All Blacks vs Scotland
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My final take on this is that I think @Stargazer has it right in that Havili is a very handy squaddie who can do a job in most backline positions against the minnows or in an injury crisis. But I think we not only missed a great opportunity to continue building Jordies confidence and form at 12 against a decent opposition, we went one further and put him back to 15 despite all evidence suggesting that shuffling him around fucks with his form. It's no surprise he didn't play as well as he has on the weekend.
I also take @Chris-B's point about them trying to balance the side, but I think that's a big failure of the coaches for badly underplaying Perofeta after he was the form 10/15 of Super rugby. He should have been starting at the back against Scotland with Havili on the bench.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I also take @Chris-B's point about them trying to balance the side, but I think that's a big failure of the coaches for badly underplaying Perofeta after he was the form 10/15 of Super rugby. He should have been starting at the back against Scotland with Havili on the bench.
I just don't get the use of Perofeta. Has he crapped in someone's bed or something?
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I want to see us use the Wales game plan vs the Poms. Try to smash them in the forwards for 80 minutes
To an extent yes, but their forwards are a little more shrewd than the Welsh. Would like to see the backs used a bit more, conditions permitting.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I want to see us use the Wales game plan vs the Poms. Try to smash them in the forwards for 80 minutes
To an extent yes, but their forwards are a little more shrewd than the Welsh. Would like to see the backs used a bit more, conditions permitting.
Of course. But a more direct game plan hitched to our backline rather than the helter skelter stuff from earlier in the year, and the too lateral too early stuff of circa 2019
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I also take @Chris-B's point about them trying to balance the side, but I think that's a big failure of the coaches for badly underplaying Perofeta after he was the form 10/15 of Super rugby. He should have been starting at the back against Scotland with Havili on the bench.
I just don't get the use of Perofeta. Has he crapped in someone's bed or something?
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I also take @Chris-B's point about them trying to balance the side, but I think that's a big failure of the coaches for badly underplaying Perofeta after he was the form 10/15 of Super rugby. He should have been starting at the back against Scotland with Havili on the bench.
I just don't get the use of Perofeta. Has he crapped in someone's bed or something?
I think it is ridiculous. Either you give him a decent crack or you don't. If we kick him to the curb now he can't even front for a lower tier nation, after playing less than 10 minutes total test football to date
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
That final part would make sense if they were looking to blood a backup 12. You can hardly claim that Havili hasn't had plenty of tests there
Two different arguments there. The first is whether you play JB in every Test and hope he doesn't get broken - which is a big risk based on the death-wish that playing in an AB midfield seems to be - and the second is whether DH is a viable backup at 12.
If anything Havili should have played at 15 to see what he actually offers to the squad now that JB apparently has a lock on 12.
Maybe they wanted an experienced 15 to start and didn't think DH was that player? I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
That would be a pretty ridiculous scenario IMO, moving the 12 to 15 and the 15 to 12, within the match.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
Not sure what your point is.
I get it - it doesn't paint the picture of what to do if Jordie is injured, by playing him in a different position. It also potentially opens up that very risk of Jordie getting injured.
Maybe DH would have been the best player on the planet with Perofeta at 10 and Beauden at fullback?
That's what I was thinking (well, not the "best player" bit, but the rest, yes).
First of all, I don't think DH was as bad as people are posting here. Super exaggeration Fern-style. Defensively, he was very good (11 tackles made). That intercept pas was bad, but I think that he wasn't as effective on attack as a 12 should be because he was playing outside a super slow-mo Christie and an inadequate 10. DH played his best games outside RM.
DH can play the role that Jordie played during the 2019 RWC: the guy who can play almost anywhere in the backline in the games against the minnows in our pool & Italy, and injury back-up for the other games).
Yeah it's an interesting one though eh - Christie supporters could argue that he wasn't able to perform because he was inside an awful 10. Beauden supporters, well he was inside an awful 12 and outside an awful 9. ALB was outside an awful 9-10-12. I've already seen Clarke excused because he was outside a horrible 9-10-12-13....but that gets put to bed when you see the other wing getting many votes for MOTM on debut.
I'm happy to blame it all on the ginger TBH
Is it just me or has Christie's passing from the ruck and in general got way slower? Really noticed way more snap when TJP came on.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
Not sure what your point is.
I get it - it doesn't paint the picture of what to do if Jordie is injured, by playing him in a different position. It also potentially opens up that very risk of Jordie getting injured.
Maybe DH would have been the best player on the planet with Perofeta at 10 and Beauden at fullback?
That's what I was thinking (well, not the "best player" bit, but the rest, yes).
First of all, I don't think DH was as bad as people are posting here. Super exaggeration Fern-style. Defensively, he was very good (11 tackles made). That intercept pas was bad, but I think that he wasn't as effective on attack as a 12 should be because he was playing outside a super slow-mo Christie and an inadequate 10. DH played his best games outside RM.
