Exodus
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I think the romantic idea of an enlarged NPC comp and no super is just that, a romantic idea.
I’m suggesting an enlarged pro competition and giving up on the romantic attachment to a semi pro NPC
Old people clinging to the past is slowly killing the game.
Yep mate I understand what you saying and why, not knocking it, was just suggesting why I didn't think it would work, ie killing club rugby more and losing more 2nd tier players, rather than 3rd tier level we losing a lot of now. Wages would not be as high, 9 teams to pay, and anyone not in ABs, not having NPC to boost earnings?
And out of interest the romantic reference is almost to me, as I would love a NPC with ABs in it in my dreams!It would create a partition between the pro and amateur sport. Club rugby would be firmly on the amateur side
It would create more second tier jobs on the pro side. Which in theory would be funded what by providing a more attractive product for pay tv and sponsors.
SR sides are already contracting players out of school and they don't go through the club -> province -> super pathway anymore. It's about accepting that reality and creating a good solid pro competition
No one would design the random season structure we have now from scratch.
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No more arrogant than the post you just liked. Stop policing opinions just because they don't match your bias
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It would create a partition between the pro and amateur sport. Club rugby would be firmly on the amateur side
It would create more second tier jobs on the pro side. Which in theory would be funded what by providing a more attractive product for pay tv and sponsors.
SR sides are already contracting players out of school and they don't go through the club -> province -> super pathway anymore. It's about accepting that reality and creating a good solid pro competition
No one would design the random season structure we have now from scratch.
@Duluth ell I know super do contract players straight out of school, generally to academies and are there really any that miss the NPC nowadays?
I have wondered about restructuring the season, and if you had npc before ABs to get players in right condition , you will kill club rugby in provinces the real grassroots rugby in NZ, as the club game would be played later.
I honestly think we stuck with what we got as it is basically what works for NZ rugby structure.
NZ rughy is structured with club rugby first for a reason. -
Old people clinging to the past is slowly killing the game.
Maybe, but is more those in power and at NZR who are clinging to it, hoping somehow something will change and it will return to some glory days - they tried to shaft Northland & Ta$man a dozen or so years back off doctored criteria, have had numerous other opportunities to make a proper change, instead just put bandaids over it.
I'm obviously a big fan of NPC, and like comments above, think there has been an improvement in the past few seaosns, whether this is due to Covid or other factors remains to be seen.
But I am also realistic that this model isnt sustainable, but I, like many dont have an answer that will be palpable to stakeholders around NZ, although I think the current model is only a tweak or 2 away from being as good as we will get as NPC slowly loses its relevance.
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Old people clinging to the past is slowly killing the game.
Maybe, but is more those in power and at NZR who are clinging to it, hoping somehow something will change and it will return to some glory days - they tried to shaft Northland & Ta$man a dozen or so years back off doctored criteria, have had numerous other opportunities to make a proper change, instead just put bandaids over it.
I'm obviously a big fan of NPC, and like comments above, think there has been an improvement in the past few seaosns, whether this is due to Covid or other factors remains to be seen.
But I am also realistic that this model isnt sustainable, but I, like many dont have an answer that will be palpable to stakeholders around NZ, although I think the current model is only a tweak or 2 away from being as good as we will get as NPC slowly loses its relevance.
@taniwharugby the only thing I see to maybe improving NPC is for maybe Southlnad to amalgamte with South Canterbury, and maybe Manawatu with Whanganui, or some such thing, though I not sure SC or Whang would be interested in going up even in a combined team, they seem prettyy happy as they are. Perhaps Southland and Manawatu go back and have a second and 3rd div again, but would imagine that would met with a lot of argument fron not only them, but Hurricanes and Highlanders too.
I just can'rt really see how the season would/should be changed apart from that. -
@taniwharugby the only thing I see to maybe improving NPC is for maybe Southlnad to amalgamte with South Canterbury, and maybe Manawatu with Whanganui, or some such thing, though I not sure SC or Whang would be interested in going up even in a combined team, they seem prettyy happy as they are. Perhaps Southland and Manawatu go back and have a second and 3rd div again, but would imagine that would met with a lot of argument fron not only them, but Hurricanes and Highlanders too.
