All Blacks 2022
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@Frye said in All Blacks 2022:
What's exciting about Barrett at 12 is that we might finally have a threat there so that opposition are actually focusing on that channel defensively
Well, Australia didn't seem to buy into that theory. Be interesting to see how Jordie goes when he's actually the focus of the opposition defence.
Presumably that opens up opportunities for others - especially with Jordie's offloading and passing ability.
Only if the opposition allow him to off-load and pass as easily as the Oz defence did.
Then you also have other opportunities around using Jordie as decoy etc.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@Frye said in All Blacks 2022:
What's exciting about Barrett at 12 is that we might finally have a threat there so that opposition are actually focusing on that channel defensively
Well, Australia didn't seem to buy into that theory. Be interesting to see how Jordie goes when he's actually the focus of the opposition defence.
Presumably that opens up opportunities for others - especially with Jordie's offloading and passing ability.
Only if the opposition allow him to off-load and pass as easily as the Oz defence did.
Then you also have other opportunities around using Jordie as decoy etc.
As you would with any other player. I hope he gets another run at 12 and he's a success but I recall the same things being said about SBW when he came on the scene. He was outstanding against England but was torn a new one by Wales in his next Test and was subbed at halftime. Not quite Henry Paul - bad, mind, but not good either.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@Frye said in All Blacks 2022:
What's exciting about Barrett at 12 is that we might finally have a threat there so that opposition are actually focusing on that channel defensively
Well, Australia didn't seem to buy into that theory. Be interesting to see how Jordie goes when he's actually the focus of the opposition defence.
Presumably that opens up opportunities for others - especially with Jordie's offloading and passing ability.
Only if the opposition allow him to off-load and pass as easily as the Oz defence did.
Then you also have other opportunities around using Jordie as decoy etc.
As you would with any other player. I hope he gets another run at 12 and he's a success but I recall the same things being said about SBW when he came on the scene. He was outstanding against England but was torn a new one by Wales in his next Test and was subbed at halftime. Not quite Henry Paul - bad, mind, but not good either.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@Frye said in All Blacks 2022:
What's exciting about Barrett at 12 is that we might finally have a threat there so that opposition are actually focusing on that channel defensively
Well, Australia didn't seem to buy into that theory. Be interesting to see how Jordie goes when he's actually the focus of the opposition defence.
Presumably that opens up opportunities for others - especially with Jordie's offloading and passing ability.
Only if the opposition allow him to off-load and pass as easily as the Oz defence did.
Then you also have other opportunities around using Jordie as decoy etc.
As you would with any other player. I hope he gets another run at 12 and he's a success but I recall the same things being said about SBW when he came on the scene. He was outstanding against England but was torn a new one by Wales in his next Test and was subbed at halftime. Not quite Henry Paul - bad, mind, but not good either.
Not exactly - the idea is if the opposition defence is keyed in on a player (moreso than any other player) that then opens up more opportunities for others.
As for SBW I don't see the comparison - I recall being slightly disappointed with his test debut vs England given how much hype SBW came in with as he had been carving up the NPC for Canterbury - there was the odd glimpse in that game but was nowhere near the performance of Jordie - with SBW it was more of a realisation of 'test rugby is a different ball game to NPC for Canterbury so it's going to take some time'.
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that try scoring list shows how brutal the ABs have been with wingers. Some all-time greats who in many other nations would have continued to get picked until they retired were cut with probably a bit left in the tank
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that try scoring list shows how brutal the ABs have been with wingers. Some all-time greats who in many other nations would have continued to get picked until they retired were cut with probably a bit left in the tank
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
that try scoring list shows how brutal the ABs have been with wingers. Some all-time greats who in many other nations would have continued to get picked until they retired were cut with probably a bit left in the tank
Indeed. Bryan Habana and Shane Williams both played for about a thousand years each
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We also have the weird situation of two players just starring on the wing for a RWC and then basically disappearing. Three if you count Graig Green.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
We also have the weird situation of two players just starring on the wing for a RWC and then basically disappearing. Three if you count Graig Green.
??
NMS and ?
@booboo said in All Blacks 2022:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
We also have the weird situation of two players just starring on the wing for a RWC and then basically disappearing. Three if you count Graig Green.
??
NMS and ?
Kahui.
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that try scoring list shows how brutal the ABs have been with wingers. Some all-time greats who in many other nations would have continued to get picked until they retired were cut with probably a bit left in the tank
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
that try scoring list shows how brutal the ABs have been with wingers. Some all-time greats who in many other nations would have continued to get picked until they retired were cut with probably a bit left in the tank
Indeed. Our wingers seem to peak in their early 20's and then are gone by 26/27. I think it's because we produce so many talented wingers. I mean - Savea, Rokococko, Sivivatu, Howlett all played their last tests before hitting 30.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@Frye said in All Blacks 2022:
What's exciting about Barrett at 12 is that we might finally have a threat there so that opposition are actually focusing on that channel defensively
Well, Australia didn't seem to buy into that theory. Be interesting to see how Jordie goes when he's actually the focus of the opposition defence.