DH can play the role that Jordie played during the 2019 RWC: the guy who can play almost anywhere in the backline in the games against the minnows in our pool & Italy, and injury back-up for the other games).
Yeah it's an interesting one though eh - Christie supporters could argue that he wasn't able to perform because he was inside an awful 10. Beauden supporters, well he was inside an awful 12 and outside an awful 9. ALB was outside an awful 9-10-12. I've already seen Clarke excused because he was outside a horrible 9-10-12-13....but that gets put to bed when you see the other wing getting many votes for MOTM on debut.
I'm happy to blame it all on the ginger TBH
Is it just me or has Christie's passing from the ruck and in general got way slower? Really noticed way more snap when TJP came on.
To be fair, that's a common, age old thing - reserve halfback comes on and immediately looks better.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
That would be a pretty ridiculous scenario IMO, moving the 12 to 15 and the 15 to 12, within the match.
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
That would be a pretty ridiculous scenario IMO, moving the 12 to 15 and the 15 to 12, within the match.
Unless your 15 is the best 12 in the team.....
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
That would be a pretty ridiculous scenario IMO, moving the 12 to 15 and the 15 to 12, within the match.
Unless your 15 is the best 12 in the team.....
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
That would be a pretty ridiculous scenario IMO, moving the 12 to 15 and the 15 to 12, within the match.
Unless your 15 is the best 12 in the team.....which then goes back to that old chestnut, why he was starting at 15, while a transplanted 15 was playing at 12. Talk about musical chairs!
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
That final part would make sense if they were looking to blood a backup 12. You can hardly claim that Havili hasn't had plenty of tests there
Two different arguments there. The first is whether you play JB in every Test and hope he doesn't get broken - which is a big risk based on the death-wish that playing in an AB midfield seems to be - and the second is whether DH is a viable backup at 12.
If anything Havili should have played at 15 to see what he actually offers to the squad now that JB apparently has a lock on 12.
Maybe they wanted an experienced 15 to start and didn't think DH was that player? I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
That final part would make sense if they were looking to blood a backup 12. You can hardly claim that Havili hasn't had plenty of tests there
Two different arguments there. The first is whether you play JB in every Test and hope he doesn't get broken - which is a big risk based on the death-wish that playing in an AB midfield seems to be - and the second is whether DH is a viable backup at 12.
If anything Havili should have played at 15 to see what he actually offers to the squad now that JB apparently has a lock on 12.
Maybe they wanted an experienced 15 to start and didn't think DH was that player? I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
I'm confused about the first part. I could understand this argument if Jordie was rested. But he wasn't so the risk is still there and he's in the wrong position.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I also take @Chris-B's point about them trying to balance the side, but I think that's a big failure of the coaches for badly underplaying Perofeta after he was the form 10/15 of Super rugby. He should have been starting at the back against Scotland with Havili on the bench.
I just don't get the use of Perofeta. Has he crapped in someone's bed or something?
I think it is ridiculous. Either you give him a decent crack or you don't. If we kick him to the curb now he can't even front for a lower tier nation, after playing less than 10 minutes total test football to date
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I also take @Chris-B's point about them trying to balance the side, but I think that's a big failure of the coaches for badly underplaying Perofeta after he was the form 10/15 of Super rugby. He should have been starting at the back against Scotland with Havili on the bench.
I just don't get the use of Perofeta. Has he crapped in someone's bed or something?
I think it is ridiculous. Either you give him a decent crack or you don't. If we kick him to the curb now he can't even front for a lower tier nation, after playing less than 10 minutes total test football to date
Fosters squad management has been awful.
Sowakula capped and scrapped.
Fakatava barely used pre injury.
Vaii barely used.
Perofeta getting 60 seconds TWICE.
Luke Jacobsen, Ennor and Weber doing the Hokey Cokey in and out of squads.
The mismanagement of Samisoni during Irish series.
Beaudy flitting between 10 and 15.
Jordie flitting between 12 and 15.
Scott Barrett flitting between 5 and 6.
Will Jordan on bench for second Irish test.
The selection of Cane as captain when he was previously dropped from the 2019 semi final starting team , a selection process Foster was involved with at the time.
Finally finding the correct props but only through his favourites being suspended or injured.It has been an absolute shambles and im sure I have forgotten more instances of his stupidity.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
That would be a pretty ridiculous scenario IMO, moving the 12 to 15 and the 15 to 12, within the match.
Unless your 15 is the best 12 in the team.....
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
That would be a pretty ridiculous scenario IMO, moving the 12 to 15 and the 15 to 12, within the match.
Unless your 15 is the best 12 in the team.....
