Exodus
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@Bovidae He's the type of player who unfortunately is a big loss, never going to be an AB , but so important to depth!
A little more than that IMO.
We are very quick to write players off in NZ if they don't look test standard after a couple of years.The more I read this, the more I'm wondering what you mean. Who's "we"? And how are "we" writing players off?
@Stargazer said in Exodus:
@Bovidae He's the type of player who unfortunately is a big loss, never going to be an AB , but so important to depth!
A little more than that IMO.
We are very quick to write players off in NZ if they don't look test standard after a couple of years.The more I read this, the more I'm wondering what you mean. Who's "we"? And how are "we" writing players off?
I suppose that the “we” that matters is the high level selectors and player development people.
The other “we” is just comment from general punters and mediathat compare players still developing with the finished level and declare that they’ll never make it.
The comments around Aki, JGP and Lowe on these forums for example were numerous in condemnation.
For every poster that is currently claiming great knowledge because the have argued for Jordie at 12 there have been 5 saying that those guys would never be international standard.
That kind of public sentiment does filter through and combine it with a lack of opportunity or planning from on high and no wonder players look elsewhere. -
@Stargazer said in Exodus:
@Bovidae He's the type of player who unfortunately is a big loss, never going to be an AB , but so important to depth!
A little more than that IMO.
We are very quick to write players off in NZ if they don't look test standard after a couple of years.The more I read this, the more I'm wondering what you mean. Who's "we"? And how are "we" writing players off?
I suppose that the “we” that matters is the high level selectors and player development people.
The other “we” is just comment from general punters and mediathat compare players still developing with the finished level and declare that they’ll never make it.
The comments around Aki, JGP and Lowe on these forums for example were numerous in condemnation.
For every poster that is currently claiming great knowledge because the have argued for Jordie at 12 there have been 5 saying that those guys would never be international standard.
That kind of public sentiment does filter through and combine it with a lack of opportunity or planning from on high and no wonder players look elsewhere.@Crucial I don't agree with you at all about this.
There may have been posters here to say that these players would never make the ABs, and on social media. (You usually don't see the media write it themselves). There's generally a lot of player fluffing on the Fern (and elsewhere) and there's the opposite and some push-back against the fluffing, too. And probably with some valid reasons, at the time. I can't remember any comments about Aki, but Lowe was regularly injured (he also had his arthritis issues) and - above all - had stiff competition (J Savea, Naholo, R Ioane, NMS). And JGP just wasn't that good when he played in NZ. The signs that he could develop into a test player just weren't there, I think. By the way, why would players care what people on forums and social media say?
I haven't seen/heard selectors/"player development people" say that these players would never make the ABs. And how would you know? They'd never say it (publically). They'd probably just justify the players that they did pick ahead of them. Lowe and JGP could also have concluded from their MABs selections that they weren't that far off, but apparently they didn't. IMO, these players just weren't selected for the ABs, gave up trying and decided to go for the money overseas. A lot of players do that, unfortunately. Give up too soon and sign lucrative contracts that pay more than they'd earn in NZ.
I remember a lot of discussion about NZ's second XV (Junior ABs, NZ 'A', NZ Barbarians) and that this team should have been used more. That's probably the only criticism that you can have against NZR in this respect, because it could have kept some players with potential in NZ for longer.
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@Crucial I don't agree with you at all about this.
There may have been posters here to say that these players would never make the ABs, and on social media. (You usually don't see the media write it themselves). There's generally a lot of player fluffing on the Fern (and elsewhere) and there's the opposite and some push-back against the fluffing, too. And probably with some valid reasons, at the time. I can't remember any comments about Aki, but Lowe was regularly injured (he also had his arthritis issues) and - above all - had stiff competition (J Savea, Naholo, R Ioane, NMS). And JGP just wasn't that good when he played in NZ. The signs that he could develop into a test player just weren't there, I think. By the way, why would players care what people on forums and social media say?
I haven't seen/heard selectors/"player development people" say that these players would never make the ABs. And how would you know? They'd never say it (publically). They'd probably just justify the players that they did pick ahead of them. Lowe and JGP could also have concluded from their MABs selections that they weren't that far off, but apparently they didn't. IMO, these players just weren't selected for the ABs, gave up trying and decided to go for the money overseas. A lot of players do that, unfortunately. Give up too soon and sign lucrative contracts that pay more than they'd earn in NZ.