Presumably that opens up opportunities for others - especially with Jordie's offloading and passing ability.
Only if the opposition allow him to off-load and pass as easily as the Oz defence did.
Then you also have other opportunities around using Jordie as decoy etc.
As you would with any other player. I hope he gets another run at 12 and he's a success but I recall the same things being said about SBW when he came on the scene. He was outstanding against England but was torn a new one by Wales in his next Test and was subbed at halftime. Not quite Henry Paul - bad, mind, but not good either.
Not exactly - the idea is if the opposition defence is keyed in on a player (moreso than any other player) that then opens up more opportunities for others.
As for SBW I don't see the comparison - I recall being slightly disappointed with his test debut vs England given how much hype SBW came in with as he had been carving up the NPC for Canterbury - there was the odd glimpse in that game but was nowhere near the performance of Jordie - with SBW it was more of a realisation of 'test rugby is a different ball game to NPC for Canterbury so it's going to take some time'.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
Not exactly - the idea is if the opposition defence is keyed in on a player (moreso than any other player) that then opens up more opportunities for others.
Only if the opposition defence is keyed up on that player more than any other player - and we don't yet know that's going to be the case until 2-3 more games. I hope it is, but honestly, at this stage, I'd happily just settle for a 12 who's consistently OK and doesn't get injured.
As for SBW I don't see the comparison - I recall being slightly disappointed with his test debut vs England given how much hype SBW came in with as he had been carving up the NPC for Canterbury - there was the odd glimpse in that game but was nowhere near the performance of Jordie - with SBW it was more of a realisation of 'test rugby is a different ball game to NPC for Canterbury so it's going to take some time'.
I do. SBW had played 2-3 seasons for Toulon at 12 & 13 under Tana; tutelage so was pretty used to the game by the time he made his debut at 12. But you're right that he was only OK to good against England - I meant to say Scotland where he got rave reviews. But the point, that he was exposed in his next Test, still stands.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@Frye said in All Blacks 2022:
What's exciting about Barrett at 12 is that we might finally have a threat there so that opposition are actually focusing on that channel defensively
Well, Australia didn't seem to buy into that theory. Be interesting to see how Jordie goes when he's actually the focus of the opposition defence.
Presumably that opens up opportunities for others - especially with Jordie's offloading and passing ability.
Only if the opposition allow him to off-load and pass as easily as the Oz defence did.
Then you also have other opportunities around using Jordie as decoy etc.
As you would with any other player. I hope he gets another run at 12 and he's a success but I recall the same things being said about SBW when he came on the scene. He was outstanding against England but was torn a new one by Wales in his next Test and was subbed at halftime. Not quite Henry Paul - bad, mind, but not good either.
@Victor-Meldrew that's not unlike the Saffas always crowing about Jonah having never scored against them, ignoring the fact it allowed 2 other guys that didn't really need the extra space, extra space and scored a fuckton of tries.
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@Victor-Meldrew that's not unlike the Saffas always crowing about Jonah having never scored against them, ignoring the fact it allowed 2 other guys that didn't really need the extra space, extra space and scored a fuckton of tries.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew that's not unlike the Saffas always crowing about Jonah having never scored against them, ignoring the fact it allowed 2 other guys that didn't really need the extra space, extra space and scored a fuckton of tries.
I just think we see to see Jordie up against decent opposition teams who've analysed his play at 12 before we start calling him the new Nonu or Lomu creating acres of space outside him.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@Frye said in All Blacks 2022:
What's exciting about Barrett at 12 is that we might finally have a threat there so that opposition are actually focusing on that channel defensively
Well, Australia didn't seem to buy into that theory. Be interesting to see how Jordie goes when he's actually the focus of the opposition defence.
Presumably that opens up opportunities for others - especially with Jordie's offloading and passing ability.
Only if the opposition allow him to off-load and pass as easily as the Oz defence did.
Then you also have other opportunities around using Jordie as decoy etc.
As you would with any other player. I hope he gets another run at 12 and he's a success but I recall the same things being said about SBW when he came on the scene. He was outstanding against England but was torn a new one by Wales in his next Test and was subbed at halftime. Not quite Henry Paul - bad, mind, but not good either.
Not exactly - the idea is if the opposition defence is keyed in on a player (moreso than any other player) that then opens up more opportunities for others.