No unless.
https://y.yarn.co/d36e94bc-4560-4f80-b7aa-027c4f092a63_text.gif
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I also take @Chris-B's point about them trying to balance the side, but I think that's a big failure of the coaches for badly underplaying Perofeta after he was the form 10/15 of Super rugby. He should have been starting at the back against Scotland with Havili on the bench.
I just don't get the use of Perofeta. Has he crapped in someone's bed or something?
I think it is ridiculous. Either you give him a decent crack or you don't. If we kick him to the curb now he can't even front for a lower tier nation, after playing less than 10 minutes total test football to date
Fosters squad management has been awful.
Sowakula capped and scrapped.
Fakatava barely used pre injury.
Vaii barely used.
Perofeta getting 60 seconds TWICE.
Luke Jacobsen, Ennor and Weber doing the Hokey Cokey in and out of squads.
The mismanagement of Samisoni during Irish series.
Beaudy flitting between 10 and 15.
Jordie flitting between 12 and 15.
Scott Barrett flitting between 5 and 6.
Will Jordan on bench for second Irish test.
The selection of Cane as captain when he was previously dropped from the 2019 semi final starting team , a selection process Foster was involved with at the time.
Finally finding the correct props but only through his favourites being suspended or injured.It has been an absolute shambles and im sure I have forgotten more instances of his stupidity.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
That final part would make sense if they were looking to blood a backup 12. You can hardly claim that Havili hasn't had plenty of tests there
Two different arguments there. The first is whether you play JB in every Test and hope he doesn't get broken - which is a big risk based on the death-wish that playing in an AB midfield seems to be - and the second is whether DH is a viable backup at 12.
If anything Havili should have played at 15 to see what he actually offers to the squad now that JB apparently has a lock on 12.
Maybe they wanted an experienced 15 to start and didn't think DH was that player? I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
I'm confused about the first part. I could understand this argument if Jordie was rested. But he wasn't so the risk is still there and he's in the wrong position.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
That final part would make sense if they were looking to blood a backup 12. You can hardly claim that Havili hasn't had plenty of tests there
Two different arguments there. The first is whether you play JB in every Test and hope he doesn't get broken - which is a big risk based on the death-wish that playing in an AB midfield seems to be - and the second is whether DH is a viable backup at 12.
If anything Havili should have played at 15 to see what he actually offers to the squad now that JB apparently has a lock on 12.
Maybe they wanted an experienced 15 to start and didn't think DH was that player? I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
I'm confused about the first part. I could understand this argument if Jordie was rested. But he wasn't so the risk is still there and he's in the wrong position.
The point is about the need to balance giving Jordie game time at 12 while developing other players if he gets injured or needs resting. That's bloody difficult with RWC2023 10 games away. No-one is saying he should be wrapped on cotton-wool and shouldn't have played on Sunday.
If WJ was available and the coaches had enough faith in Perofeta or DH at 15, I think Jordie would/should have started at 12.
Playing Jordie at 15 was both a safe option and it gave them the chance to give him time with ALB in midfield if we'd had the game under control.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
That would be a pretty ridiculous scenario IMO, moving the 12 to 15 and the 15 to 12, within the match.
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
That would be a pretty ridiculous scenario IMO, moving the 12 to 15 and the 15 to 12, within the match.
Why? It fits with Foster's cautious approach to positioning, gives Perofeta or DH game time at 15 and we get to see how Jordie goes with ALB.
If that was the plan, it went tits-up after 15 minutes....
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@Steve Where's Razor
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Steve Where's Razor
Over here ----> The Foster thread
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
Not sure what your point is.
I get it - it doesn't paint the picture of what to do if Jordie is injured, by playing him in a different position. It also potentially opens up that very risk of Jordie getting injured.
Maybe DH would have been the best player on the planet with Perofeta at 10 and Beauden at fullback?
That's what I was thinking (well, not the "best player" bit, but the rest, yes).
First of all, I don't think DH was as bad as people are posting here. Super exaggeration Fern-style. Defensively, he was very good (11 tackles made). That intercept pas was bad, but I think that he wasn't as effective on attack as a 12 should be because he was playing outside a super slow-mo Christie and an inadequate 10. DH played his best games outside RM.
DH can play the role that Jordie played during the 2019 RWC: the guy who can play almost anywhere in the backline in the games against the minnows in our pool & Italy, and injury back-up for the other games).
Yeah it's an interesting one though eh - Christie supporters could argue that he wasn't able to perform because he was inside an awful 10. Beauden supporters, well he was inside an awful 12 and outside an awful 9. ALB was outside an awful 9-10-12. I've already seen Clarke excused because he was outside a horrible 9-10-12-13....but that gets put to bed when you see the other wing getting many votes for MOTM on debut.