I remember a lot of discussion about NZ's second XV (Junior ABs, NZ 'A', NZ Barbarians) and that this team should have been used more. That's probably the only criticism that you can have against NZR in this respect, because it could have kept some players with potential in NZ for longer.
@Stargazer said in Exodus:
@Crucial I don't agree with you at all about this.
There may have been posters here to say that these players would never make the ABs, and on social media. (You usually don't see the media write it themselves). There's generally a lot of player fluffing on the Fern (and elsewhere) and there's the opposite and some push-back against the fluffing, too. And probably with some valid reasons, at the time. I can't remember any comments about Aki, but Lowe was regularly injured (he also had his arthritis issues) and - above all - had stiff competition (J Savea, Naholo, R Ioane, NMS). And JGP just wasn't that good when he played in NZ. The signs that he could develop into a test player just weren't there, I think. By the way, why would players care what people on forums and social media say?
I haven't seen/heard selectors/"player development people" say that these players would never make the ABs. And how would you know? They'd never say it (publically). They'd probably just justify the players that they did pick ahead of them. Lowe and JGP could also have concluded from their MABs selections that they weren't that far off, but apparently they didn't. IMO, these players just weren't selected for the ABs, gave up trying and decided to go for the money overseas. A lot of players do that, unfortunately. Give up too soon and sign lucrative contracts that pay more than they'd earn in NZ.
I remember a lot of discussion about NZ's second XV (Junior ABs, NZ 'A', NZ Barbarians) and that this team should have been used more. That's probably the only criticism that you can have against NZR in this respect, because it could have kept some players with potential in NZ for longer.
I don't think we are disagreeing. I don't think the public criticisms play a big part and we don't know the official conversations. What I was fishing at was that there is no obvious plan to allow players that mature later (or are in positions where experience is a huge factor) to have that room to develop AND not be looking elsewhere for better money or opportunities.I don't have the answers just think it is a pity when 'exodus' players reach their peak and potential after we have lost them.
We don't select from overseas (not advocating that we do) so we can't claw them back easily.
As I said, it is just a pity and I get frustrated at the culture of always hyping the next shiny object we see and having them learn on the job. -
Hearing that both Tom Robinson and Shaun Stephenson are heading offshore after the super rugby season ,Robinson to Japan .
Stephenson came very close to signing an NRL contract ,Super Rugby form could be the game changer if not I think we can expect it will the last we see of him in NZ Rugby . -
Hearing that both Tom Robinson and Shaun Stephenson are heading offshore after the super rugby season ,Robinson to Japan .
Stephenson came very close to signing an NRL contract ,Super Rugby form could be the game changer if not I think we can expect it will the last we see of him in NZ Rugby .@Steven-Harris Next year's exodus look quite alarming. It seems like we could be attracting a few coaches back from overseas, which could help. I wonder if we could have a tie up with Japan whereby players can come back and play NPC and still be eligible for the ABs.
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@Steven-Harris Next year's exodus look quite alarming. It seems like we could be attracting a few coaches back from overseas, which could help. I wonder if we could have a tie up with Japan whereby players can come back and play NPC and still be eligible for the ABs.
@SBW1 I was thinking the same thing especially with several of the current All Blacks moving on.
This years Super Rugby is super important that a lot of young players put their hand up as there are some areas of player depth that are going to look very thin . -
Hearing that both Tom Robinson and Shaun Stephenson are heading offshore after the super rugby season ,Robinson to Japan .
Stephenson came very close to signing an NRL contract ,Super Rugby form could be the game changer if not I think we can expect it will the last we see of him in NZ Rugby .@Steven-Harris said in Exodus:
Hearing that both Tom Robinson and Shaun Stephenson are heading offshore after the super rugby season ,Robinson to Japan .
Stephenson came very close to signing an NRL contract ,Super Rugby form could be the game changer if not I think we can expect it will the last we see of him in NZ Rugby .They're genuinely two guys who could, probably should in Big Red's case, have been ABs. Bad luck for Big Red probably due to injury I think but Stephenson seems to be untrendy unfortunately. It seems Chiefs wings with booming boots aren't valued in NZ rugby.
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@Stargazer said in Exodus:
@Crucial I don't agree with you at all about this.
