Foster, Robertson etc
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@booboo no I'm not 50
but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.Perhaps I should specify that this current 2022 All Blacks are the worst team I've ever seen, loosing a home series to Ireland, loosing at home to Argentina for the first time and then struggling to beat Japan I honestly couldn't have written a worse script for this year (barring losing the bledisloe).
To be fair I could have lived with losing the bled as we've lost the Bled before but a series loss against Ireland on our home turf and loosing to Argentina really hurt - once a record is gone it's gone, there's no getting it back.
If there is indeed a worse team than this then my commiserations for anyone who had to watch that and I hope that this year hasn't triggered too much PTSD reliving the horrors' of the past.
@Windows97 said in Foster:
no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
No. We lost to Ireland club teams instead...
Two points.
The rugby world outside of New Zealand has moved on hugely in the last 5-10 years (just like the 1970s...) and the competitive environment is much, much tougher. I think it's a huge mistake for NZ rugby in general not to factor this in and assume our talent pool in players and coaches, is and always will be, relatively stronger than our competitors and a magic solution is available. Dangerous complacency that.
Secondly, I don't want to bang on about the olden days like a GOM, but it wasn't just the awful results and the endless string of wonder-coaches promising to recreate the glory days of 10 years past, it was the head-in-sand-recreate-the-past attitude of NZ rugby in general that was was worse. We ended up with real concerns about the future of the game in NZ as younger players left it in droves as they found game boring and unappealing. There are some echoes of that at the moment.
I think Foster should have departed after Ireland III, but I'm a lot more optimistic now than back then. Ways to go but here's some forward momentum and Foster has the coaches he wanted and a team firmly behind him. And NZR seem to be addressing some of the deeper issues, e.g. around player development with stuff like the AB XV tour.
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@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
Drew with Ireland.
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
Drew with Ireland.
And lost to Irish & English club teams.
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@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
Drew with Ireland.
And lost to Irish & English club teams.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
Drew with Ireland.
And lost to Irish & English club teams.
And Welsh. Don’t forget that famous day at Stradey Park.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
Drew with Ireland.
And lost to Irish & English club teams.
And Welsh. Don’t forget that famous day at Stradey Park.
@Catogrande said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
Drew with Ireland.
And lost to Irish & English club teams.
And Welsh. Don’t forget that famous day at Stradey Park.
Where?
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@Catogrande said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
Drew with Ireland.
And lost to Irish & English club teams.
And Welsh. Don’t forget that famous day at Stradey Park.
Where?
@Catogrande said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
Drew with Ireland.
And lost to Irish & English club teams.
And Welsh. Don’t forget that famous day at Stradey Park.
Where?
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@Chris-B said in Foster:
I'm on the Razor bandwagon.
I used to think that if you had the cattle then any vaguely competent coach could get them across the line - but, Rennie (and Smith) vs Foster and then Razor vs Toddy Blackadder convinced me I was thinking bullshit.
Instantaneous improvement to repeated victory.
I reckon under Fozzie we're getting similar results to what we'd be getting under Toddy. Decent people, competent coaches, trying their best - but, they just don't quite have the magic touch.
Razor may not be able to work his magic with the ABs post-2023 (see Rennie and the Wallabies), but I reckon we'd be silly not to give him the shot.
Not sure how you comparing Rennie/Smith and Foster to start with, Rennie won a couple with Smith when Chiefs were markedly different team than the year before, maybe when they picked up the likes of Rettalick, Cruden, Elliot, Schwalger etc (who under the previous year's rules would of been Cane's players or other squads. made a difference, because NZR opened up criteria for super team selecting. That is in no way rubbishing Rennie and Smith, who did great job, just saying you comparing apples with oranges. And no I not arguing that Foster should get job, though am not as yet convinced Razor is the the answer as I said Deans was poor as a test coach and he had similar record. Mind you I am not the one who will be deciding the next AB coach and if it is Razor he will get my full support!
And no I not arguing that Foster should get job, though am not as yet convinced Razor is the the answer as I said Deans was poor as a test coach.Robbie Deans was poor as a test coach?
Wallabies coaches post-Macqueen (minimum of 30 tests):
Eddie Jones: 57%, Ewen McKenzie: 52%, Michael Cheika: 50%, Robbie Deans 59%, Dave Rennie: 40%
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If I can work out how and have the time, energy and sobriety I'll split the 70s Bad Old Days from the whinging about Fozzie. It's kinda fascinating to remember how bad we were.
And still had Aura.
If I can work out how and have the time, energy and sobriety I'll split the 70s Bad Old Days from the whinging about Fozzie. It's kinda fascinating to remember how bad we were.
And still had Aura.
Great idea. There's some great videos available on YT as well.
