Foster, Robertson etc
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@Bones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@junior yeah I disagree. We don't see these same issues in high intensity SR games. The players have the skills (look at the difference between Jordan in black vs Jordan in red and black). It's got to come down to AB training, game plan and implementation for mine.
The thing which is really frustrating is that the team can perform. The 3rd quarter against France last year and the 2nd quarter a week or so ago being examples.
@Victor-Meldrew As much as we sucked, we had every opportunity to win those games. Big come backs for 10-20 mins and then it was on pass, one missed tackle, one bad read and the game was over.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew well given the issues showed signs in 2016 and really started bedding in circa 2017/2018, I think the fact none of the coaching team responded to this at the time is a big part of the problem...Maybe Fozzie is a good coach, but the ingrained issues that have been festering for near on 5 years now are now a major issue, but no one did anything about it, until now (Hansen and his team, that included Foster, and then Foster and his team)
It should be on them to identify issues in our game at the top, which will be there at Super and start working with Super coaches to fix these...this isnt on NZR, they are responsible for a completely separate pile of shit!
Tend to agree with much of that but don't think everything to do with solving player issues at the top is down to one bloke and/or his assistants to identify, negotiate with all the coaches in the land and fix. That's a role for NZR overall as they are the ones with the bandwidth, clout and ability to manage player performance and skill levels overall at the top level - obviously after feed-in from the AB coaching team & players.
Would be interesting to know if Hansen, Foster and the senior players have raised issues with NZR and what the response was. Not that we're likely to find out with the current comms strategy.
absolutely disagree that he is not responsible, sure, not with all the players down through to NPC, but if he identifies a weakness with our props (or other aspects) work away from the scrum, he needs to go to the Super guys, who in turn go to the NPC who in turn look at club/1st 15 to start working on the issue....as I said earlier when the Cron way was getting results, they were teaching his ways right down the chain.
So absolutely starts with the guy at the top (right now, Fozzie) especially one that has been a part of the existing structure/systems for 10 years...part of his role is, or damn well should include development of players into the national side (which must include guys he sees at super that are close, but need polishing, so is he giving the direction to that player and those around him, or getting the support he needs to move that player through) therefore recognising issues that prevent guys getting there, or weaknesses in our game at the top is absolutely on him and his team.
NZR are culpable in the fact they appointed him, maybe he has been asking for things and they are not giving him them, but he is the boots on the ground, he shouold have the best knowledge about how to make his team the very best...NZR are there to give hi the tools.
I think for SA we just need to go back to basics, play some simple structured attack, play % rugby.
We also need to stop kicking ball away given how poor our defence is at defending almost anything outside the 22.
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
part of his role is, or damn well should include development of players into the national side (which must include guys he sees at super that are close, but need polishing, so is he giving the direction to that player and those around him, or getting the support he needs to move that player through) therefore recognising issues that prevent guys getting there, or weaknesses in our game at the top is absolutely on him and his team.
Well someone needs to take charge of that and the AB coach seems a logical choice. But has Foster, and Hansen before him, been getting the support he needs from NZR and co-operation from the SR Franchises? Using Akira as an example, you have to question if that was not there pre-McDonald days.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
part of his role is, or damn well should include development of players into the national side (which must include guys he sees at super that are close, but need polishing, so is he giving the direction to that player and those around him, or getting the support he needs to move that player through) therefore recognising issues that prevent guys getting there, or weaknesses in our game at the top is absolutely on him and his team.
Well someone needs to take charge of that and the AB coach seems a logical choice. But has Foster, and Hansen before him, been getting the support he needs from NZR and co-operation from the SR Franchises? Using Akira as an example, you have to question if that was not there pre-McDonald days.
@Victor-Meldrew yep, I did say that too, maybe he, and Hansen before him did ask for help or assistance for something and nzr aren't providing the tools he or nz needs to rectify this.
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@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable". Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable".
That ship has sailed.
Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
We all agree on that. But it's how you best do that which is the issue.
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@Victor-Meldrew yep, I did say that too, maybe he, and Hansen before him did ask for help or assistance for something and nzr aren't providing the tools he or nz needs to rectify this.
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew yep, I did say that too, maybe he, and Hansen before him did ask for help or assistance for something and nzr aren't providing the tools he or nz needs to rectify this.
Amazing, don't you think, that it's unclear to you and me who is actually responsible for player development into the AB's and who's responsible for making sure any barriers to development & co-operation are removed?
Speaks volumes.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew yep, I did say that too, maybe he, and Hansen before him did ask for help or assistance for something and nzr aren't providing the tools he or nz needs to rectify this.
Amazing, don't you think, that it's unclear to you and me who is actually responsible for player development into the AB's and who's responsible for making sure any barriers to development & co-operation are removed?
