the ball seldom gets out to their channels (and when it does they are the ones receiving it and breathing the breakdown)

None of this is actually conducive to winning good quality ball from which the team can produce anything resembling a decent attack.

nostrildamus

@No-Quarter said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:

For some reason we don't have our 7 playing the way they are used to the next level down where they have a roaming licence to hunt

there's a reason for that

We'd honestly solve a lot of our loose forward issues if we played Akira at 6 and Sotutu at 8. Put Cane, Ardie or Papalii between those two and we have a really well balanced trio.

(edit - added Ardie who should be starting at 7 or on the bench)

If Ardie and Akira they can't be allowed to just ruck watch..

The Silver Fern

Foster, Robertson etc