Foster, Robertson etc
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@MajorRage said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Hated their rugby team ever since. Somewhat more difficult now.
There's always Sexton...
@Victor-Meldrew Peter Stringers seagull impression appealing for penalties at pretty much every ruck or maul used to grate me no end.
@stodders not sure Havili qualifies as an x-factor player.
Goodhue, Havili, ALB are all more in the technical mould than x-factor, and when fit I reckon one of these definitely starts.
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
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@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you unpick the "Foster must go" argument and ask how many Tests you'd give a Foster-replacement to improve things (like the win percentage) before he too gets sacked, things get a bit more vague and/or complicated for some reason. Really can't think why if the quality of the coach is a key problem.
You asked this on the other thread, and it's a great challenge.
The consensus was it's not just the losing, but the way we're losing. We seem miles behind other nations, particularly England France Ireland in our attacking and defensive patterns. Our players no longer seem to be better than the opposition at the core skills and vision.
So, a better record, and/or visible improvements in the way we play.
If Foster had the team playing well and we lost to a better side, most folk would accept that as steps on the journey. Right now we're seeing players seem to get worse in the AB environment; muddled thinking, poor skills, woeful kicking, lack of clarity of action and gameplan, and slow speed of thought.
Great post.
NZR were so quick to fire Mitchell and Deans who went through a clean sweep of the Tri-Nations, put 50 points on SA and Australia away. Won the Bledisloe and then lost one game, the semi and were fired. I think it was the only second game they lost that season. I think the All Blacks will be stronger for the changes but a 0-2 loss might be what the All Blacks really need.
@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you unpick the "Foster must go" argument and ask how many Tests you'd give a Foster-replacement to improve things (like the win percentage) before he too gets sacked, things get a bit more vague and/or complicated for some reason. Really can't think why if the quality of the coach is a key problem.
You asked this on the other thread, and it's a great challenge.
The consensus was it's not just the losing, but the way we're losing. We seem miles behind other nations, particularly England France Ireland in our attacking and defensive patterns. Our players no longer seem to be better than the opposition at the core skills and vision.
So, a better record, and/or visible improvements in the way we play.
If Foster had the team playing well and we lost to a better side, most folk would accept that as steps on the journey. Right now we're seeing players seem to get worse in the AB environment; muddled thinking, poor skills, woeful kicking, lack of clarity of action and gameplan, and slow speed of thought.
Great post.
NZR were so quick to fire Mitchell and Deans who went through a clean sweep of the Tri-Nations, put 50 points on SA and Australia away. Won the Bledisloe and then lost one game, the semi and were fired. I think it was the only second game they lost that season. I think the All Blacks will be stronger for the changes but a 0-2 loss might be what the All Blacks really need.
Mitch's dismissal was less to do with results and more to do with the division he created with every aspect of NZ rugby, players, administrators, media, public, sponsors. He pissed everybody off.
In Keith Quinn's book on 2003 (Journey to Nowhere) there's the story of a high ranking NZRU official who, when asked about the coach's future and what would happen if they won the World Cup, said something like "That would make things, umm, awkward".
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@Victor-Meldrew Peter Stringers seagull impression appealing for penalties at pretty much every ruck or maul used to grate me no end.
@stodders not sure Havili qualifies as an x-factor player.
Goodhue, Havili, ALB are all more in the technical mould than x-factor, and when fit I reckon one of these definitely starts.
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
What you've said makes a heck of a lot of sense and is almost a penny-drop moment for me. Explains why when we stop the fancy-Dan stuff and go back to the basics when behind, we seem to go really well - e.g. 3rd 20 against France and the 2nd 20 in Ireland III
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
When you unpick the "Foster must go" argument and ask how many Tests you'd give a Foster-replacement to improve things (like the win percentage) before he too gets sacked, things get a bit more vague and/or complicated for some reason. Really can't think why if the quality of the coach is a key problem.
You asked this on the other thread, and it's a great challenge.
The consensus was it's not just the losing, but the way we're losing. We seem miles behind other nations, particularly England France Ireland in our attacking and defensive patterns. Our players no longer seem to be better than the opposition at the core skills and vision.
So, a better record, and/or visible improvements in the way we play.
If Foster had the team playing well and we lost to a better side, most folk would accept that as steps on the journey. Right now we're seeing players seem to get worse in the AB environment; muddled thinking, poor skills, woeful kicking, lack of clarity of action and gameplan, and slow speed of thought.
Great post.
NZR were so quick to fire Mitchell and Deans who went through a clean sweep of the Tri-Nations, put 50 points on SA and Australia away. Won the Bledisloe and then lost one game, the semi and were fired. I think it was the only second game they lost that season. I think the All Blacks will be stronger for the changes but a 0-2 loss might be what the All Blacks really need.