There may have been posters here to say that these players would never make the ABs, and on social media. (You usually don't see the media write it themselves). There's generally a lot of player fluffing on the Fern (and elsewhere) and there's the opposite and some push-back against the fluffing, too. And probably with some valid reasons, at the time. I can't remember any comments about Aki, but Lowe was regularly injured (he also had his arthritis issues) and - above all - had stiff competition (J Savea, Naholo, R Ioane, NMS). And JGP just wasn't that good when he played in NZ. The signs that he could develop into a test player just weren't there, I think. By the way, why would players care what people on forums and social media say?
I haven't seen/heard selectors/"player development people" say that these players would never make the ABs. And how would you know? They'd never say it (publically). They'd probably just justify the players that they did pick ahead of them. Lowe and JGP could also have concluded from their MABs selections that they weren't that far off, but apparently they didn't. IMO, these players just weren't selected for the ABs, gave up trying and decided to go for the money overseas. A lot of players do that, unfortunately. Give up too soon and sign lucrative contracts that pay more than they'd earn in NZ.
I remember a lot of discussion about NZ's second XV (Junior ABs, NZ 'A', NZ Barbarians) and that this team should have been used more. That's probably the only criticism that you can have against NZR in this respect, because it could have kept some players with potential in NZ for longer.
I don't think we are disagreeing. I don't think the public criticisms play a big part and we don't know the official conversations. What I was fishing at was that there is no obvious plan to allow players that mature later (or are in positions where experience is a huge factor) to have that room to develop AND not be looking elsewhere for better money or opportunities.I don't have the answers just think it is a pity when 'exodus' players reach their peak and potential after we have lost them.
We don't select from overseas (not advocating that we do) so we can't claw them back easily.
As I said, it is just a pity and I get frustrated at the culture of always hyping the next shiny object we see and having them learn on the job.@Crucial I think NZ Needs to start selecting form overseas.
Super Rugby is losing a whole squad (-30) of Starting players this year. The Conveyer belt isnt big enough. The Highlanders can hardly get a full squad this year and alot of squads already contain 'Future" players.
Overseas comps have got better, the best coaches are in those comps. It would reduce NZ rugbys overheads (smaller all black contracts). Soccer is a professional model tried and tested. the bigger economies rule the roost with club comps.
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@Crucial I think NZ Needs to start selecting form overseas.
Super Rugby is losing a whole squad (-30) of Starting players this year. The Conveyer belt isnt big enough. The Highlanders can hardly get a full squad this year and alot of squads already contain 'Future" players.
Overseas comps have got better, the best coaches are in those comps. It would reduce NZ rugbys overheads (smaller all black contracts). Soccer is a professional model tried and tested. the bigger economies rule the roost with club comps.
@muddyriver Could certainly be a big shot in the arm for the NPC if they made it a recquirement to play in that comp for qualification to All Black selection. This year is going to rely on our youngsters really stepping up in the Super comp.
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@Crucial I think NZ Needs to start selecting form overseas.
Super Rugby is losing a whole squad (-30) of Starting players this year. The Conveyer belt isnt big enough. The Highlanders can hardly get a full squad this year and alot of squads already contain 'Future" players.
Overseas comps have got better, the best coaches are in those comps. It would reduce NZ rugbys overheads (smaller all black contracts). Soccer is a professional model tried and tested. the bigger economies rule the roost with club comps.
@muddyriver said in Exodus:
@Crucial I think NZ Needs to start selecting form overseas.
Super Rugby is losing a whole squad (-30) of Starting players this year. The Conveyer belt isnt big enough. The Highlanders can hardly get a full squad this year and alot of squads already contain 'Future" players.
Overseas comps have got better, the best coaches are in those comps. It would reduce NZ rugbys overheads (smaller all black contracts). Soccer is a professional model tried and tested. the bigger economies rule the roost with club comps.
Some major negatives go with that though.
- our best players all go where the money is meaning that the 'future' players are all we have for our product/income
- those 'future' players no longer get to test themselves against/ train with the best players
- we lose control over availability. look how well the WR availability rules work for the PI nations
I agree that hard and fast selection rules dont take into account senior players on sabbaticals or overseas contracts and making them effectively 're-apply' can be silly.
The Giteau rule hasnt really worked out for Oz. -
@Steven-Harris said in Exodus:
Hearing that both Tom Robinson and Shaun Stephenson are heading offshore after the super rugby season ,Robinson to Japan .
Stephenson came very close to signing an NRL contract ,Super Rugby form could be the game changer if not I think we can expect it will the last we see of him in NZ Rugby .They're genuinely two guys who could, probably should in Big Red's case, have been ABs. Bad luck for Big Red probably due to injury I think but Stephenson seems to be untrendy unfortunately. It seems Chiefs wings with booming boots aren't valued in NZ rugby.
