Foster, Robertson etc
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@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Personally, I'm completely agnostic on who coaches the ABs (I thought Foster should have gone after Ireland III), but if Robertson gets the nod, he'd better be the best AB coach of all time with a 90%+ win record after a few games in or the media shit-storm directed against him - and by extension the blokes who appointed him - is going to be epic.
Nah, he will be given some leeway. Just like Foster was with all his shit performances.
One would hope so - any new coach deserves that - but a quick Google search shows Foster was getting it in the neck pretty much from day 1.
@Victor-Meldrew Headless chook play, a complete lack of tactics, picking players out of form, a seemingly complete lack of awareness of what was wrong, absolutely no innovation from the previous coaching set up and so forth was the reason for the negativity from the beginning.
The frustration from 2019 (or earlier) has been absolutely immense for AB fans and now Foster goes on a rant? I had sympathy for him but it is all gone now. I just want him to fuck off. -
Yep don't even mind losing now and again but the chaos was driving me insane.
Not very often in the past have the ABs been outthought but in recent times it became a pattern.The NZR have dug a hole and they are still in it
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@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Personally, I'm completely agnostic on who coaches the ABs (I thought Foster should have gone after Ireland III), but if Robertson gets the nod, he'd better be the best AB coach of all time with a 90%+ win record after a few games in or the media shit-storm directed against him - and by extension the blokes who appointed him - is going to be epic.
Nah, he will be given some leeway. Just like Foster was with all his shit performances.
One would hope so - any new coach deserves that - but a quick Google search shows Foster was getting it in the neck pretty much from day 1.
@Victor-Meldrew so people could see what was coming...
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@Victor-Meldrew Headless chook play, a complete lack of tactics, picking players out of form, a seemingly complete lack of awareness of what was wrong, absolutely no innovation from the previous coaching set up and so forth was the reason for the negativity from the beginning.
The frustration from 2019 (or earlier) has been absolutely immense for AB fans and now Foster goes on a rant? I had sympathy for him but it is all gone now. I just want him to fuck off.@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster, Robertson etc:
hat was wrong, absolutely no innovation from the previous coaching set up and so forth was the reason for the negativity from the beginning.
It would have helped if he had won at least one super rugby title. And the Chiefs fans rated him highly as a head coach. In other words an outstanding or VG record at the next level down
Robertson irritates me but he's got the record. And may be exactly what NZ rugby needs right now.
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@Victor-Meldrew so people could see what was coming...
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew so people could see what was coming...
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew so people could see what was coming...
Because we had the same shit already for 2 or 3 years, everyone with half a brain realized that foster was going to be a continuation of late Hansen lack of innovation and mediocrity. Or worse, which is the actual case, sadly.
And getting rid of foster even if he wins is not unprecedented, just unprecedented here. C.f. South Africa. It also says in no uncertain terms that winning the cup is not the be all and end all for the ABs, which is as it should be. It is not acceptable to be shit for 4 years as long as you win the cup
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Remember when it wasn't acceptable to be excellent for four years then not win the cup?
I do think that frustrations have caused a bit of revisionism with fans. This has not been a 'normal' cycle.
Foster's first game in charge was almost a whole year after the last time they played then the hell season of covid where virtually no cohesive plans could take place with some players in and out for periods, a very long away time and no home comps of quality for the next tier down. He has also had to deal with selecting from a pool that has had regular comp against SA taken away and that has shown big time.
I'm not trying to make excuses for him as this 'perfect storm' period has highlighted his weaknesses (especially loyalty over form in both players and staff) but think that any coach would have struggled to implement a measured programme of change through that much disruption.
Combine all that with the surge of Ireland and France as very improved sides and we got what we got.
Could someone else have done better? Quite possibly. That doesn't make him the muppet he gets painted as though.
Fans desiring wins is one thing. Fans feeling entitled to wins is another and shows to me either short memories or no knowledge of rugby history. -
If Fozzie doesn't realise how lucky he is to still be coach he is delusional. We were a rabble under his watch, as a result the NZRFU forced Schmidt and Ryan on him, which resulted in significant improvement. But if he lost that game in SA he was a goneburger. I want him to stop talking in the media acting all butt hurt, and fucken just get on with trying to win the Bled and the RWC. I'll be more than happy if he does this as a big FU to the union on his way out the door
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If Fozzie doesn't realise how lucky he is to still be coach he is delusional. We were a rabble under his watch, as a result the NZRFU forced Schmidt and Ryan on him, which resulted in significant improvement. But if he lost that game in SA he was a goneburger. I want him to stop talking in the media acting all butt hurt, and fucken just get on with trying to win the Bled and the RWC. I'll be more than happy if he does this as a big FU to the union on his way out the door
My annoyance is that if the NZRU rate him so lowly why is he still there?
It seems a suicidal risk to go into the world cup with a coach you don't rate or believe is good enough. They should have simply gotten rid of him and not had this shambles being played out in the media as it is now.