I just can'rt really see how the season would/should be changed apart from that.@Dan54 well for a start, just play the other 6 teams in your pool, like the prvious version, playing teams not in your pool but getting points for it, aint great, then crossover 1/4s, will also remove the need for storm week, which is a win cos Wednesday night rugby aint ideal for viewers and players with 3 games in 8 days.
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@taniwharugby the only thing I see to maybe improving NPC is for maybe Southlnad to amalgamte with South Canterbury, and maybe Manawatu with Whanganui, or some such thing, though I not sure SC or Whang would be interested in going up even in a combined team, they seem prettyy happy as they are. Perhaps Southland and Manawatu go back and have a second and 3rd div again, but would imagine that would met with a lot of argument fron not only them, but Hurricanes and Highlanders too.
I just can'rt really see how the season would/should be changed apart from that.I just can'rt really see how the season would/should be changed apart from that.
because like @Duluth said you aren't thinking past tweaking what exists right now
which kinda sucks, and actually works against the ABs as well
i would love one professional comp taht runs from March to October.
Possibly with a side "Pacific Cup" tournament -
On the NPC, I don't have that much of a romantic attachment of it - in my younger days we were always bum fucking around in the 2nd Div and all our good players went to Dunedin. My romantic attachment is with the Magpies as a team I guess.
But, I see the NPC as a development comp and I think it does that job decently. I think that recently most teams have also learnt to balance their budgets which is a good thing. And I remember reading somewhere that Sky are happy with the viewing figures. I don't need the ABs in it all the time. Maybe that's due to coming from a Union that doesn't have lots of ABs every year and if I was from Canterbury or Auckland maybe I'd feel different?
Personally I've never been in favour of a year long NRL competition, not because I'm old but because it doesn't appeal to me. I like watching Super, the big tests, then NPC, the EOYT. Maybe I'm conditioned to that, but maybe if I got to watch the Magpies for 24 matches a year I'd change my tune.
At any rate this has been an interesting discussion and a welcome change from Fozzie bad.
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I think the romantic idea of an enlarged NPC comp and no super is just that, a romantic idea.
I make no bones I prefer the NPC even now to super, but fully understand why super is needed. If we had a 9-10 team comp, I doubt whether wages would stop more players going overseas. You will still probably keep ABs, but with reduced wages you will then lose a hell of a lot more of next tier players that now play super (and hance get more money).
Would certainly take a lot more players out of club rugby, as club rugby is also played when super is on, and you need the players playing a decent standard before test season. Could also tke us out of any world club comp consideration as weaker teams, if this idea goes ahead we need to be involved or lose more players unfortunately.. As i said earlier we on the pro merry go round now!I think the romantic idea of an enlarged NPC comp and no super is just that, a romantic idea.
I make no bones I prefer the NPC even now to super, but fully understand why super is needed. If we had a 9-10 team comp, I doubt whether wages would stop more players going overseas. You will still probably keep ABs, but with reduced wages you will then lose a hell of a lot more of next tier players that now play super (and hance get more money).
Would certainly take a lot more players out of club rugby, as club rugby is also played when super is on, and you need the players playing a decent standard before test season. Could also tke us out of any world club comp consideration as weaker teams, if this idea goes ahead we need to be involved or lose more players unfortunately.. As i said earlier we on the pro merry go round now!just addressing specific points, isn't that as easy as club rugby moves to winter/spring rather than autumn/winter....so all the best players in the country play in the same comp during the first half of the year....then we have mid year internationals/RC...then the AB's prep for and go on end of year tour
if anything we might actually get some more of the guys that only just miss out on the AB's playing club rugby then we do now
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I think the romantic idea of an enlarged NPC comp and no super is just that, a romantic idea.
