Exodus
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so, to sum up
Chris hates teh NZRU because he thinks they are holding back the people of Christchurch
Dan is still the only real rugby man on hereAnd Beauden Barrett is shit now, will be a hundred times worse in 18 months, and is absolutely not worth blowing up the entire structure of NZ rugby for.
good chat.
oh wait, also the NZRU are strangely complicit in just allowing the next level of players fuck off overseas for half the year and play in America. No one cares because they aren't ABs, but it has severe implications for our overall structure by eroding club rugby.
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so, to sum up
Chris hates teh NZRU because he thinks they are holding back the people of Christchurch
Dan is still the only real rugby man on hereAnd Beauden Barrett is shit now, will be a hundred times worse in 18 months, and is absolutely not worth blowing up the entire structure of NZ rugby for.
good chat.
oh wait, also the NZRU are strangely complicit in just allowing the next level of players fuck off overseas for half the year and play in America. No one cares because they aren't ABs, but it has severe implications for our overall structure by eroding club rugby.
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
so, to sum up
Chris hates teh NZRU because he thinks they are holding back the people of Christchurch
Dan is still the only real rugby man on hereAnd Beauden Barrett is shit now, will be a hundred times worse in 18 months, and is absolutely not worth blowing up the entire structure of NZ rugby for.
good chat.
oh wait, also the NZRU are strangely **complicit in **just allowing the next level of players fuck off overseas for half the year and play in America. No one cares because they aren't ABs, but it has severe implications for our overall structure by eroding club rugby.
Exactly except for this bit
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so, to sum up
Chris hates teh NZRU because he thinks they are holding back the people of Christchurch
Dan is still the only real rugby man on hereAnd Beauden Barrett is shit now, will be a hundred times worse in 18 months, and is absolutely not worth blowing up the entire structure of NZ rugby for.
good chat.
oh wait, also the NZRU are strangely complicit in just allowing the next level of players fuck off overseas for half the year and play in America. No one cares because they aren't ABs, but it has severe implications for our overall structure by eroding club rugby.
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
oh wait, also the NZRU are strangely complicit in just allowing the next level of players fuck off overseas for half the year and play in America. No one cares because they aren't ABs, but it has severe implications for our overall structure by eroding club rugby.
Wait, what? Who is claiming that NZR are complicit in allowing those players going overseas? That's just silly.
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@mariner4life said in Exodus:
oh wait, also the NZRU are strangely complicit in just allowing the next level of players fuck off overseas for half the year and play in America. No one cares because they aren't ABs, but it has severe implications for our overall structure by eroding club rugby.
Wait, what? Who is claiming that NZR are complicit in allowing those players going overseas? That's just silly.
@Stargazer said in Exodus:
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
oh wait, also the NZRU are strangely complicit in just allowing the next level of players fuck off overseas for half the year and play in America. No one cares because they aren't ABs, but it has severe implications for our overall structure by eroding club rugby.
Wait, what? Who is claiming that NZR are complicit in allowing those players going overseas? That's just silly.
i am. i am claiming it.
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@Stargazer said in Exodus:
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
oh wait, also the NZRU are strangely complicit in just allowing the next level of players fuck off overseas for half the year and play in America. No one cares because they aren't ABs, but it has severe implications for our overall structure by eroding club rugby.
Wait, what? Who is claiming that NZR are complicit in allowing those players going overseas? That's just silly.
i am. i am claiming it.
How are they complicit? The players below SR level don't have contracts with NZR and NZR doesn't have any power to stop them from going overseas to earn a living by playing rugby. We're lucky that players playing in the MLR will still be available to their provinces for the NPC.
Or do you think NZR should offer the "next level of players" some sort of contract and wages (similar to those in those overseas' competitions) to just play club rugby and wait for a SR player to get injured?
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Ok, I've missed most of the discussion and can't be bothered reading back so ignore me if I'm going over already covered ground, but aren't these US contracts a net positive for NZ rugby as it allows players to remain in NZ and play the NPC. Without the US top up money they will likely be lost to the country as they will seek full overseas contracts.
Either way club rugby is going to lose them, but at least this way they play NPC.
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Ok, I've missed most of the discussion and can't be bothered reading back so ignore me if I'm going over already covered ground, but aren't these US contracts a net positive for NZ rugby as it allows players to remain in NZ and play the NPC. Without the US top up money they will likely be lost to the country as they will seek full overseas contracts.
Either way club rugby is going to lose them, but at least this way they play NPC.
@Nepia MRL clashes with super rugby, so results in a disjointed "pyramid", players playing NPC...but not super so dont get that next stepping stone
feel its going to result in it being even hard for players to get dropped from the AB's as there will be even less confidence in those coming through
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i know you weird Hawkes Bay fluffybunnies only care about the NPC, but that doesn't sound like a great fucking solution to me.
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.
There is a world of difference between a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's busy playing Super rugby, and a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's playing in America.