Mitch's dismissal was less to do with results and more to do with the division he created with every aspect of NZ rugby, players, administrators, media, public, sponsors. He pissed everybody off.
In Keith Quinn's book on 2003 (Journey to Nowhere) there's the story of a high ranking NZRU official who, when asked about the coach's future and what would happen if they won the World Cup, said something like "That would make things, umm, awkward".
@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Mitch's dismissal was less to do with results and more to do with the division he created with every aspect of NZ rugby, players, administrators, media, public, sponsors. He pissed everybody off.
He also pissed off a lot of people like Josh Kronfeld by picking McCaw out of nowhere and "giving All Black jerseys out too easily" so I guess we can forgive him that one...
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@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Mitch's dismissal was less to do with results and more to do with the division he created with every aspect of NZ rugby, players, administrators, media, public, sponsors. He pissed everybody off.
He also pissed off a lot of people like Josh Kronfeld by picking McCaw out of nowhere and "giving All Black jerseys out too easily" so I guess we can forgive him that one...
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Mitch's dismissal was less to do with results and more to do with the division he created with every aspect of NZ rugby, players, administrators, media, public, sponsors. He pissed everybody off.
He also pissed off a lot of people like Josh Kronfeld by picking McCaw out of nowhere and "giving All Black jerseys out too easily" so I guess we can forgive him that one...
I blame Deans…
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@Victor-Meldrew Peter Stringers seagull impression appealing for penalties at pretty much every ruck or maul used to grate me no end.
@stodders not sure Havili qualifies as an x-factor player.
Goodhue, Havili, ALB are all more in the technical mould than x-factor, and when fit I reckon one of these definitely starts.
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Peter Stringers seagull impression appealing for penalties at pretty much every ruck or maul used to grate me no end.
@stodders not sure Havili qualifies as an x-factor player.
Goodhue, Havili, ALB are all more in the technical mould than x-factor, and when fit I reckon one of these definitely starts.
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
In MF I still feel the mix isn't right. Our greatest midfield pairs of my lifetime had one strong man (Nonu, who ended up being a very good distributor, and Bunce) and a distributor type (Snake, Little). Maybe RTS can be the direct runner with his league background?
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Peter Stringers seagull impression appealing for penalties at pretty much every ruck or maul used to grate me no end.
@stodders not sure Havili qualifies as an x-factor player.
Goodhue, Havili, ALB are all more in the technical mould than x-factor, and when fit I reckon one of these definitely starts.
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
In MF I still feel the mix isn't right. Our greatest midfield pairs of my lifetime had one strong man (Nonu, who ended up being a very good distributor, and Bunce) and a distributor type (Snake, Little). Maybe RTS can be the direct runner with his league background?
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Peter Stringers seagull impression appealing for penalties at pretty much every ruck or maul used to grate me no end.
@stodders not sure Havili qualifies as an x-factor player.
Goodhue, Havili, ALB are all more in the technical mould than x-factor, and when fit I reckon one of these definitely starts.
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
In MF I still feel the mix isn't right. Our greatest midfield pairs of my lifetime had one strong man (Nonu, who ended up being a very good distributor, and Bunce) and a distributor type (Snake, Little). Maybe RTS can be the direct runner with his league background?
Reiko is pretty direct when he wants to be.
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@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Peter Stringers seagull impression appealing for penalties at pretty much every ruck or maul used to grate me no end.
@stodders not sure Havili qualifies as an x-factor player.
Goodhue, Havili, ALB are all more in the technical mould than x-factor, and when fit I reckon one of these definitely starts.
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
In MF I still feel the mix isn't right. Our greatest midfield pairs of my lifetime had one strong man (Nonu, who ended up being a very good distributor, and Bunce) and a distributor type (Snake, Little). Maybe RTS can be the direct runner with his league background?
Reiko is pretty direct when he wants to be.
@MN5 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Peter Stringers seagull impression appealing for penalties at pretty much every ruck or maul used to grate me no end.
@stodders not sure Havili qualifies as an x-factor player.
Goodhue, Havili, ALB are all more in the technical mould than x-factor, and when fit I reckon one of these definitely starts.
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
In MF I still feel the mix isn't right. Our greatest midfield pairs of my lifetime had one strong man (Nonu, who ended up being a very good distributor, and Bunce) and a distributor type (Snake, Little). Maybe RTS can be the direct runner with his league background?
Reiko is pretty direct when he wants to be.
Might just need a backs coach who can actually make a gameplan to exploit him
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@MN5 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Peter Stringers seagull impression appealing for penalties at pretty much every ruck or maul used to grate me no end.
@stodders not sure Havili qualifies as an x-factor player.
Goodhue, Havili, ALB are all more in the technical mould than x-factor, and when fit I reckon one of these definitely starts.
