Foster, Robertson etc
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@canefan The Black Fern's Cocksedge did the box kick beautifully in the WWC though. She put it long into the opposition's territory when there weren't any defenders back there and it always led to territorial pressure. They have their place in a smart game plan I think.
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan The Black Fern's Cocksedge did the box kick beautifully in the WWC though. She put it long into the opposition's territory when there weren't any defenders back there and it always led to territorial pressure. They have their place in a smart game plan I think.
I don't think our AB (male) kickers are fantastic at the box kick; or they don't kick when there are dedicated and alert chasers.
Ireland has a 35.5% chance of scoring points when they enter their opponents 22, and they are rather good at generating those platforms because Ireland starts on average 8 attacks in their opponent 22. In contrast, New Zealand converts only 21.4% of their 7.6 attack starts in that zone. England converts at 22.4% of their 7.83 starts to points, while the Wallabies convert 34.8% of their 7 opportunities. -
The AB tactics seem absolutely stupid at times. The worst is taking the box kick inside the ABs 22 for it to land somewhere just outside the 22 and hoping we will get the ball back from this Hail Mary attempt. More times than not, the ball is given to the opposition when the defenses are in disarray and in prime attacking territory. The Prof. Smith said he really dislikes this tactic as it is such a low-percentage play (kick and hope) and the halfback projects what he is going to do to the opposition (esp. A.Smith and his kicking stance). Given our players look like they aren't coached to recover the ball as a team unlike Ireland and SA, it seems even more stupid. The "TJP box kick incident" versus England is the perfect example of this shit tactic.
The more I listen to people like Prof. Smith, the more I think the ABs are not in good hands with Foster. Accordingly, RM looks so much better running the cutter with the Crusaders with their more sensible approach, and I have a little sympathy for the defense coach (just a smidgeon though) and the wings trying to defend that seem to be on a hiding to nothing.@Old-Samurai-Jack most players telegraph a box kick in the way they set up, add in Smith doesn't run much (did a bit more on EOYT) means it is so easy to defend if he isn't setting a box, he is passing it, if 2 or 3 forwards are standing 3m away, you set on them, then pass back to the pod standing on the other side as well...so predictable.
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We're whinging about something everyone does
Test rugby is super formulaic at the moment
ALL teams are pretty predictable. Most do the same things in the same areas
It's just if you are good at it or not.Our box kick exits are rubbish. Other teams are not.
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations. It works because they do it well. They don't generally have a lot of points in them though.
Few teams turn up with something you haven't seen before.
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We're whinging about something everyone does
Test rugby is super formulaic at the moment
ALL teams are pretty predictable. Most do the same things in the same areas
It's just if you are good at it or not.Our box kick exits are rubbish. Other teams are not.
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations. It works because they do it well. They don't generally have a lot of points in them though.
Few teams turn up with something you haven't seen before.
@mariner4life Exactly! We are following other teams and we are shittier than them at those tactics! The ABs need to start innovating again.
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We're whinging about something everyone does
Test rugby is super formulaic at the moment
ALL teams are pretty predictable. Most do the same things in the same areas
It's just if you are good at it or not.Our box kick exits are rubbish. Other teams are not.
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations. It works because they do it well. They don't generally have a lot of points in them though.
Few teams turn up with something you haven't seen before.
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
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@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
Seriously?
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@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
- Coulda died.
- Shoulda died.
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The AB tactics seem absolutely stupid at times. The worst is taking the box kick inside the ABs 22 for it to land somewhere just outside the 22 and hoping we will get the ball back from this Hail Mary attempt. More times than not, the ball is given to the opposition when the defenses are in disarray and in prime attacking territory. The Prof. Smith said he really dislikes this tactic as it is such a low-percentage play (kick and hope) and the halfback projects what he is going to do to the opposition (esp. A.Smith and his kicking stance). Given our players look like they aren't coached to recover the ball as a team unlike Ireland and SA, it seems even more stupid. The "TJP box kick incident" versus England is the perfect example of this shit tactic.