Oh, yay for the players, they can make a "living" playing code. We're on the slippery slope cricket is already sliding down with the various T20 comps around the world.
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How are they complicit? The players below SR level don't have contracts with NZR and NZR doesn't have any power to stop them from going overseas to earn a living by playing rugby. We're lucky that players playing in the MLR will still be available to their provinces for the NPC.
Or do you think NZR should offer the "next level of players" some sort of contract and wages (similar to those in those overseas' competitions) to just play club rugby and wait for a SR player to get injured?
@Stargazer said in Exodus:
How are they complicit? The players below SR level don't have contracts with NZR and NZR doesn't have any power to stop them from going overseas to earn a living by playing rugby. We're lucky that players playing in the MLR will still be available to their provinces for the NPC.
Or do you think NZR should offer the "next level of players" some sort of contract and wages (similar to those in those overseas' competitions) to just play club rugby and wait for a SR player to get injured?
Gee Starg, thats an awful sensible post for this thread!!
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@Nepia MRL clashes with super rugby, so results in a disjointed "pyramid", players playing NPC...but not super so dont get that next stepping stone
feel its going to result in it being even hard for players to get dropped from the AB's as there will be even less confidence in those coming through
@Kiwiwomble said in Exodus:
@Nepia MRL clashes with super rugby, so results in a disjointed "pyramid", players playing NPC...but not super so dont get that next stepping stone
feel its going to result in it being even hard for players to get dropped from the AB's as there will be even less confidence in those coming through
But aren't most of the players going to MLR those that missed out on Super contracts anyway so they're not going to get that stepping stone? Better to have them playing, for a wee bit of cash, and then come back for NPC and another shot at a super contract.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Exodus:
@Nepia MRL clashes with super rugby, so results in a disjointed "pyramid", players playing NPC...but not super so dont get that next stepping stone
feel its going to result in it being even hard for players to get dropped from the AB's as there will be even less confidence in those coming through
But aren't most of the players going to MLR those that missed out on Super contracts anyway so they're not going to get that stepping stone? Better to have them playing, for a wee bit of cash, and then come back for NPC and another shot at a super contract.
@Nepia i feel it use to be those guy heading to retirement but is slowly moving to the "fringe" players, those that pushed player to the next level
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i know you weird Hawkes Bay fluffybunnies only care about the NPC, but that doesn't sound like a great fucking solution to me.
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.
There is a world of difference between a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's busy playing Super rugby, and a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's playing in America.
Oh, yay for the players, they can make a "living" playing code. We're on the slippery slope cricket is already sliding down with the various T20 comps around the world.
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
i know you weird Hawkes Bay fluffybunnies only care about the NPC, but that doesn't sound like a great fucking solution to me.
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.
There is a world of difference between a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's busy playing Super rugby, and a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's playing in America.
Oh, yay for the players, they can make a "living" playing code. We're on the slippery slope cricket is already sliding down with the various T20 comps around the world.
To be honest I a huge NPC fan(always have been) big time (Naki supporter), but you correct in that it has changed, I know generally super players are tied up during club season, but generally (well I know here in the Naki, players returning from Japan play a bit of club rugby to be eligible for the NPC. Certainly know Jesse Parata has played for Southern club (his old club) when returning, same as Micheal Bent the Irish prop, who played for Southern again before he played for the Naki. I not sure about other provinces.
And really provinces have used 'loan' players etc since the late 80s.
But the idea of players making a living playing the game started in 96 (well officially, but was before that in reality), and no way that gate can get shut again. As you say on the slippery slope where players go where they get paid the best, as in all pro sports.
Be nice if people just played for the love like the proper grassroots rugby, but we have missed that bus mate! -
i know you weird Hawkes Bay fluffybunnies only care about the NPC, but that doesn't sound like a great fucking solution to me.
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.
There is a world of difference between a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's busy playing Super rugby, and a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's playing in America.
Oh, yay for the players, they can make a "living" playing code. We're on the slippery slope cricket is already sliding down with the various T20 comps around the world.
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
i know you weird Hawkes Bay fluffybunnies only care about the NPC, but that doesn't sound like a great fucking solution to me.
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.
There is a world of difference between a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's busy playing Super rugby, and a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's playing in America.
Oh, yay for the players, they can make a "living" playing code. We're on the slippery slope cricket is already sliding down with the various T20 comps around the world.
What's your solution? How do we retain those players for club rugby? You may scoff at them wanting to be paid to play the game but that's the nature of the modern rugby world. McClutchie had to get a short term Japanese contract a few years back because despite being one of the better 10s in the NPC, he couldn't even get a third 10 spot in a NZ super team (while a guy Garden-Bachop has a multi year super career). Sadly, club rugby isn't ever going to get back to the status it used to have.
Also, the reason we love the NPC/Magpies so much these days as they're probably been the most homegrown they've been since the 1980s (and lets take off the rose tinted glasses, there was lots of moving between provinces pre professionalism). We actually have a clear pathway for players from school and club rugby (bar the idiot coaches' few mates from Wellington he parachuted in). If BoP is still operating on a mostly invitational basis then that's on them.