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
In MF I still feel the mix isn't right. Our greatest midfield pairs of my lifetime had one strong man (Nonu, who ended up being a very good distributor, and Bunce) and a distributor type (Snake, Little). Maybe RTS can be the direct runner with his league background?
Reiko is pretty direct when he wants to be.
Might just need a backs coach who can actually make a gameplan to exploit him
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@MN5 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Peter Stringers seagull impression appealing for penalties at pretty much every ruck or maul used to grate me no end.
@stodders not sure Havili qualifies as an x-factor player.
Goodhue, Havili, ALB are all more in the technical mould than x-factor, and when fit I reckon one of these definitely starts.
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
In MF I still feel the mix isn't right. Our greatest midfield pairs of my lifetime had one strong man (Nonu, who ended up being a very good distributor, and Bunce) and a distributor type (Snake, Little). Maybe RTS can be the direct runner with his league background?
Reiko is pretty direct when he wants to be.
Might just need a backs coach who can actually make a gameplan to exploit him
Steady on, that’s asking a lot.
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@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@MN5 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Peter Stringers seagull impression appealing for penalties at pretty much every ruck or maul used to grate me no end.
@stodders not sure Havili qualifies as an x-factor player.
Goodhue, Havili, ALB are all more in the technical mould than x-factor, and when fit I reckon one of these definitely starts.
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
In MF I still feel the mix isn't right. Our greatest midfield pairs of my lifetime had one strong man (Nonu, who ended up being a very good distributor, and Bunce) and a distributor type (Snake, Little). Maybe RTS can be the direct runner with his league background?
Reiko is pretty direct when he wants to be.
Might just need a backs coach who can actually make a gameplan to exploit him
Steady on, that’s asking a lot.
@MN5 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@MN5 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Peter Stringers seagull impression appealing for penalties at pretty much every ruck or maul used to grate me no end.
@stodders not sure Havili qualifies as an x-factor player.
Goodhue, Havili, ALB are all more in the technical mould than x-factor, and when fit I reckon one of these definitely starts.
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
In MF I still feel the mix isn't right. Our greatest midfield pairs of my lifetime had one strong man (Nonu, who ended up being a very good distributor, and Bunce) and a distributor type (Snake, Little). Maybe RTS can be the direct runner with his league background?
Reiko is pretty direct when he wants to be.
Might just need a backs coach who can actually make a gameplan to exploit him
Steady on, that’s asking a lot.
Right now it's asking a hell of a lot
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Peter Stringers seagull impression appealing for penalties at pretty much every ruck or maul used to grate me no end.
@stodders not sure Havili qualifies as an x-factor player.
Goodhue, Havili, ALB are all more in the technical mould than x-factor, and when fit I reckon one of these definitely starts.
For other positions I agree, we are picking players and have a gameplan that seems to rely on x-factor or a moreso a moment of brilliance to open the game up.
In MF I still feel the mix isn't right. Our greatest midfield pairs of my lifetime had one strong man (Nonu, who ended up being a very good distributor, and Bunce) and a distributor type (Snake, Little). Maybe RTS can be the direct runner with his league background?
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@canefan I really think he’s too small for second five. He needs space to operate and I really don’t see him being successful at second five.
I'm now wondering who our 3rd 10 is. Are they relying on DMac to come back all test ready?
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@canefan I really think he’s too small for second five. He needs space to operate and I really don’t see him being successful at second five.
@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan I really think he’s too small for second five. He needs space to operate and I really don’t see him being successful at second five.
We need to replace Nonu. Most of our guys strike me as being the finesse player in the MF partnership. I think ALB has to be one of the guys and we need to find the right partner for him
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@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan I really think he’s too small for second five. He needs space to operate and I really don’t see him being successful at second five.
We need to replace Nonu. Most of our guys strike me as being the finesse player in the MF partnership. I think ALB has to be one of the guys and we need to find the right partner for him
@canefan would the closest be Leicester then? Quinn is kind of half-half.
Of course we could just reprise the midfield pairing of Reece at 12 and Tupaea at 13
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/125552811/how-new-all-blacks-midfielder-quinn-tupaea-was-nearly-lost-to-the-loose-forwardsAchieving the rare feat of breaking into the school’s 1st XV in Year 11, Tupaea lined up at centre to form one heck of a midfield, with the dynamic Sevu Reece inside him at No 12, having been shifted from the wing for his final year. -
@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan I really think he’s too small for second five. He needs space to operate and I really don’t see him being successful at second five.
We need to replace Nonu. Most of our guys strike me as being the finesse player in the MF partnership. I think ALB has to be one of the guys and we need to find the right partner for him
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan I really think he’s too small for second five. He needs space to operate and I really don’t see him being successful at second five.