The more I listen to people like Prof. Smith, the more I think the ABs are not in good hands with Foster. Accordingly, RM looks so much better running the cutter with the Crusaders with their more sensible approach, and I have a little sympathy for the defense coach (just a smidgeon though) and the wings trying to defend that seem to be on a hiding to nothing.@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster, Robertson etc:
esp. A.Smith and his kicking stance
I mean I'm with you for the rest of it, but what the fuck? Oh yeah because every other halfback, we're absolutely clueless they're going to throw up a box until it's halfway down the tramlines.
That's not a thing.
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@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
Seriously?
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
Seriously?
I was asking you because, unlike me, you seem to know something about rugby.
I'm meaning their attack patterns.
Was interested in what they actually are. -
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
Seriously?
I was asking you because, unlike me, you seem to know something about rugby.
I'm meaning their attack patterns.
Was interested in what they actually are.@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
Seriously?
I was asking you because, unlike me, you seem to know something about rugby.
I'm meaning their attack patterns.
Was interested in what they actually are.Ok it's obviously way more complicated than this but
Check out videos from their tour to NZ. They compress their attack in to like half the field. And they either hit forwards running unders angles if the defence stays strung out across the field, or they use their backs running loops to outflank you if you compress.
This way they exploit where you are weakest. It works because they have great forward runners and their timing is excellent. If they had real pace at 13 they would carve teams. R Ioane at 13 for Ireland would be fucking lethal with the space they create.
The Maori actually stopped it a few times by spot tackling the looping player. But the ABs struggled with that.
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@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
Seriously?
I was asking you because, unlike me, you seem to know something about rugby.
I'm meaning their attack patterns.
Was interested in what they actually are.Ok it's obviously way more complicated than this but
Check out videos from their tour to NZ. They compress their attack in to like half the field. And they either hit forwards running unders angles if the defence stays strung out across the field, or they use their backs running loops to outflank you if you compress.
This way they exploit where you are weakest. It works because they have great forward runners and their timing is excellent. If they had real pace at 13 they would carve teams. R Ioane at 13 for Ireland would be fucking lethal with the space they create.
The Maori actually stopped it a few times by spot tackling the looping player. But the ABs struggled with that.
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
Seriously?
I was asking you because, unlike me, you seem to know something about rugby.
I'm meaning their attack patterns.
Was interested in what they actually are.Ok it's obviously way more complicated than this but
Check out videos from their tour to NZ. They compress their attack in to like half the field. And they either hit forwards running unders angles if the defence stays strung out across the field, or they use their backs running loops to outflank you if you compress.
This way they exploit where you are weakest. It works because they have great forward runners and their timing is excellent. If they had real pace at 13 they would carve teams. R Ioane at 13 for Ireland would be fucking lethal with the space they create.
The Maori actually stopped it a few times by spot tackling the looping player. But the ABs struggled with that.
The Maori played with much more of a rush, as they appeared to have a defense coach and system appropriate to the 21st century, and unsurprisingly caused that pattern a few more problems.
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@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
Seriously?
I was asking you because, unlike me, you seem to know something about rugby.
I'm meaning their attack patterns.
Was interested in what they actually are.Ok it's obviously way more complicated than this but
Check out videos from their tour to NZ. They compress their attack in to like half the field. And they either hit forwards running unders angles if the defence stays strung out across the field, or they use their backs running loops to outflank you if you compress.
This way they exploit where you are weakest. It works because they have great forward runners and their timing is excellent. If they had real pace at 13 they would carve teams. R Ioane at 13 for Ireland would be fucking lethal with the space they create.
The Maori actually stopped it a few times by spot tackling the looping player. But the ABs struggled with that.
The Maori played with much more of a rush, as they appeared to have a defense coach and system appropriate to the 21st century, and unsurprisingly caused that pattern a few more problems.
@gt12 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
Seriously?
I was asking you because, unlike me, you seem to know something about rugby.
I'm meaning their attack patterns.