As for SBW I don't see the comparison - I recall being slightly disappointed with his test debut vs England given how much hype SBW came in with as he had been carving up the NPC for Canterbury - there was the odd glimpse in that game but was nowhere near the performance of Jordie - with SBW it was more of a realisation of 'test rugby is a different ball game to NPC for Canterbury so it's going to take some time'.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@Frye said in All Blacks 2022:
What's exciting about Barrett at 12 is that we might finally have a threat there so that opposition are actually focusing on that channel defensively
Well, Australia didn't seem to buy into that theory. Be interesting to see how Jordie goes when he's actually the focus of the opposition defence.
Presumably that opens up opportunities for others - especially with Jordie's offloading and passing ability.
Only if the opposition allow him to off-load and pass as easily as the Oz defence did.
Then you also have other opportunities around using Jordie as decoy etc.
As you would with any other player. I hope he gets another run at 12 and he's a success but I recall the same things being said about SBW when he came on the scene. He was outstanding against England but was torn a new one by Wales in his next Test and was subbed at halftime. Not quite Henry Paul - bad, mind, but not good either.
Not exactly - the idea is if the opposition defence is keyed in on a player (moreso than any other player) that then opens up more opportunities for others.
As for SBW I don't see the comparison - I recall being slightly disappointed with his test debut vs England given how much hype SBW came in with as he had been carving up the NPC for Canterbury - there was the odd glimpse in that game but was nowhere near the performance of Jordie - with SBW it was more of a realisation of 'test rugby is a different ball game to NPC for Canterbury so it's going to take some time'.
I don’t think there was so much hype about his rugby play per se, but more so the hype around him as an individual. Some got a bit over excited about his offload game but those that watched him play league and at Toulon knew that was just a natural part of him as a footy player.
The thing when he made his test debut was that he wasn’t going to be first choice at the position he was playing (or at centre). He was going to be a backup option.
Jordie is now a seasoned test player and the experience he has even if it is playing other positions is pretty invaluable.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew that's not unlike the Saffas always crowing about Jonah having never scored against them, ignoring the fact it allowed 2 other guys that didn't really need the extra space, extra space and scored a fuckton of tries.
I just think we see to see Jordie up against decent opposition teams who've analysed his play at 12 before we start calling him the new Nonu or Lomu creating acres of space outside him.
@Victor-Meldrew well you could say it is similar to Aaron Smith and the fact he rarely.runs the ball, therefore opposition know he will pass it, or, you see him setting up for the kick, much easier to get your defensive alignment reset if one of the threats is removed.
You use players like Jordie, Rieko or Clarke to attract defenders, and then recycle the ball quickly or use them as decoys to runners either side of them.
But.if the person with the ball isn't a running threat I is easy to set for defending
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@Victor-Meldrew well you could say it is similar to Aaron Smith and the fact he rarely.runs the ball, therefore opposition know he will pass it, or, you see him setting up for the kick, much easier to get your defensive alignment reset if one of the threats is removed.
You use players like Jordie, Rieko or Clarke to attract defenders, and then recycle the ball quickly or use them as decoys to runners either side of them.
But.if the person with the ball isn't a running threat I is easy to set for defending
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
You use players like Jordie, Rieko or Clarke to attract defenders, and then recycle the ball quickly or use them as decoys to runners either side of them.
Yeah, I'm kinda aware of the theory. Great if it works going forward with Jordie at 12 so let's see how it goes. If it doesn't pan out, we can always keep BB at 15 & stick Jordie out on the wing to create space......
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
You use players like Jordie, Rieko or Clarke to attract defenders, and then recycle the ball quickly or use them as decoys to runners either side of them.
Yeah, I'm kinda aware of the theory. Great if it works going forward with Jordie at 12 so let's see how it goes. If it doesn't pan out, we can always keep BB at 15 & stick Jordie out on the wing to create space......
@Victor-Meldrew pure physics says Jordie is a better option at 12 for that than Havili, without taking into account all those other factors, so as I said earlier, he just needs to be given more time there to see if he is the answer.
At the back end of a won/lost test isnt the best way to determine that, he will need to start there as well
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@Victor-Meldrew pure physics says Jordie is a better option at 12 for that than Havili, without taking into account all those other factors, so as I said earlier, he just needs to be given more time there to see if he is the answer.
At the back end of a won/lost test isnt the best way to determine that, he will need to start there as well
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew pure physics says Jordie is a better option at 12 for that than Havili, without taking into account all those other factors, so as I said earlier, he just needs to be given more time there to see if he is the answer.
At the back end of a won/lost test isnt the best way to determine that, he will need to start there as well
Hmmmm, do you think Foster needs to get Havilii on an off season bulking programme ?
….and I mean “good” bulk, not “Foster” bulk.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
Not exactly - the idea is if the opposition defence is keyed in on a player (moreso than any other player) that then opens up more opportunities for others.
Only if the opposition defence is keyed up on that player more than any other player - and we don't yet know that's going to be the case until 2-3 more games. I hope it is, but honestly, at this stage, I'd happily just settle for a 12 who's consistently OK and doesn't get injured.