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It is hard to pinpoint the problem with this current group. The talent is there, they try their hearts out, they have good support, but what happens on the pitch is just not good enough or ruthless enough to get the job done IMO (consistently win against top-tier opposition and win the World Cup). Here is my theory and I think Carlos sees it as well. It seems that the ABs camp has become too comfortable and isolated. They are the "AB family". That absolute ruthlessness and desire to get that 1 or 2 % to get over the line is not there anymore. If they don't play well, and there are few consequences. Once upon a time one bad performance and you were out of the team, possibly forever. Now we have players still there that can be terribly off the pace (Sam Cane is the classic example). Go away to Japan, no worries, you are automatically back despite not showing you are better than others. They are consistently answering their critics by saying they only worry about what is happening inside the camp, etc, etc. Not all bad things of course, maybe it is even a sign of the times and I am a grump, but just maybe it has led to inadequate performances.
Hence I really think a "clean out" is what the ABs have needed since 2019.@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster:
It is hard to pinpoint the problem with this current group. The talent is there, they try their hearts out, they have good support, but what happens on the pitch is just not good enough or ruthless enough to get the job done IMO (consistently win against top-tier opposition and win the World Cup). Here is my theory and I think Carlos sees it as well. It seems that the ABs camp has become too comfortable and isolated. They are the "AB family". That absolute ruthlessness and desire to get that 1 or 2 % to get over the line is not there anymore. If they don't play well, and there are few consequences. Once upon a time one bad performance and you were out of the team, possibly forever. Now we have players still there that can be terribly off the pace (Sam Cane is the classic example). Go away to Japan, no worries, you are automatically back despite not showing you are better than others. They are consistently answering their critics by saying they only worry about what is happening inside the camp, etc, etc. Not all bad things of course, maybe it is even a sign of the times and I am a grump, but just maybe it has led to inadequate performances.
Hence I really think a "clean out" is what the ABs have needed since 2019.Could it be our key players in key positions aren't quite as good as before and the combos are still not gelling?
We don't have great depth at props but we do have a new world-class hooker, the locks are experienced, the loosies should be great but still don't combine well, our 10s have plenty of experience but don't look dominant, our wings are at least ok, the midfield might be up and down but the players still have potential (and some have enough experience), and we should have enough fullbacks.
What really worries me, about 5(?) years ago a fringe player would leave an AB camp and return to the comp a better player. That is not so evident now, and our tactical ability and capacity to change tactics and control play seems to be getting worse and worse IMHO. Who has improved since breaking into the ABs, Samisoni, George, perhaps?
And well-organized sides seem to have our number. Are we really that tactically transparent? Joseph said as much. Carlos said it. We have enough experienced playmakers in the team, but this seems to be a continual problem.
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If I can work out how and have the time, energy and sobriety I'll split the 70s Bad Old Days from the whinging about Fozzie. It's kinda fascinating to remember how bad we were.
And still had Aura.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster:
It is hard to pinpoint the problem with this current group. The talent is there, they try their hearts out, they have good support, but what happens on the pitch is just not good enough or ruthless enough to get the job done IMO (consistently win against top-tier opposition and win the World Cup). Here is my theory and I think Carlos sees it as well. It seems that the ABs camp has become too comfortable and isolated. They are the "AB family". That absolute ruthlessness and desire to get that 1 or 2 % to get over the line is not there anymore. If they don't play well, and there are few consequences. Once upon a time one bad performance and you were out of the team, possibly forever. Now we have players still there that can be terribly off the pace (Sam Cane is the classic example). Go away to Japan, no worries, you are automatically back despite not showing you are better than others. They are consistently answering their critics by saying they only worry about what is happening inside the camp, etc, etc. Not all bad things of course, maybe it is even a sign of the times and I am a grump, but just maybe it has led to inadequate performances.
Hence I really think a "clean out" is what the ABs have needed since 2019.Could it be our key players in key positions aren't quite as good as before and the combos are still not gelling?
We don't have great depth at props but we do have a new world-class hooker, the locks are experienced, the loosies should be great but still don't combine well, our 10s have plenty of experience but don't look dominant, our wings are at least ok, the midfield might be up and down but the players still have potential (and some have enough experience), and we should have enough fullbacks.
What really worries me, about 5(?) years ago a fringe player would leave an AB camp and return to the comp a better player. That is not so evident now, and our tactical ability and capacity to change tactics and control play seems to be getting worse and worse IMHO. Who has improved since breaking into the ABs, Samisoni, George, perhaps?
And well-organized sides seem to have our number. Are we really that tactically transparent? Joseph said as much. Carlos said it. We have enough experienced playmakers in the team, but this seems to be a continual problem.
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@nostrildamus said in Foster:
Who has improved since breaking into the ABs, Samisoni, George, perhaps?