I'm happy to blame it all on the ginger TBH
Is it just me or has Christie's passing from the ruck and in general got way slower? Really noticed way more snap when TJP came on.
To be fair, that's a common, age old thing - reserve halfback comes on and immediately looks better.
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
Not sure what your point is.
I get it - it doesn't paint the picture of what to do if Jordie is injured, by playing him in a different position. It also potentially opens up that very risk of Jordie getting injured.
Maybe DH would have been the best player on the planet with Perofeta at 10 and Beauden at fullback?
That's what I was thinking (well, not the "best player" bit, but the rest, yes).
First of all, I don't think DH was as bad as people are posting here. Super exaggeration Fern-style. Defensively, he was very good (11 tackles made). That intercept pas was bad, but I think that he wasn't as effective on attack as a 12 should be because he was playing outside a super slow-mo Christie and an inadequate 10. DH played his best games outside RM.
DH can play the role that Jordie played during the 2019 RWC: the guy who can play almost anywhere in the backline in the games against the minnows in our pool & Italy, and injury back-up for the other games).
Yeah it's an interesting one though eh - Christie supporters could argue that he wasn't able to perform because he was inside an awful 10. Beauden supporters, well he was inside an awful 12 and outside an awful 9. ALB was outside an awful 9-10-12. I've already seen Clarke excused because he was outside a horrible 9-10-12-13....but that gets put to bed when you see the other wing getting many votes for MOTM on debut.
I'm happy to blame it all on the ginger TBH
Is it just me or has Christie's passing from the ruck and in general got way slower? Really noticed way more snap when TJP came on.
To be fair, that's a common, age old thing - reserve halfback comes on and makes immediately looks better.
It's not that. Christie seems to have gotten slower to me and I noticed it from the off.
Maybe my imagination - I'll dig out some other games to see how he went
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I fully expected DH or Perofeta to move to 15 and Jordie to 12.
That would be a pretty ridiculous scenario IMO, moving the 12 to 15 and the 15 to 12, within the match.
Why? It fits with Foster's cautious approach to positioning, gives Perofeta or DH game time at 15 and we get to see how Jordie goes with ALB.
If that was the plan, it went tits-up after 15 minutes....
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Why? It fits with Foster's cautious approach to positioning, gives Perofeta or DH game time at 15 and we get to see how Jordie goes with ALB.
Oh it wouldn't be ridiculous for Foz. But I have no recollection of ever seeing that in a 1st class game and I don't think it's my memory at fault. It's because it would be a completely bizarre selection process unless you're playing Nicaragua.
I don't see how having Barrett start at 15, Havili start at 12 and for them to swap would give Perofeta game time though.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Why? It fits with Foster's cautious approach to positioning, gives Perofeta or DH game time at 15 and we get to see how Jordie goes with ALB.
Oh it wouldn't be ridiculous for Foz. But I have no recollection of ever seeing that in a 1st class game and I don't think it's my memory at fault. It's because it would be a completely bizarre selection process unless you're playing Nicaragua.
I don't see how having Barrett start at 15, Havili start at 12 and for them to swap would give Perofeta game time though.
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I don't see how having Barrett start at 15, Havili start at 12 and for them to swap would give Perofeta game time though.
Two minutes in heaven is better than one minute in heaven.
https://www.planetrugby.com/news/all-blacks-ian-foster-to-give-stephen-perofeta-more-of-an-opportunity-in-the-end-of-year-tour
"All Blacks: Ian Foster to give Stephen Perofeta more of an opportunity in the end-of-year tour"
So he's starting against England then?! -
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I don't see how having Barrett start at 15, Havili start at 12 and for them to swap would give Perofeta game time though.
Two minutes in heaven is better than one minute in heaven.
https://www.planetrugby.com/news/all-blacks-ian-foster-to-give-stephen-perofeta-more-of-an-opportunity-in-the-end-of-year-tour
"All Blacks: Ian Foster to give Stephen Perofeta more of an opportunity in the end-of-year tour"
So he's starting against England then?! -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Why? It fits with Foster's cautious approach to positioning, gives Perofeta or DH game time at 15 and we get to see how Jordie goes with ALB.
Oh it wouldn't be ridiculous for Foz. But I have no recollection of ever seeing that in a 1st class game and I don't think it's my memory at fault. It's because it would be a completely bizarre selection process unless you're playing Nicaragua.
I don't see how having Barrett start at 15, Havili start at 12 and for them to swap would give Perofeta game time though.
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
It's because it would be a completely bizarre selection process unless you're playing Nicaragua.
Pretty sure it happened with Mils and Cullen.
I don't see how having Barrett start at 15, Havili start at 12 and for them to swap would give Perofeta game time thoug
Havili subbed. Perofeta to 15