Speaks volumes.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew yep, I did say that too, maybe he, and Hansen before him did ask for help or assistance for something and nzr aren't providing the tools he or nz needs to rectify this.
Amazing, don't you think, that it's unclear to you and me who is actually responsible for player development into the AB's and who's responsible for making sure any barriers to development & co-operation are removed?
Speaks volumes.
One thing that has been identified and is being worked on by NZR is coach development. One of the root causes to player development waning is that a generation of good coaches have gone overseas for opportunities and money. Partly due to consequence of timing, it must be said. The quality of our Super coaches and assistants is in a development phase at most franchises.
Like player loss the impact of coaches going overseas is huge in its indirect effects as the whole chain on coaching capabilities is dragged up the ranks meaning player development happens further up the chain than it should.
I don’t know the solution to this except the effort already being thrown at the lower levels.. maybe we need to change attitudes to the top jobs and create more performance based churn which would provide more incentive to stick around instead of coaches seeing a multi year blockage ahead of them.
That approach doesn’t seem to work that well for players though so there’s an argument that it may not for coaches. At least coaches can change country and come back though which may be a difference. -
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable".
That ship has sailed.
Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
We all agree on that. But it's how you best do that which is the issue.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable".
That ship has sailed.
Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
We all agree on that. But it's how you best do that which is the issue.
If shouldn't have sailed though. If they draw the series in Africa, Foz over the last 12 tests will still at best hold a 50% record. If they lose 0-2 it will be 42%. That ship should certainly still be in dock and ready take the current coaching group excluding Ryan to the underworld. When is enough, enough?
I still believe we have the best ball players across the park in the world but we can't unify them as one collective force save for 15-20 mins. There's no what ifs. Razor has to come in.
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Ryan seems a smart guy, so he knows that if things keep going down into the chasm he will be dragged, albeit slowly with Fozzie, or at least be tarnished slightly the longer this drags out without improvement.
So you'd have to think he sat down with Fozzie, walked through his goals, what his plans are, how he wants to play and that all these things are compatible with his goals and style, and he decided that he could help, he could see areas he could improve and return some steel into our pack.
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Ryan seems a smart guy, so he knows that if things keep going down into the chasm he will be dragged, albeit slowly with Fozzie, or at least be tarnished slightly the longer this drags out without improvement.
So you'd have to think he sat down with Fozzie, walked through his goals, what his plans are, how he wants to play and that all these things are compatible with his goals and style, and he decided that he could help, he could see areas he could improve and return some steel into our pack.
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Ryan seems a smart guy, so he knows that if things keep going down into the chasm he will be dragged, albeit slowly with Fozzie, or at least be tarnished slightly the longer this drags out without improvement.
So you'd have to think he sat down with Fozzie, walked through his goals, what his plans are, how he wants to play and that all these things are compatible with his goals and style, and he decided that he could help, he could see areas he could improve and return some steel into our pack.
I'd imagine Foz would have said "we're phucked, we need help. Please get us going again." and Ryan said, "no worries, but I have to do it my way because your way since 2016 has gone like this".
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew yep, I did say that too, maybe he, and Hansen before him did ask for help or assistance for something and nzr aren't providing the tools he or nz needs to rectify this.
Amazing, don't you think, that it's unclear to you and me who is actually responsible for player development into the AB's and who's responsible for making sure any barriers to development & co-operation are removed?
Speaks volumes.
One thing that has been identified and is being worked on by NZR is coach development. One of the root causes to player development waning is that a generation of good coaches have gone overseas for opportunities and money. Partly due to consequence of timing, it must be said. The quality of our Super coaches and assistants is in a development phase at most franchises.
Like player loss the impact of coaches going overseas is huge in its indirect effects as the whole chain on coaching capabilities is dragged up the ranks meaning player development happens further up the chain than it should.
I don’t know the solution to this except the effort already being thrown at the lower levels.. maybe we need to change attitudes to the top jobs and create more performance based churn which would provide more incentive to stick around instead of coaches seeing a multi year blockage ahead of them.
That approach doesn’t seem to work that well for players though so there’s an argument that it may not for coaches. At least coaches can change country and come back though which may be a difference.@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew yep, I did say that too, maybe he, and Hansen before him did ask for help or assistance for something and nzr aren't providing the tools he or nz needs to rectify this.
Amazing, don't you think, that it's unclear to you and me who is actually responsible for player development into the AB's and who's responsible for making sure any barriers to development & co-operation are removed?
Speaks volumes.
One thing that has been identified and is being worked on by NZR is coach development. One of the root causes to player development waning is that a generation of good coaches have gone overseas for opportunities and money. Partly due to consequence of timing, it must be said. The quality of our Super coaches and assistants is in a development phase at most franchises.