We need to replace Nonu. Most of our guys strike me as being the finesse player in the MF partnership. I think ALB has to be one of the guys and we need to find the right partner for him
ALB at 2nd V would be ideal if he hadn't been fucked around for so long. He has (had) a good offload game and was pretty strong around the tackle,. That would cause issues at the Chiefs though, as arguably our best midfield would be QT/ALB.
Likely we should have kept Sullivan and tried ALB/Sullivan with QT off the bench. I understand why we kept Nanvikell, but as has been seen, Sullivan is class and needed game time.
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@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan I really think he’s too small for second five. He needs space to operate and I really don’t see him being successful at second five.
We need to replace Nonu. Most of our guys strike me as being the finesse player in the MF partnership. I think ALB has to be one of the guys and we need to find the right partner for him
ALB at 2nd V would be ideal if he hadn't been fucked around for so long. He has (had) a good offload game and was pretty strong around the tackle,. That would cause issues at the Chiefs though, as arguably our best midfield would be QT/ALB.
Likely we should have kept Sullivan and tried ALB/Sullivan with QT off the bench. I understand why we kept Nanvikell, but as has been seen, Sullivan is class and needed game time.
@gt12 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan I really think he’s too small for second five. He needs space to operate and I really don’t see him being successful at second five.
We need to replace Nonu. Most of our guys strike me as being the finesse player in the MF partnership. I think ALB has to be one of the guys and we need to find the right partner for him
ALB at 2nd V would be ideal if he hadn't been fucked around for so long. He has (had) a good offload game and was pretty strong around the tackle,. That would cause issues at the Chiefs though, as arguably our best midfield would be QT/ALB.
Likely we should have kept Sullivan and tried ALB/Sullivan with QT off the bench. I understand why we kept Nanvikell, but as has been seen, Sullivan is class and needed game time.
How bout one of those Umaga Jensens ? They seem pretty big strong and fast.
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Thing is, Nonu, as he was those last couple of years was a generational player, we may not see the likes of him again in Black, but unfortunately he, like Richie, DC, Conrad et al may not come our way again anytime soon, if at all.
So we need to look at the ones we have and learn how to use thier talents.
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@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan I really think he’s too small for second five. He needs space to operate and I really don’t see him being successful at second five.
We need to replace Nonu. Most of our guys strike me as being the finesse player in the MF partnership. I think ALB has to be one of the guys and we need to find the right partner for him
ALB at 2nd V would be ideal if he hadn't been fucked around for so long. He has (had) a good offload game and was pretty strong around the tackle,. That would cause issues at the Chiefs though, as arguably our best midfield would be QT/ALB.
Likely we should have kept Sullivan and tried ALB/Sullivan with QT off the bench. I understand why we kept Nanvikell, but as has been seen, Sullivan is class and needed game time.
@gt12 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
ALB at 2nd V would be ideal if he hadn't been fucked around for so long.
The way he was buggered about by Hansen it's amazing he stuck with NZR rather than bugger off overseas for some serious moolah
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@Frank said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Foster is a problem and Razor would be a better coach. I am not sure why you are doubting this.
I admire your absolute certainty, I really do. He's a great coach at SR level, but think about where we'd be if Robertson repeats his U20 record with the AB's. In an ideal world he'd have taken an Assistant role so he could ease himself in but he turned that down saying it was head-honcho or nothing. You can say he didn't want to work under a clown, but the optics are poor.
Fair enough. But ceteris paribus, we gotta go with the best coach we can find first to see if that has a major influence. As for testing that coach, we would want to see an improvement in coherency, playing style, and yes results.
I don't see the ABs as a "suck it and see", experimental test-tube environment - we have to do better than that.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Frank said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Foster is a problem and Razor would be a better coach. I am not sure why you are doubting this.
I admire your absolute certainty, I really do. He's a great coach at SR level, but think about where we'd be if Robertson repeats his U20 record with the AB's.
What record are you speaking of exactly?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_national_under-20_rugby_union_team#Coaches
His 93% win-record across 2015/16 seasons
despite being only 40 & 41 at the time, and only having 2 years of head coaching experience at that stage, Robertson is 48 next month and has now had 11 years of experience as a head coach, in contrast Rennie was already 47 and was already a seasoned coach with 9 years of head coaching experience when he coached the NZ U20's, meanwhile Razor was just starting out & still holds the 2nd best record for long-term NZ U20 coaches, a record a lot better than Chris Boyd (60%) and others.Consider how much better of a coach Razor is now? Coaches typically peak around their late 40's until their mid 50's.
Robertson is a student of the game who's in dialogue with Eddie Jones, Craig Bellamy, Wayne Smith, O'Gara, etc..
He's always looking to improve & seeking alternative viewpoints from NH coaches, learnt & from the best and has genuinely honed his craft since starting off at Sumner. He's at least 3x times a better coach now than he was back in 2016.