@Steven-Harris said in Exodus:
Hearing that both Tom Robinson and Shaun Stephenson are heading offshore after the super rugby season ,Robinson to Japan .
Stephenson came very close to signing an NRL contract ,Super Rugby form could be the game changer if not I think we can expect it will the last we see of him in NZ Rugby .They're genuinely two guys who could, probably should in Big Red's case, have been ABs. Bad luck for Big Red probably due to injury I think but Stephenson seems to be untrendy unfortunately. It seems Chiefs wings with booming boots aren't valued in NZ rugby.
Let's be realistic regarding Stevenson though. He (along with others) didn't demand selection at Super last season even when he wasnt injured. He did come back firing post Super though and he looks like continuing that form.
His problem now is the ABs finding room for him in a RWC year where the squad composition is usually light on the back three. -
@muddyriver said in Exodus:
@Crucial I think NZ Needs to start selecting form overseas.
Super Rugby is losing a whole squad (-30) of Starting players this year. The Conveyer belt isnt big enough. The Highlanders can hardly get a full squad this year and alot of squads already contain 'Future" players.
Overseas comps have got better, the best coaches are in those comps. It would reduce NZ rugbys overheads (smaller all black contracts). Soccer is a professional model tried and tested. the bigger economies rule the roost with club comps.
Some major negatives go with that though.
- our best players all go where the money is meaning that the 'future' players are all we have for our product/income
- those 'future' players no longer get to test themselves against/ train with the best players
- we lose control over availability. look how well the WR availability rules work for the PI nations
I agree that hard and fast selection rules dont take into account senior players on sabbaticals or overseas contracts and making them effectively 're-apply' can be silly.
The Giteau rule hasnt really worked out for Oz.@Crucial The vast Majority of income all comes from the All Blacks anyway. The PI nations also offer no considerable income for their players, The All Blacks payments would still be a significant portion of a players earnings
Domestic comps in traditional soccer countries still perform very well despite not being tier one comps.
Aussie struggles becuase they are Competing and losing with league for telent.
South Africa won the world cup with even looser rules than Aus.
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@Crucial The vast Majority of income all comes from the All Blacks anyway. The PI nations also offer no considerable income for their players, The All Blacks payments would still be a significant portion of a players earnings
Domestic comps in traditional soccer countries still perform very well despite not being tier one comps.
Aussie struggles becuase they are Competing and losing with league for telent.
South Africa won the world cup with even looser rules than Aus.
@muddyriver said in Exodus:
@Crucial The vast Majority of income all comes from the All Blacks anyway. The PI nations also offer no considerable income for their players, The All Blacks payments would still be a significant portion of a players earnings
Domestic comps in traditional soccer countries still perform very well despite not being tier one comps.
Aussie struggles becuase they are Competing and losing with league for telent.
South Africa won the world cup with even looser rules than Aus.
All valid points but we also depend on Super Rugby income in our books. We have already seen how SA are no longer an attraction for multi-national comps and Oz find it hard to justify equal split of revenue.
I'm not sure that devaluing the NZ supplied product is the answer to a problem which is devaluing our product.
Soccer is not a similar product in any shape. It is well established as a tribal sport first and foremost and quality/player roster is not the biggest driver of public support. We all know dedicated football fans that watch their team and spend money despite how good/shit they are or where the players come from.
I think that a good case could be made for opening our franchises up to other international players in Oz/NZ and PI in the not too distant future. -
@Crucial I think NZ Needs to start selecting form overseas.
Super Rugby is losing a whole squad (-30) of Starting players this year. The Conveyer belt isnt big enough. The Highlanders can hardly get a full squad this year and alot of squads already contain 'Future" players.
Overseas comps have got better, the best coaches are in those comps. It would reduce NZ rugbys overheads (smaller all black contracts). Soccer is a professional model tried and tested. the bigger economies rule the roost with club comps.
@muddyriver said in Exodus:
@Crucial I think NZ Needs to start selecting form overseas.
Super Rugby is losing a whole squad (-30) of Starting players this year. The Conveyer belt isnt big enough. The Highlanders can hardly get a full squad this year and alot of squads already contain 'Future" players.