Like player loss the impact of coaches going overseas is huge in its indirect effects as the whole chain on coaching capabilities is dragged up the ranks meaning player development happens further up the chain than it should.
I don’t know the solution to this except the effort already being thrown at the lower levels.. maybe we need to change attitudes to the top jobs and create more performance based churn which would provide more incentive to stick around instead of coaches seeing a multi year blockage ahead of them.
That approach doesn’t seem to work that well for players though so there’s an argument that it may not for coaches. At least coaches can change country and come back though which may be a difference.Maybe the NZRU has to be open to non-Kiwi coaches in the ABs set up. If not short term to get the team firing again. Or maybe they should have just recognised since the end of 2016 our team has been below ABs standard set by the previous 10 years.
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Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
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Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
What a fucktard. If he doesn't mean what that implies then he's just throwing more fuel on the fire and asking for speculation.
Either have the balls to say things outright or go back into your hole. More evidence that what Shag says is correct. -
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
What a fucktard. If he doesn't mean what that implies then he's just throwing more fuel on the fire and asking for speculation.
Either have the balls to say things outright or go back into your hole. More evidence that what Shag says is correct.@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
What a fucktard. If he doesn't mean what that implies then he's just throwing more fuel on the fire and asking for speculation.
Either have the balls to say things outright or go back into your hole. More evidence that what Shag says is correct.Partially correct, because he is totally wrong about Foster as a head coach, Foster's not good enough by any measure
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@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
What a fucktard. If he doesn't mean what that implies then he's just throwing more fuel on the fire and asking for speculation.
Either have the balls to say things outright or go back into your hole. More evidence that what Shag says is correct.Partially correct, because he is totally wrong about Foster as a head coach, Foster's not good enough by any measure
@Machpants the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team...but, with the changes to add Schmidt and Ryan, if this doesn't workoesnt show any improvement to our structure, holy hecka...
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@Machpants the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team...but, with the changes to add Schmidt and Ryan, if this doesn't workoesnt show any improvement to our structure, holy hecka...
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team..
Wasn't it? And what was his preferred team?
edit Plumtree was I think. And Mooar was expensive to obtain if Foster wasn't that keen on him
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team..
Wasn't it? And what was his preferred team?
edit Plumtree was I think. And Mooar was expensive to obtain if Foster wasn't that keen on him
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team..
Wasn't it? And what was his preferred team?
edit Plumtree was I think. And Mooar was expensive to obtain if Foster wasn't that keen on him
@Winger iirc Brown was one he had asked but he had thrown his lot in with Joseph, unsure about the rest.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable".
That ship has sailed.
Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
We all agree on that. But it's how you best do that which is the issue.
If shouldn't have sailed though. If they draw the series in Africa, Foz over the last 12 tests will still at best hold a 50% record. If they lose 0-2 it will be 42%. That ship should certainly still be in dock and ready take the current coaching group excluding Ryan to the underworld. When is enough, enough?
I still believe we have the best ball players across the park in the world but we can't unify them as one collective force save for 15-20 mins. There's no what ifs. Razor has to come in.
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable".
That ship has sailed.
Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
We all agree on that. But it's how you best do that which is the issue.
If shouldn't have sailed though.
It has though and that's the reality.
If they draw the series in Africa, Foz over the last 12 tests will still at best hold a 50% record. If they lose 0-2 it will be 42%. That ship should certainly still be in dock and ready take the current coaching group excluding Ryan to the underworld. When is enough, enough?
Selective use of statistics there. E.g. Foster's overall win ratio in 2021 from 15 Tests (losses to Ireland and France and a narrow loss to SA) was 80%.
I still believe we have the best ball players across the park in the world but we can't unify them as one collective force save for 15-20 mins.
No we don't and haven't had for some time. Look at the U20 results and the quality of players in France for example. We don't have all these wonder players you think we have. If we did, the Whitelock & Retallick replacements would be oven-ready.
There's no what ifs. Razor has to come in.
Magic solution which won't solve the deeper issues.
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@Machpants the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team...but, with the changes to add Schmidt and Ryan, if this doesn't workoesnt show any improvement to our structure, holy hecka...
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants the only slack I can give Foster is that his coaching team he ended up with, wasn't his preferred team...but, with the changes to add Schmidt and Ryan, if this doesn't workoesnt show any improvement to our structure, holy hecka...
One would hope NZR are working on a plan for that scenario.
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Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
@Machpants said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Damned with faint praise. Hopefully this tosser will be out after the governance review, too.
I might have disagreed with Steve Tew on a few things, but I reckon he was comfortably the best NZR CEO of the past 25 years or whenever the job was created.
Where's Hamish Riach when we need him? (Ashburton I think?).
This sounds like chchfanatics scenario might be on the money.