I make no bones I prefer the NPC even now to super, but fully understand why super is needed. If we had a 9-10 team comp, I doubt whether wages would stop more players going overseas. You will still probably keep ABs, but with reduced wages you will then lose a hell of a lot more of next tier players that now play super (and hance get more money).
Would certainly take a lot more players out of club rugby, as club rugby is also played when super is on, and you need the players playing a decent standard before test season. Could also tke us out of any world club comp consideration as weaker teams, if this idea goes ahead we need to be involved or lose more players unfortunately.. As i said earlier we on the pro merry go round now!just addressing specific points, isn't that as easy as club rugby moves to winter/spring rather than autumn/winter....so all the best players in the country play in the same comp during the first half of the year....then we have mid year internationals/RC...then the AB's prep for and go on end of year tour
if anything we might actually get some more of the guys that only just miss out on the AB's playing club rugby then we do now
@Kiwiwomble said in Exodus:
I think the romantic idea of an enlarged NPC comp and no super is just that, a romantic idea.
I make no bones I prefer the NPC even now to super, but fully understand why super is needed. If we had a 9-10 team comp, I doubt whether wages would stop more players going overseas. You will still probably keep ABs, but with reduced wages you will then lose a hell of a lot more of next tier players that now play super (and hance get more money).
Would certainly take a lot more players out of club rugby, as club rugby is also played when super is on, and you need the players playing a decent standard before test season. Could also tke us out of any world club comp consideration as weaker teams, if this idea goes ahead we need to be involved or lose more players unfortunately.. As i said earlier we on the pro merry go round now!just addressing specific points, isn't that as easy as club rugby moves to winter/spring rather than autumn/winter....so all the best players in the country play in the same comp during the first half of the year....then we have mid year internationals/RC...then the AB's prep for and go on end of year tour
if anything we might actually get some more of the guys that only just miss out on the AB's playing club rugby then we do now
Yep mate, but you would destroy rugby in the places where farming is big part. Club rugby is designed around NZ farming, and most area's country clubs would fold, as spring is calving/lambing time. To be honest I forgot until I returned to live.
When covid caused season to start late last year, comp was made shorter as it had to finish before calving. Micheal Bent who played for Ireland this year from Hawera, couldn't play for the Naki last year because of farm. Would be similar in any rural areas, so would kill club rugby, the fabric of our game.
The idea has merit, but would I think maybe too big a problem outside of cities, and think it shows how many things have to be taken into consideration when setting up comps, guess mid year tour etc have to be taken into account too.
And I add would be great to get ABs on fringe back to clubs though. -
I just can'rt really see how the season would/should be changed apart from that.
because like @Duluth said you aren't thinking past tweaking what exists right now
which kinda sucks, and actually works against the ABs as well
i would love one professional comp taht runs from March to October.
Possibly with a side "Pacific Cup" tournament@mariner4life Yep that actually sounds good too Mariner, long comp, but would be end of inbound tours and RC as such wouldn't it.
I would prefer that super was shorter and started later, but understand why RA wants it started early to get a few games in before NRL and AFL starts. -
@mariner4life Yep that actually sounds good too Mariner, long comp, but would be end of inbound tours and RC as such wouldn't it.
I would prefer that super was shorter and started later, but understand why RA wants it started early to get a few games in before NRL and AFL starts. -
I think professional comp alongside club comp works. It like the feeder clubs in rugby league. Everyone is game ready.
Atm guys who aren't playing npc have nothing to get them game ready underneath it. Guys coming up and down into club teams would really add buy in rural cities. I know it happens alot in the super towns.
It streamlines everything imo.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Exodus:
I think the romantic idea of an enlarged NPC comp and no super is just that, a romantic idea.
I make no bones I prefer the NPC even now to super, but fully understand why super is needed. If we had a 9-10 team comp, I doubt whether wages would stop more players going overseas. You will still probably keep ABs, but with reduced wages you will then lose a hell of a lot more of next tier players that now play super (and hance get more money).
