Foster, Robertson etc
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
So, there is a precedent for a coach coming out of Christchurch with a good provincial record
Both Wayne Smith and Scott Robertson were born, raised & schooled in Mooloo country
from Putāruru & Mt Maunganui respectively, so perhaps you should change your record.Since when is Mt Maunganui been in 'Mooloo' country? The BOP Mafia will be readying a horses head for you as we speak.
On our maps it's just coloured grey and labelled "mid-North Island swamp".
Extends from the Auckland airport terminal building to Petone.
@Chris-B said in Foster:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
So, there is a precedent for a coach coming out of Christchurch with a good provincial record
Both Wayne Smith and Scott Robertson were born, raised & schooled in Mooloo country
from Putāruru & Mt Maunganui respectively, so perhaps you should change your record.Since when is Mt Maunganui been in 'Mooloo' country? The BOP Mafia will be readying a horses head for you as we speak.
On our maps it's just coloured grey and labelled "mid-North Island swamp".
Extends from the Auckland airport terminal building to Petone.
horse head on the way..short on postage but that's ok, we know you flush with cash!
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@Chris-B said in Foster:
I'm on the Razor bandwagon.
I used to think that if you had the cattle then any vaguely competent coach could get them across the line - but, Rennie (and Smith) vs Foster and then Razor vs Toddy Blackadder convinced me I was thinking bullshit.
Instantaneous improvement to repeated victory.
I reckon under Fozzie we're getting similar results to what we'd be getting under Toddy. Decent people, competent coaches, trying their best - but, they just don't quite have the magic touch.
Razor may not be able to work his magic with the ABs post-2023 (see Rennie and the Wallabies), but I reckon we'd be silly not to give him the shot.
Crusaders didn't win a title for a decade with their most talented & laden with international (Samoa, Fiji incl.) squads ever.
Almost all of these players left, Razor and a bunch of kids in their early 20's came in, and they won a title every year since.
That's just the Crusaders. When you look at what happened to Canterbury after Razor left, the team has been underwhelming. Very inconsistent. A constant rotation of coaches coming in and out.
People rightly focus on his Canterbury and Crusaders records, but he also turned Sumner from a mediocre club into Champions. He also won at U20 level after years of NZ struggling at age grade level. So his success is a lot more consistent than many realize:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
He also won at U20 level after years of NZ struggling at age grade level.
Jesus dude, you're going overboard exaggerating when you don't need to. The U20s didn't struggle for years between Rennie and Robertson. They were top 4 the entire time and it wasn't until Razor's second year that they first missed out on being top 4.
This thread has gotten totally stupid. No one is claiming Razor isn't a good coach
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@Chris-B said in Foster:
I'm on the Razor bandwagon.
I used to think that if you had the cattle then any vaguely competent coach could get them across the line - but, Rennie (and Smith) vs Foster and then Razor vs Toddy Blackadder convinced me I was thinking bullshit.
Instantaneous improvement to repeated victory.
I reckon under Fozzie we're getting similar results to what we'd be getting under Toddy. Decent people, competent coaches, trying their best - but, they just don't quite have the magic touch.
Razor may not be able to work his magic with the ABs post-2023 (see Rennie and the Wallabies), but I reckon we'd be silly not to give him the shot.
Crusaders didn't win a title for a decade with their most talented & laden with international (Samoa, Fiji incl.) squads ever.
Almost all of these players left, Razor and a bunch of kids in their early 20's came in, and they won a title every year since.
That's just the Crusaders. When you look at what happened to Canterbury after Razor left, the team has been underwhelming. Very inconsistent. A constant rotation of coaches coming in and out.
People rightly focus on his Canterbury and Crusaders records, but he also turned Sumner from a mediocre club into Champions. He also won at U20 level after years of NZ struggling at age grade level. So his success is a lot more consistent than many realize:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@Chris-B said in Foster:
I'm on the Razor bandwagon.
I used to think that if you had the cattle then any vaguely competent coach could get them across the line - but, Rennie (and Smith) vs Foster and then Razor vs Toddy Blackadder convinced me I was thinking bullshit.
Instantaneous improvement to repeated victory.
I reckon under Fozzie we're getting similar results to what we'd be getting under Toddy. Decent people, competent coaches, trying their best - but, they just don't quite have the magic touch.
Razor may not be able to work his magic with the ABs post-2023 (see Rennie and the Wallabies), but I reckon we'd be silly not to give him the shot.
Crusaders didn't win a title for a decade with their most talented & laden with international (Samoa, Fiji incl.) squads ever.
The majority of those players left, Razor and a bunch of kids in their early 20's came in, and they won a title every year since.
That's just the Crusaders. When you look at what happened to Canterbury after Razor left, the team has been underwhelming. Very inconsistent. A constant rotation of coaches coming in and out.