Was interested in what they actually are.Ok it's obviously way more complicated than this but
Check out videos from their tour to NZ. They compress their attack in to like half the field. And they either hit forwards running unders angles if the defence stays strung out across the field, or they use their backs running loops to outflank you if you compress.
This way they exploit where you are weakest. It works because they have great forward runners and their timing is excellent. If they had real pace at 13 they would carve teams. R Ioane at 13 for Ireland would be fucking lethal with the space they create.
The Maori actually stopped it a few times by spot tackling the looping player. But the ABs struggled with that.
The Maori played with much more of a rush, as they appeared to have a defense coach and system appropriate to the 21st century, and unsurprisingly caused that pattern a few more problems.
Helped by the Irish tram that was put out not being as powerful up front or crisp in their passing.
But yes, our defensive pattern actually plays in to the Irish hands as we like to isolate our wingers and rely on the centre holding in then using pace to cover. Ireland exploit that very seam.
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@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
Seriously?
I was asking you because, unlike me, you seem to know something about rugby.
I'm meaning their attack patterns.
Was interested in what they actually are.Ok it's obviously way more complicated than this but
Check out videos from their tour to NZ. They compress their attack in to like half the field. And they either hit forwards running unders angles if the defence stays strung out across the field, or they use their backs running loops to outflank you if you compress.
This way they exploit where you are weakest. It works because they have great forward runners and their timing is excellent. If they had real pace at 13 they would carve teams. R Ioane at 13 for Ireland would be fucking lethal with the space they create.
The Maori actually stopped it a few times by spot tackling the looping player. But the ABs struggled with that.
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
Seriously?
I was asking you because, unlike me, you seem to know something about rugby.
I'm meaning their attack patterns.
Was interested in what they actually are.Ok it's obviously way more complicated than this but
Check out videos from their tour to NZ. They compress their attack in to like half the field. And they either hit forwards running unders angles if the defence stays strung out across the field, or they use their backs running loops to outflank you if you compress.
This way they exploit where you are weakest. It works because they have great forward runners and their timing is excellent. If they had real pace at 13 they would carve teams. R Ioane at 13 for Ireland would be fucking lethal with the space they create.
The Maori actually stopped it a few times by spot tackling the looping player. But the ABs struggled with that.
Yep it is a lot like the British league's side used to run their attacking patterns a few years ago.
Target the player looping or not letting the forward runners get to far over the advantage line while trying to slow down the phase ball nullifies it,But easier said than done if it is a well drilled team sending it your way. -
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
Seriously?
I was asking you because, unlike me, you seem to know something about rugby.
I'm meaning their attack patterns.
Was interested in what they actually are.Ok it's obviously way more complicated than this but
Check out videos from their tour to NZ. They compress their attack in to like half the field. And they either hit forwards running unders angles if the defence stays strung out across the field, or they use their backs running loops to outflank you if you compress.
This way they exploit where you are weakest. It works because they have great forward runners and their timing is excellent. If they had real pace at 13 they would carve teams. R Ioane at 13 for Ireland would be fucking lethal with the space they create.
The Maori actually stopped it a few times by spot tackling the looping player. But the ABs struggled with that.
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Ireland run the same attack religiously, it has like 2 variations.
What are those variations?
Seriously?
I was asking you because, unlike me, you seem to know something about rugby.
I'm meaning their attack patterns.
Was interested in what they actually are.Ok it's obviously way more complicated than this but
Check out videos from their tour to NZ. They compress their attack in to like half the field. And they either hit forwards running unders angles if the defence stays strung out across the field, or they use their backs running loops to outflank you if you compress.
This way they exploit where you are weakest. It works because they have great forward runners and their timing is excellent. If they had real pace at 13 they would carve teams. R Ioane at 13 for Ireland would be fucking lethal with the space they create.
The Maori actually stopped it a few times by spot tackling the looping player. But the ABs struggled with that.
Gee, hope the ABs actually have an actual plan to stop it come World Cup time.