As for SBW I don't see the comparison - I recall being slightly disappointed with his test debut vs England given how much hype SBW came in with as he had been carving up the NPC for Canterbury - there was the odd glimpse in that game but was nowhere near the performance of Jordie - with SBW it was more of a realisation of 'test rugby is a different ball game to NPC for Canterbury so it's going to take some time'.
I do. SBW had played 2-3 seasons for Toulon at 12 & 13 under Tana; tutelage so was pretty used to the game by the time he made his debut at 12. But you're right that he was only OK to good against England - I meant to say Scotland where he got rave reviews. But the point, that he was exposed in his next Test, still stands.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
Not exactly - the idea is if the opposition defence is keyed in on a player (moreso than any other player) that then opens up more opportunities for others.
Only if the opposition defence is keyed up on that player more than any other player - and we don't yet know that's going to be the case until 2-3 more games. I hope it is, but honestly, at this stage, I'd happily just settle for a 12 who's consistently OK and doesn't get injured.
As for SBW I don't see the comparison - I recall being slightly disappointed with his test debut vs England given how much hype SBW came in with as he had been carving up the NPC for Canterbury - there was the odd glimpse in that game but was nowhere near the performance of Jordie - with SBW it was more of a realisation of 'test rugby is a different ball game to NPC for Canterbury so it's going to take some time'.
I do. SBW had played 2-3 seasons for Toulon at 12 & 13 under Tana; tutelage so was pretty used to the game by the time he made his debut at 12. But you're right that he was only OK to good against England - I meant to say Scotland where he got rave reviews. But the point, that he was exposed in his next Test, still stands.
Who didn’t get rave reviews playing against Scotland in those days.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
Not exactly - the idea is if the opposition defence is keyed in on a player (moreso than any other player) that then opens up more opportunities for others.
Only if the opposition defence is keyed up on that player more than any other player - and we don't yet know that's going to be the case until 2-3 more games. I hope it is, but honestly, at this stage, I'd happily just settle for a 12 who's consistently OK and doesn't get injured.
As for SBW I don't see the comparison - I recall being slightly disappointed with his test debut vs England given how much hype SBW came in with as he had been carving up the NPC for Canterbury - there was the odd glimpse in that game but was nowhere near the performance of Jordie - with SBW it was more of a realisation of 'test rugby is a different ball game to NPC for Canterbury so it's going to take some time'.
I do. SBW had played 2-3 seasons for Toulon at 12 & 13 under Tana; tutelage so was pretty used to the game by the time he made his debut at 12. But you're right that he was only OK to good against England - I meant to say Scotland where he got rave reviews. But the point, that he was exposed in his next Test, still stands.
Who didn’t get rave reviews playing against Scotland in those days.
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
Not exactly - the idea is if the opposition defence is keyed in on a player (moreso than any other player) that then opens up more opportunities for others.
Only if the opposition defence is keyed up on that player more than any other player - and we don't yet know that's going to be the case until 2-3 more games. I hope it is, but honestly, at this stage, I'd happily just settle for a 12 who's consistently OK and doesn't get injured.
As for SBW I don't see the comparison - I recall being slightly disappointed with his test debut vs England given how much hype SBW came in with as he had been carving up the NPC for Canterbury - there was the odd glimpse in that game but was nowhere near the performance of Jordie - with SBW it was more of a realisation of 'test rugby is a different ball game to NPC for Canterbury so it's going to take some time'.
I do. SBW had played 2-3 seasons for Toulon at 12 & 13 under Tana; tutelage so was pretty used to the game by the time he made his debut at 12. But you're right that he was only OK to good against England - I meant to say Scotland where he got rave reviews. But the point, that he was exposed in his next Test, still stands.
Who didn’t get rave reviews playing against Scotland in those days.
This is their year.
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@Victor-Meldrew pure physics says Jordie is a better option at 12 for that than Havili, without taking into account all those other factors, so as I said earlier, he just needs to be given more time there to see if he is the answer.
At the back end of a won/lost test isnt the best way to determine that, he will need to start there as well
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
he just needs to be given more time there to see if he is the answer.
That's what I'm saying as well. Way too early to judge.
At the back end of a won/lost test isnt the best way to determine that, he will need to start there as well
There's the problem for the Foster Co-Op. Not many Tests before RW2023 to find out and bed players in
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
he just needs to be given more time there to see if he is the answer.
That's what I'm saying as well. Way too early to judge.
At the back end of a won/lost test isnt the best way to determine that, he will need to start there as well
There's the problem for the Foster Co-Op. Not many Tests before RW2023 to find out and bed players in
@Victor-Meldrew especially when they wasted plenty this last year or so barely making any changes unless forced...