People rightly focus on his Canterbury and Crusaders records, but he also turned Sumner from a mediocre club into Champions. He also won at U20 level after years of NZ struggling at age grade level. So his success is a lot more consistent than many realize:
Yeah credit where credit's due. He didn't inherit a stacked team and I personally questioned whether he was too wet behind the ears for such an important gig. But he's absolutely smashed it. That cannot be denied.
I get the argument from @Victor-Meldrew that a coaching merry-go-round is neither desirable nor productive. But I guess the counterargument (apart from the rather appalling results and performances) is that Foster was part of the regime or apparatus that proverbially dropped the ball and has left us playing catch up. Razor isn't part of that, he's young and innovative and perhaps a fresh start and removing the last vestiges of the old guard is needed if we are to achieve the same level of sustained success that we've been spoilt with.
That last win against Aus excited me for the first time in ages. It was probably 90% due to seeing Jordie causing havoc at 12 (yeah fark you again doubters
) but there are some positive signs there. Foster may have inadvertently stumbled onto a winning formula. Right now I'll just have to dare to dream. It's too late to change now. Foster will be there until the end of 2023 and hopefully Razor will get his chance and a 4-year time frame following that.I must say it will be weird going into a RWC thinking we can't win it. Never felt that before. Will probably be nice not being a nervous wreck. Maybe I should thank Foster for that!
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Trying for a different take on all of this I don't particularly think that the current mess were in is all Fosters fault but we are simply watching a dynasty in decline.
It's kind of like arguing that Romulus Augustulus was the worst emperor of Rome as he was the one there when Rome finally fell apart - this would provide endless and circular debate for months.
However I do think it's fair to say that the dynasty from Henry to Hansen to Foster was simply one link too far.
Dynasty's ultimately fall apart due to their own hubris, a lack of new idea's, risk aversion due to not wanting to change what's worked in the past, inability to self critique and ultimately sitting on their own laurels till everyone else catch's up and then passes them by.
I think this is what were seeing unfold in front of us, it's not Fosters "fault" but he's certainly not the right coach to take us forward.
Simply put we've done the same thing for too long and now not only have the rest of the pack caught up - they're passing us by.
So to get rid of Foster isn't an incorrect school of thought - we desperately need someone with new ideas, a new way of doing things, the All Blacks need to be given a clean sweep and to start again with something new and Foster isn't new - he's part of the furniture.
And I guess that's the appeal with Robertson - he's seen as someone who will bring new ideas and new ways of doing things.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@Chris-B said in Foster:
I'm on the Razor bandwagon.
I used to think that if you had the cattle then any vaguely competent coach could get them across the line - but, Rennie (and Smith) vs Foster and then Razor vs Toddy Blackadder convinced me I was thinking bullshit.
Instantaneous improvement to repeated victory.
I reckon under Fozzie we're getting similar results to what we'd be getting under Toddy. Decent people, competent coaches, trying their best - but, they just don't quite have the magic touch.
Razor may not be able to work his magic with the ABs post-2023 (see Rennie and the Wallabies), but I reckon we'd be silly not to give him the shot.
Crusaders didn't win a title for a decade with their most talented & laden with international (Samoa, Fiji incl.) squads ever.
The majority of those players left, Razor and a bunch of kids in their early 20's came in, and they won a title every year since.
That's just the Crusaders. When you look at what happened to Canterbury after Razor left, the team has been underwhelming. Very inconsistent. A constant rotation of coaches coming in and out.
People rightly focus on his Canterbury and Crusaders records, but he also turned Sumner from a mediocre club into Champions. He also won at U20 level after years of NZ struggling at age grade level. So his success is a lot more consistent than many realize:
Yeah credit where credit's due. He didn't inherit a stacked team and I personally questioned whether he was too wet behind the ears for such an important gig. But he's absolutely smashed it. That cannot be denied.
I get the argument from @Victor-Meldrew that a coaching merry-go-round is neither desirable nor productive. But I guess the counterargument (apart from the rather appalling results and performances) is that Foster was part of the regime or apparatus that proverbially dropped the ball and has left us playing catch up. Razor isn't part of that, he's young and innovative and perhaps a fresh start and removing the last vestiges of the old guard is needed if we are to achieve the same level of sustained success that we've been spoilt with.
That last win against Aus excited me for the first time in ages. It was probably 90% due to seeing Jordie causing havoc at 12 (yeah fark you again doubters
) but there are some positive signs there. Foster may have inadvertently stumbled onto a winning formula. Right now I'll just have to dare to dream. It's too late to change now. Foster will be there until the end of 2023 and hopefully Razor will get his chance and a 4-year time frame following that.I must say it will be weird going into a RWC thinking we can't win it. Never felt that before. Will probably be nice not being a nervous wreck. Maybe I should thank Foster for that!