Would certainly take a lot more players out of club rugby, as club rugby is also played when super is on, and you need the players playing a decent standard before test season. Could also tke us out of any world club comp consideration as weaker teams, if this idea goes ahead we need to be involved or lose more players unfortunately.. As i said earlier we on the pro merry go round now!just addressing specific points, isn't that as easy as club rugby moves to winter/spring rather than autumn/winter....so all the best players in the country play in the same comp during the first half of the year....then we have mid year internationals/RC...then the AB's prep for and go on end of year tour
if anything we might actually get some more of the guys that only just miss out on the AB's playing club rugby then we do now
Yep mate, but you would destroy rugby in the places where farming is big part. Club rugby is designed around NZ farming, and most area's country clubs would fold, as spring is calving/lambing time. To be honest I forgot until I returned to live.
When covid caused season to start late last year, comp was made shorter as it had to finish before calving. Micheal Bent who played for Ireland this year from Hawera, couldn't play for the Naki last year because of farm. Would be similar in any rural areas, so would kill club rugby, the fabric of our game.
The idea has merit, but would I think maybe too big a problem outside of cities, and think it shows how many things have to be taken into consideration when setting up comps, guess mid year tour etc have to be taken into account too.
And I add would be great to get ABs on fringe back to clubs though.@Kiwiwomble said in Exodus:
I think the romantic idea of an enlarged NPC comp and no super is just that, a romantic idea.
I make no bones I prefer the NPC even now to super, but fully understand why super is needed. If we had a 9-10 team comp, I doubt whether wages would stop more players going overseas. You will still probably keep ABs, but with reduced wages you will then lose a hell of a lot more of next tier players that now play super (and hance get more money).
Would certainly take a lot more players out of club rugby, as club rugby is also played when super is on, and you need the players playing a decent standard before test season. Could also tke us out of any world club comp consideration as weaker teams, if this idea goes ahead we need to be involved or lose more players unfortunately.. As i said earlier we on the pro merry go round now!just addressing specific points, isn't that as easy as club rugby moves to winter/spring rather than autumn/winter....so all the best players in the country play in the same comp during the first half of the year....then we have mid year internationals/RC...then the AB's prep for and go on end of year tour
if anything we might actually get some more of the guys that only just miss out on the AB's playing club rugby then we do now
Yep mate, but you would destroy rugby in the places where farming is big part. Club rugby is designed around NZ farming, and most area's country clubs would fold, as spring is calving/lambing time. To be honest I forgot until I returned to live.
When covid caused season to start late last year, comp was made shorter as it had to finish before calving. Micheal Bent who played for Ireland this year from Hawera, couldn't play for the Naki last year because of farm. Would be similar in any rural areas, so would kill club rugby, the fabric of our game.
The idea has merit, but would I think maybe too big a problem outside of cities, and think it shows how many things have to be taken into consideration when setting up comps, guess mid year tour etc have to be taken into account too.
And I add would be great to get ABs on fringe back to clubs though.That’s fair and not something I’d thought about, might it still be better for rural and urban comps to be at different times then for the professional comps to be so messed up
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I think professional comp alongside club comp works. It like the feeder clubs in rugby league. Everyone is game ready.
Atm guys who aren't playing npc have nothing to get them game ready underneath it. Guys coming up and down into club teams would really add buy in rural cities. I know it happens alot in the super towns.
It streamlines everything imo.
@muddyriver said in Exodus:
I think professional comp alongside club comp works. It like the feeder clubs in rugby league. Everyone is game ready.
Atm guys who aren't playing npc have nothing to get them game ready underneath it. Guys coming up and down into club teams would really add buy in rural cities. I know it happens alot in the super towns.
It streamlines everything imo.
Not sure I understand you correctly, but parallel to the NPC, there are development team, age grade and other representative competitions. NPC players who aren't in the match day 23, and players on the NPC fringes, will play for teams taking part in those competitions.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Exodus:
I think the romantic idea of an enlarged NPC comp and no super is just that, a romantic idea.