I would think the list is a lot longer than that. Ethan, Scott, Jordie, Reece,...blah
@nostrildamus said in Foster:
Who has improved since breaking into the ABs, Samisoni, George, perhaps?
I would think the list is a lot longer than that. Ethan, Scott, Jordie, Reece,...blah
Not sure about Ethan.
Scott? Maybe, but he was on an improvement trail at the Crusaders.
Jordie? At FB? Seems to have been a little better a few years ago.
Reece? Not sure about that.
I don't remember anyone of them once leaving AB camp clearly playing better at their role. Hard to prove, of course. -
@nostrildamus said in Foster:
Who has improved since breaking into the ABs, Samisoni, George, perhaps?
I would think the list is a lot longer than that. Ethan, Scott, Jordie, Reece,...blah
Not sure about Ethan.
Scott? Maybe, but he was on an improvement trail at the Crusaders.
Jordie? At FB? Seems to have been a little better a few years ago.
Reece? Not sure about that.
I don't remember anyone of them once leaving AB camp clearly playing better at their role. Hard to prove, of course. -
@nostrildamus they are all much better international players than they were 3-4 years ago. I don't know how that can even be debated.
@nostrildamus they are all much better international players than they were 3-4 years ago. I don't know how that can even be debated.
Not my point. The point here is whether being in ABs training was the factor. I'll leave it there.
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@Catogrande said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
Drew with Ireland.
And lost to Irish & English club teams.
And Welsh. Don’t forget that famous day at Stradey Park.
Where?
@Catogrande said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
Drew with Ireland.
And lost to Irish & English club teams.
And Welsh. Don’t forget that famous day at Stradey Park.
Where?
Ask any Welshman. There were all there. Apparently.
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And no I not arguing that Foster should get job, though am not as yet convinced Razor is the the answer as I said Deans was poor as a test coach.Robbie Deans was poor as a test coach?
Wallabies coaches post-Macqueen (minimum of 30 tests):
Eddie Jones: 57%, Ewen McKenzie: 52%, Michael Cheika: 50%, Robbie Deans 59%, Dave Rennie: 40%
@kiwi_expat I still don't think he was a very good test coach, as I said his selecting was his problem.'He has been very successful at lower level though, and seems to be a very good coach at that level . There is nothing wrong with that, he has strengths that maybe don't really go with test rugby.
Hell has Rennie coached Wallabies to 30 tests already? -
I think this whole thing of what makes a good coach is very difficult to judge from the outside, particularly just going off results when there are lots of contributing factors,
and maybe only those on the inside really know,
The mcaw scenario of endorsing Ted over Deans comes to mind, when most of us were probably very surprised by that, not so much later in hindsight after the 11 WC win ,
but remembering back to when it actually happened,just after the 07 worst ever WC result and Deans was applying for the Job
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@Victor-Meldrew we do a much better haka now though
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@Catogrande said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Windows97 said in Foster:
@booboo no I'm not 50 but even then I assume the terrible teams of the 70's didn't lose to Ireland and Argentina and I assume would have beaten Japan more comfortably too.
Drew with Ireland.
And lost to Irish & English club teams.
And Welsh. Don’t forget that famous day at Stradey Park.
Where?
@MiketheSnow why does Llanelli bang on about this like the All Blacks had never lost a midweek fixture before?
That 72 tour was a pretty average team.
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@Chris-B said in Foster:
@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
Yep like I said there was no way I was dissing Rennie or Smith, just saying comparing the teams from 2011 and 12 was like comparing apples and oranges, one was basically an area team, the other was a wider selection catergory. You can't compare what coaches of each team did with what they had is all. I will say I was always a Rennie fan, even if really looks to be struggling as a test coach.
@Chris-B said in Foster:
@Dan54 Yeah - the rules changed - and who took best advantage of the rule changes?
Rennie did. He recruited those players - part of being a good coach.
Retallick is from Amberley and was a bad miss by the Crusaders' system, but largely because he wasn't the player he became - primarily at the Chiefs.
Yep like I said there was no way I was dissing Rennie or Smith, just saying comparing the teams from 2011 and 12 was like comparing apples and oranges, one was basically an area team, the other was a wider selection catergory. You can't compare what coaches of each team did with what they had is all. I will say I was always a Rennie fan, even if really looks to be struggling as a test coach.
If you can't compare the results of guys who coached a team immediately after another coach, then you can't really compare any coaches at all.
However, you're prepared to conclude that Deans was a poor test coach. Compared to what? He had a very poor record against the ABs, but he had access to no AB players and just a bunch of Aussies. He had a winning record against England, France, Ireland, Wales and South
Africa.Compared to what they've had since, he might well have been a genius!