@Kiwiwomble said in Exodus:
@Nepia i feel it use to be those guy heading to retirement but is slowly moving to the "fringe" players, those that pushed player to the next level
What are they supposed to do otherwise? What should Caleb Makene, for example, do when he misses out on a Super contract? His options are sign a full overseas contract, sign with MLR/NPC, or find some work and play club rugby. The romantic third version is pretty unrealistic.
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@mariner4life said in Exodus:
i know you weird Hawkes Bay fluffybunnies only care about the NPC, but that doesn't sound like a great fucking solution to me.
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.
There is a world of difference between a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's busy playing Super rugby, and a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's playing in America.
Oh, yay for the players, they can make a "living" playing code. We're on the slippery slope cricket is already sliding down with the various T20 comps around the world.
What's your solution? How do we retain those players for club rugby? You may scoff at them wanting to be paid to play the game but that's the nature of the modern rugby world. McClutchie had to get a short term Japanese contract a few years back because despite being one of the better 10s in the NPC, he couldn't even get a third 10 spot in a NZ super team (while a guy Garden-Bachop has a multi year super career). Sadly, club rugby isn't ever going to get back to the status it used to have.
Also, the reason we love the NPC/Magpies so much these days as they're probably been the most homegrown they've been since the 1980s (and lets take off the rose tinted glasses, there was lots of moving between provinces pre professionalism). We actually have a clear pathway for players from school and club rugby (bar the idiot coaches' few mates from Wellington he parachuted in). If BoP is still operating on a mostly invitational basis then that's on them.
@Kiwiwomble said in Exodus:
@Nepia i feel it use to be those guy heading to retirement but is slowly moving to the "fringe" players, those that pushed player to the next level
What are they supposed to do otherwise? What should Caleb Makene, for example, do when he misses out on a Super contract? His options are sign a full overseas contract, sign with MLR/NPC, or find some work and play club rugby. The romantic third version is pretty unrealistic.
@Nepia im not saying they should have done anything else personally, they need to do what they need to do....that doesn;t mean its also not bad for NZR in general
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i know you weird Hawkes Bay fluffybunnies only care about the NPC, but that doesn't sound like a great fucking solution to me.
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.
There is a world of difference between a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's busy playing Super rugby, and a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's playing in America.
Oh, yay for the players, they can make a "living" playing code. We're on the slippery slope cricket is already sliding down with the various T20 comps around the world.
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
i know you weird Hawkes Bay fluffybunnies only care about the NPC, but that doesn't sound like a great fucking solution to me.
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The last few years, the number of players returning to their home province has actually increased, but that wasn't really what this discussion is about.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.
Some of us still love the NPC, yes.
There is a world of difference between a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's busy playing Super rugby, and a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's playing in America.
No one disputed that.
Oh, yay for the players, they can make a "living" playing code. We're on the slippery slope cricket is already sliding down with the various T20 comps around the world.
You still haven't addressed my question as to how NZR is "complicit" in these players going overseas and what power they have to stop that.
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i know you weird Hawkes Bay fluffybunnies only care about the NPC, but that doesn't sound like a great fucking solution to me.
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.
There is a world of difference between a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's busy playing Super rugby, and a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's playing in America.
Oh, yay for the players, they can make a "living" playing code. We're on the slippery slope cricket is already sliding down with the various T20 comps around the world.
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
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@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
i subscribe to your newsletter
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@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
i think the last couple of NPC seasons have been better than the decade before....but definitely agree with the last bit, i feel we'll all look back on this time period and a missed opportunity
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@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
Yeah, we've had that discussion about reform of the NPC and SR in other threads before and there was significant disagreement about that on the Fern. Not going to regurgitate that in this thread, but the NPC is still a great comp to watch for many rugby fans (despite there being room for improvement) and still a pathway to SR for many players.
Anyway, it seems some are happy to blame NZR for the exodus of the "next level of players", despite NZR not having any ability to stop players from leaving.
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@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
Yeah, we've had that discussion about reform of the NPC and SR in other threads before and there was significant disagreement about that on the Fern. Not going to regurgitate that in this thread, but the NPC is still a great comp to watch for many rugby fans (despite there being room for improvement) and still a pathway to SR for many players.
Anyway, it seems some are happy to blame NZR for the exodus of the "next level of players", despite NZR not having any ability to stop players from leaving.
@Stargazer i feel thats a little simplistic, i think NZR's determination to keep super rugby alive in largely the same form results in the small/short intense competition.
Because of this the franchises dont have the space to have full development of all their players, so squads are often made up of youth or experience with little room for middle ground...its just not an attractive pathway for a lot of players
a longer consolidated competition allowing teams to experiment and blood players without 2-3 loses on the trot ruining their season would be much more attractive to those that really want to make sugby their career
those choices are in NZ's control or at very least influence