I make no bones I prefer the NPC even now to super, but fully understand why super is needed. If we had a 9-10 team comp, I doubt whether wages would stop more players going overseas. You will still probably keep ABs, but with reduced wages you will then lose a hell of a lot more of next tier players that now play super (and hance get more money).
Would certainly take a lot more players out of club rugby, as club rugby is also played when super is on, and you need the players playing a decent standard before test season. Could also tke us out of any world club comp consideration as weaker teams, if this idea goes ahead we need to be involved or lose more players unfortunately.. As i said earlier we on the pro merry go round now!just addressing specific points, isn't that as easy as club rugby moves to winter/spring rather than autumn/winter....so all the best players in the country play in the same comp during the first half of the year....then we have mid year internationals/RC...then the AB's prep for and go on end of year tour
if anything we might actually get some more of the guys that only just miss out on the AB's playing club rugby then we do now
Yep mate, but you would destroy rugby in the places where farming is big part. Club rugby is designed around NZ farming, and most area's country clubs would fold, as spring is calving/lambing time. To be honest I forgot until I returned to live.
When covid caused season to start late last year, comp was made shorter as it had to finish before calving. Micheal Bent who played for Ireland this year from Hawera, couldn't play for the Naki last year because of farm. Would be similar in any rural areas, so would kill club rugby, the fabric of our game.
The idea has merit, but would I think maybe too big a problem outside of cities, and think it shows how many things have to be taken into consideration when setting up comps, guess mid year tour etc have to be taken into account too.
And I add would be great to get ABs on fringe back to clubs though.That’s fair and not something I’d thought about, might it still be better for rural and urban comps to be at different times then for the professional comps to be so messed up
@Kiwiwomble I must admit to be a traditionalist and liking things similar etc, but mare than that I think you need all club comps basically running same time so rep rugby etc can take place. It kind of makes you pause and think many of us have good ideas etc, but maybe don't actually have to then get out ideas to work. All comps I imagine have to be worked to allow for seasons (obviously), rep rugby (and all age stuff), and goes further up to top level. There are a lot of people with conficting interests etc involved.
I always remember years ago when parents/coaches would complain about how they felt their kids were having to many away games on Saturday mornings (comp was spread over 5 towns) and I sat down as an exercise and tried to work out how I would do a draw, it was a nightmare.. Gave even more credit to fella that did it. -
@muddyriver said in Exodus:
I think professional comp alongside club comp works. It like the feeder clubs in rugby league. Everyone is game ready.
Atm guys who aren't playing npc have nothing to get them game ready underneath it. Guys coming up and down into club teams would really add buy in rural cities. I know it happens alot in the super towns.
It streamlines everything imo.
Not sure I understand you correctly, but parallel to the NPC, there are development team, age grade and other representative competitions. NPC players who aren't in the match day 23, and players on the NPC fringes, will play for teams taking part in those competitions.
@Stargazer they last for 4 weeks of the season these days. And it's unorganized rubbish rugby for the most part.
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@mariner4life said in Exodus:
inbound tours and RC as such wouldn't it.
no, just a re-think
The november tours and 6-nations exist up north and their season is like 11 months long
Yep , needs complete global season change more than a rethink. WR has test windows set. But I think we need to shorten season length as ours is basically as long , from Feb to to beginning of Dec, too long. I would like it if we started in March and finished Oct/early Nov. We hammering (and by we I mean rugby in general) miles too much.
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@Stargazer they last for 4 weeks of the season these days. And it's unorganized rubbish rugby for the most part.
@muddyriver said in Exodus:
@Stargazer they last for 4 weeks of the season these days. And it's unorganized rubbish rugby for the most part.
Only unorganised rubbish for you maybe muddy, but very important to development of our younger players etc. I know the Naki development (B) team plays through to Oct, same as U20s etc, who have quite a good set comp, first in Chiefs area , then qualifiers play winners from other super areas.