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@booboo no I'm not 50
but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.Perhaps I should specify that this current 2022 All Blacks are the worst team I've ever seen, loosing a home series to Ireland, loosing at home to Argentina for the first time and then struggling to beat Japan I honestly couldn't have written a worse script for this year (barring losing the bledisloe).
To be fair I could have lived with losing the bled as we've lost the Bled before but a series loss against Ireland on our home turf and loosing to Argentina really hurt - once a record is gone it's gone, there's no getting it back.
If there is indeed a worse team than this then my commiserations for anyone who had to watch that and I hope that this year hasn't triggered too much PTSD reliving the horrors' of the past.
@Windows97 They lost to provincial teams.
Stu Wilson's 1983 team was a low point.
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@ACT-Crusader well they got the call wrong not to award Mils the try prior to that....genuine 14 pointer that one.
@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@ACT-Crusader well they got the call wrong not to award Mils the try prior to that....genuine 14 pointer that one.
One of the great injustices in Rugby World Cup history.
@Chris-B as for the article on Razor, the wheels moved pretty swiftly, so where there’s a will there’s a way to get something done. Processes you say? What process…
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@Rancid-Schnitzel Lol curse my slow typing - you beat me to the punch
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@Rancid-Schnitzel Lol curse my slow typing - you beat me to the punch
But yours was far more elequant. Wish I'd mentioned Rome!
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@booboo no I'm not 50
but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.Perhaps I should specify that this current 2022 All Blacks are the worst team I've ever seen, loosing a home series to Ireland, loosing at home to Argentina for the first time and then struggling to beat Japan I honestly couldn't have written a worse script for this year (barring losing the bledisloe).
To be fair I could have lived with losing the bled as we've lost the Bled before but a series loss against Ireland on our home turf and loosing to Argentina really hurt - once a record is gone it's gone, there's no getting it back.
If there is indeed a worse team than this then my commiserations for anyone who had to watch that and I hope that this year hasn't triggered too much PTSD reliving the horrors' of the past.
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@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50
but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.No they just lost to Rhodesia instead ffs.
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@booboo no I'm not 50
but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.Perhaps I should specify that this current 2022 All Blacks are the worst team I've ever seen, loosing a home series to Ireland, loosing at home to Argentina for the first time and then struggling to beat Japan I honestly couldn't have written a worse script for this year (barring losing the bledisloe).
To be fair I could have lived with losing the bled as we've lost the Bled before but a series loss against Ireland on our home turf and loosing to Argentina really hurt - once a record is gone it's gone, there's no getting it back.
If there is indeed a worse team than this then my commiserations for anyone who had to watch that and I hope that this year hasn't triggered too much PTSD reliving the horrors' of the past.
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@Windows97 They lost to provincial teams.
Stu Wilson's 1983 team was a low point.
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I'm on the Razor bandwagon.
I used to think that if you had the cattle then any vaguely competent coach could get them across the line - but, Rennie (and Smith) vs Foster and then Razor vs Toddy Blackadder convinced me I was thinking bullshit.
Instantaneous improvement to repeated victory.
I reckon under Fozzie we're getting similar results to what we'd be getting under Toddy. Decent people, competent coaches, trying their best - but, they just don't quite have the magic touch.
Razor may not be able to work his magic with the ABs post-2023 (see Rennie and the Wallabies), but I reckon we'd be silly not to give him the shot.
@Chris-B said in Foster:
I'm on the Razor bandwagon.
I used to think that if you had the cattle then any vaguely competent coach could get them across the line - but, Rennie (and Smith) vs Foster and then Razor vs Toddy Blackadder convinced me I was thinking bullshit.
Instantaneous improvement to repeated victory.
I reckon under Fozzie we're getting similar results to what we'd be getting under Toddy. Decent people, competent coaches, trying their best - but, they just don't quite have the magic touch.
Razor may not be able to work his magic with the ABs post-2023 (see Rennie and the Wallabies), but I reckon we'd be silly not to give him the shot.
Not sure how you comparing Rennie/Smith and Foster to start with, Rennie won a couple with Smith when Chiefs were markedly different team than the year before, maybe when they picked up the likes of Rettalick, Cruden, Elliot, Schwalger etc (who under the previous year's rules would of been Cane's players or other squads. made a difference, because NZR opened up criteria for super team selecting. That is in no way rubbishing Rennie and Smith, who did great job, just saying you comparing apples with oranges. And no I not arguing that Foster should get job, though am not as yet convinced Razor is the the answer as I said Deans was poor as a test coach and he had similar record. Mind you I am not the one who will be deciding the next AB coach and if it is Razor he will get my full support!