Overseas comps have got better, the best coaches are in those comps. It would reduce NZ rugbys overheads (smaller all black contracts). Soccer is a professional model tried and tested. the bigger economies rule the roost with club comps.
Only as a last resort. NZ are currently in a difficult position I know but hope they can sort things out. I can't see an answer to it myself but I wouldn't like for say the 10 top players in the ABs to play for overseas team not NZ SRP teams. Esp if say Savea and Barrett were 2 to go.
One advantage might be to weaken NZ teams so that Aust were more competitive.
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@muddyriver said in Exodus:
@Crucial I think NZ Needs to start selecting form overseas.
Super Rugby is losing a whole squad (-30) of Starting players this year. The Conveyer belt isnt big enough. The Highlanders can hardly get a full squad this year and alot of squads already contain 'Future" players.
Overseas comps have got better, the best coaches are in those comps. It would reduce NZ rugbys overheads (smaller all black contracts). Soccer is a professional model tried and tested. the bigger economies rule the roost with club comps.
Only as a last resort. NZ are currently in a difficult position I know but hope they can sort things out. I can't see an answer to it myself but I wouldn't like for say the 10 top players in the ABs to play for overseas team not NZ SRP teams. Esp if say Savea and Barrett were 2 to go.
One advantage might be to weaken NZ teams so that Aust were more competitive.
@Winger I think the Aussie teams will be stronger this year anyway. Really don't like the idea of dumming down our comp to make the Aussies look good. It is not like they don't already rely on a significant amount of our coaching and players to prop up their comp.
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@Crucial I think NZ Needs to start selecting form overseas.
Super Rugby is losing a whole squad (-30) of Starting players this year. The Conveyer belt isnt big enough. The Highlanders can hardly get a full squad this year and alot of squads already contain 'Future" players.
Overseas comps have got better, the best coaches are in those comps. It would reduce NZ rugbys overheads (smaller all black contracts). Soccer is a professional model tried and tested. the bigger economies rule the roost with club comps.
@muddyriver said in Exodus:
@Crucial I think NZ Needs to start selecting form overseas.
Super Rugby is losing a whole squad (-30) of Starting players this year. The Conveyer belt isnt big enough. The Highlanders can hardly get a full squad this year and alot of squads already contain 'Future" players.
Overseas comps have got better, the best coaches are in those comps. It would reduce NZ rugbys overheads (smaller all black contracts). Soccer is a professional model tried and tested. the bigger economies rule the roost with club comps.
Rugby isn't soccer, it's not comparing apples wth apples. The ABs can't just throw teams together pre-tournament/tour from players all over the globe and expect success. The sports are different, that's why even some NH teams restrict their players from even playing in a competition a few hours away.
Every time this is brought up we look at the overseas players and conclude there's barely any who would realistically make the team anyway.
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@muddyriver said in Exodus:
@Crucial I think NZ Needs to start selecting form overseas.
Super Rugby is losing a whole squad (-30) of Starting players this year. The Conveyer belt isnt big enough. The Highlanders can hardly get a full squad this year and alot of squads already contain 'Future" players.
Overseas comps have got better, the best coaches are in those comps. It would reduce NZ rugbys overheads (smaller all black contracts). Soccer is a professional model tried and tested. the bigger economies rule the roost with club comps.
Rugby isn't soccer, it's not comparing apples wth apples. The ABs can't just throw teams together pre-tournament/tour from players all over the globe and expect success. The sports are different, that's why even some NH teams restrict their players from even playing in a competition a few hours away.
Every time this is brought up we look at the overseas players and conclude there's barely any who would realistically make the team anyway.
@muddyriver said in Exodus:
@Crucial I think NZ Needs to start selecting form overseas.
Super Rugby is losing a whole squad (-30) of Starting players this year. The Conveyer belt isnt big enough. The Highlanders can hardly get a full squad this year and alot of squads already contain 'Future" players.
Overseas comps have got better, the best coaches are in those comps. It would reduce NZ rugbys overheads (smaller all black contracts). Soccer is a professional model tried and tested. the bigger economies rule the roost with club comps.
Rugby isn't soccer, it's not comparing apples wth apples. The ABs can't just throw teams together pre-tournament/tour from players all over the globe and expect success. The sports are different, that's why even some NH teams restrict their players from even playing in a competition a few hours away.
Every time this is brought up we look at the overseas players and conclude there's barely any who would realistically make the team anyway.
Yep totally agree I would hate to see us select from overseas and it would become a free for all.