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Last week we built a similar lead to what South Africa did today but folded like a cheap suit when down a man for the final 10 minutes. South Africa went down a man for the final 20 minutes but held onto their lead for a dominant win. Despite all the improvement that Ryan and Schmidt have brought the Foster factor still hangs over the team and we are still flaky as hell.
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Last week we built a similar lead to what South Africa did today but folded like a cheap suit when down a man for the final 10 minutes. South Africa went down a man for the final 20 minutes but held onto their lead for a dominant win. Despite all the improvement that Ryan and Schmidt have brought the Foster factor still hangs over the team and we are still flaky as hell.
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Last week we built a similar lead to what South Africa did today but folded like a cheap suit when down a man for the final 10 minutes. South Africa went down a man for the final 20 minutes but held onto their lead for a dominant win. Despite all the improvement that Ryan and Schmidt have brought the Foster factor still hangs over the team and we are still flaky as hell.
Im assuming they didn't resort to attacking from deep in their own half and low percentage cross field kicks?
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster, Robertson etc:
esp. A.Smith and his kicking stance
I mean I'm with you for the rest of it, but what the fuck? Oh yeah because every other halfback, we're absolutely clueless they're going to throw up a box until it's halfway down the tramlines.
That's not a thing.
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@Bones Back leg straight, foot pointed towards the sky, the ole box kick stance. There ain't no subtlety in it.
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bones Back leg straight, foot pointed towards the sky, the ole box kick stance. There ain't no subtlety in it.
Oh not disputing that, but I can't think how Smith is any different (unless of course you're hinting at the lack of running threat as TR mentioned).
If anything it's in a way less telegraphed as he doesn't fuck about setting a snake and rolling the ball back half a mile.
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Last week we built a similar lead to what South Africa did today but folded like a cheap suit when down a man for the final 10 minutes. South Africa went down a man for the final 20 minutes but held onto their lead for a dominant win. Despite all the improvement that Ryan and Schmidt have brought the Foster factor still hangs over the team and we are still flaky as hell.
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Last week we built a similar lead to what South Africa did today but folded like a cheap suit when down a man for the final 10 minutes. South Africa went down a man for the final 20 minutes but held onto their lead for a dominant win. Despite all the improvement that Ryan and Schmidt have brought the Foster factor still hangs over the team and we are still flaky as hell.
Sth Africa dealt with being a man down as well as the AB's did when BB was sin-binned at Ellis Park in the RC.
In the England game, we seem to have gone backwards in that aspect of play compared that Ellis Park win - particularly in the forwards where we were a bit shambolic in the last 10 minutes. Whitelock in particular looked fatigued and a little bit lost. The forwards in the last 10 minutes reminded me a bit of the Crusaders blowing that 5m scrum and gifting a win to the Blues in CH earlier this year.
Foster & his forwards coach need to sort that aspect out pronto and get back into the same groove as we had at Ellis Park.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Last week we built a similar lead to what South Africa did today but folded like a cheap suit when down a man for the final 10 minutes. South Africa went down a man for the final 20 minutes but held onto their lead for a dominant win. Despite all the improvement that Ryan and Schmidt have brought the Foster factor still hangs over the team and we are still flaky as hell.
Sth Africa dealt with being a man down as well as the AB's did when BB was sin-binned at Ellis Park in the RC.
In the England game, we seem to have gone backwards in that aspect of play compared that Ellis Park win - particularly in the forwards where we were a bit shambolic in the last 10 minutes. Whitelock in particular looked fatigued and a little bit lost. The forwards in the last 10 minutes reminded me a bit of the Crusaders blowing that 5m scrum and gifting a win to the Blues in CH earlier this year.
Foster & his forwards coach need to sort that aspect out pronto and get back into the same groove as we had at Ellis Park.
@Victor-Meldrew yep mate, I perhaps thought at end of test maybe why Sam W (much as I a fan) would be a risky captain for WC, I thought he looked fairly shot at end of test. I also thought it showed a bit how there seems to be a lack of leadership in backline without BB there?