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@Chris-B They lost one mid-week game against a province, drew against Scotland and lost to England.
I'd still venture a series loss at home against Ireland and your first ever loss to Argentina at home is a little worse.
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@Chris-B They lost one mid-week game against a province, drew against Scotland and lost to England.
I'd still venture a series loss at home against Ireland and your first ever loss to Argentina at home is a little worse.
I'd venture you don't remember how poor/limited NH teams were in 70s. Hell we used to regularly win , without great AB teams, hell I was a youngish one eyed AB supporter, but even I used to admit we were fielding teams of players who weren't going to be mentioned in the same breath as the ones form 60s etc. Best team from NH in 70s was 71 Lions who cleaned us out in test series, and that was after losing a game against an Aussie provincial team on way over. They were a bloody good Lions team, but we were fairly ordinary
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@Chris-B said in Foster:
I'm on the Razor bandwagon.
I used to think that if you had the cattle then any vaguely competent coach could get them across the line - but, Rennie (and Smith) vs Foster and then Razor vs Toddy Blackadder convinced me I was thinking bullshit.
Instantaneous improvement to repeated victory.
I reckon under Fozzie we're getting similar results to what we'd be getting under Toddy. Decent people, competent coaches, trying their best - but, they just don't quite have the magic touch.
Razor may not be able to work his magic with the ABs post-2023 (see Rennie and the Wallabies), but I reckon we'd be silly not to give him the shot.
Not sure how you comparing Rennie/Smith and Foster to start with, Rennie won a couple with Smith when Chiefs were markedly different team than the year before, maybe when they picked up the likes of Rettalick, Cruden, Elliot, Schwalger etc (who under the previous year's rules would of been Cane's players or other squads. made a difference, because NZR opened up criteria for super team selecting. That is in no way rubbishing Rennie and Smith, who did great job, just saying you comparing apples with oranges. And no I not arguing that Foster should get job, though am not as yet convinced Razor is the the answer as I said Deans was poor as a test coach and he had similar record. Mind you I am not the one who will be deciding the next AB coach and if it is Razor he will get my full support!
@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
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@Chris-B They lost one mid-week game against a province, drew against Scotland and lost to England.
I'd still venture a series loss at home against Ireland and your first ever loss to Argentina at home is a little worse.
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@Chris-B They lost one mid-week game against a province, drew against Scotland and lost to England.
I'd still venture a series loss at home against Ireland and your first ever loss to Argentina at home is a little worse.
Hmmm a loss at home to world number 1 Ireland and an Argentina that beat South Africa and Australia is plumbing the all time depths??
Remember that the All Blacks used to blood players in midweek fixtures or tour matches and lost a few of them along the way. Ask Pat Lam if he remembers. Nearly lost to Fiji too but was not a test match.
Now the second stringers are tested in the first xv against even the strongest opponents. Maybe that is more the reason for the variable results.
I think you might find that all teams struggle a bit for form in the couple of years before World Cup as they test players and tactics.
This is no great AB team but it is very far from the worst I have seen.
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@Windows97 said in Foster:
@Chris-B They lost one mid-week game against a province, drew against Scotland and lost to England.
I'd still venture a series loss at home against Ireland and your first ever loss to Argentina at home is a little worse.
Hmmm a loss at home to world number 1 Ireland and an Argentina that beat South Africa and Australia is plumbing the all time depths??
Remember that the All Blacks used to blood players in midweek fixtures or tour matches and lost a few of them along the way. Ask Pat Lam if he remembers. Nearly lost to Fiji too but was not a test match.
Now the second stringers are tested in the first xv against even the strongest opponents. Maybe that is more the reason for the variable results.
I think you might find that all teams struggle a bit for form in the couple of years before World Cup as they test players and tactics.
This is no great AB team but it is very far from the worst I have seen.
@ARHS I'd say there were 2 games, or more so halves of rugby this season, that are without a doubt the worst halves I have seen from the ABs.
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@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
@Chris-B said in Foster:
@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
Pfft, don't you dare mofo, the Magpies made him, we sent him to the Chiefs fully formed in 2012.
He was a bad miss by the Crusaders though, they opted for Central Hawkes Bay's Dom Bird instead (and turned him into a pussy in the process), and now BBBR is one of the AB greats and lives in Central Hawkes Bay.
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@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
@Chris-B said in Foster:
@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
Yep like I said there was no way I was dissing Rennie or Smith, just saying comparing the teams from 2011 and 12 was like comparing apples and oranges, one was basically an area team, the other was a wider selection catergory. You can't compare what coaches of each team did with what they had is all. I will say I was always a Rennie fan, even if really looks to be struggling as a test coach.