The fact Fozzie is still there is not "his fault" if we are all incredulous and angry that he's there our ire should be pointed at the NZR (who put him there and could remove him from there) - not Fozzie.
If they just fired him in SA I would have been happy.
If they had said nothing in the media (and Robertson and Fozzie had said nothing either) I'd be less happy as I don't rate Foster but at least the NZR is showing a unified front to win the RWC.
As it is we have a hopeless half-way house of an inadequate coach and a top level rugby community (coach, players, NZR) seemingly split on two sides as we head into the RWC.
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Remember when it wasn't acceptable to be excellent for four years then not win the cup?
I do think that frustrations have caused a bit of revisionism with fans. This has not been a 'normal' cycle.
Foster's first game in charge was almost a whole year after the last time they played then the hell season of covid where virtually no cohesive plans could take place with some players in and out for periods, a very long away time and no home comps of quality for the next tier down. He has also had to deal with selecting from a pool that has had regular comp against SA taken away and that has shown big time.
I'm not trying to make excuses for him as this 'perfect storm' period has highlighted his weaknesses (especially loyalty over form in both players and staff) but think that any coach would have struggled to implement a measured programme of change through that much disruption.
Combine all that with the surge of Ireland and France as very improved sides and we got what we got.
Could someone else have done better? Quite possibly. That doesn't make him the muppet he gets painted as though.
Fans desiring wins is one thing. Fans feeling entitled to wins is another and shows to me either short memories or no knowledge of rugby history. -
What's revisionist is the claim that it was ever acceptable to lose games irrespective of against who or when. Doesn't matter if it's the RWC or the intervening years. It's ridiculous to claim that AB fans would have happily accepted one or the other.
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Can we accept the fact that sometimes another team can be better than us?
If not, why watch? There is then only the possibly of getting pissed off. No elation over an expected win, just annoyance at a loss.
I expect and accept good performance. If that isn't enough because the other team is better so be it.
Agree that it isn't acceptable to play below a high standard but winning and losing can be separate thing. -
I would add that if you're going to blame Covid explain how Argentina beat the shit out of us when they had it far worse in terms of prep and travel.
This team has been a clueless headless chicken since Foster started and that has been ruthlessly exposed. Yes other teams have caught up but much of that is due to them actually having tactics that work and being much better coached. I dont buy the talent argument. I mean just look at who Ireland have on the wing. One of our cast-offs ffs.
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I would add that if you're going to blame Covid explain how Argentina beat the shit out of us when they had it far worse in terms of prep and travel.
This team has been a clueless headless chicken since Foster started and that has been ruthlessly exposed. Yes other teams have caught up but much of that is due to them actually having tactics that work and being much better coached. I dont buy the talent argument. I mean just look at who Ireland have on the wing. One of our cast-offs ffs.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I would add that if you're going to blame Covid explain how Argentina beat the shit out of us when they had it far worse in terms of prep and travel.
Of all the teams in world rugby we should have been the least effected by Covid - we had a whole year that we were able to play, practice and train that other nations did not have but my goodness we came out of the gates rusty and haven't really improved much since then.
I remember George Bridge in that Argentina game (up until then with the reputation of Mr. Reliable) running around like a complete headless chicken looking like he hadn't seen a rugby ball in years...
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I would add that if you're going to blame Covid explain how Argentina beat the shit out of us when they had it far worse in terms of prep and travel.
Of all the teams in world rugby we should have been the least effected by Covid - we had a whole year that we were able to play, practice and train that other nations did not have but my goodness we came out of the gates rusty and haven't really improved much since then.
I remember George Bridge in that Argentina game (up until then with the reputation of Mr. Reliable) running around like a complete headless chicken looking like he hadn't seen a rugby ball in years...
@Windows97 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I remember George Bridge..running...
steady on, "running" is a bit of a stretch, don't you mean jogging with intent?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I would add that if you're going to blame Covid explain how Argentina beat the shit out of us when they had it far worse in terms of prep and travel.
Of all the teams in world rugby we should have been the least effected by Covid - we had a whole year that we were able to play, practice and train that other nations did not have but my goodness we came out of the gates rusty and haven't really improved much since then.
I remember George Bridge in that Argentina game (up until then with the reputation of Mr. Reliable) running around like a complete headless chicken looking like he hadn't seen a rugby ball in years...
@Windows97 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I would add that if you're going to blame Covid explain how Argentina beat the shit out of us when they had it far worse in terms of prep and travel.
Of all the teams in world rugby we should have been the least effected by Covid - we had a whole year that we were able to play, practice and train that other nations did not have but my goodness we came out of the gates rusty and haven't really improved much since then.
I remember George Bridge in that Argentina game (up until then with the reputation of Mr. Reliable) running around like a complete headless chicken looking like he hadn't seen a rugby ball in years...
Not entirely sure that it is accurate to say we had a whole year to train and play. Regional lockdowns, Auckland lockdowns, no comps or access to training grounds/gyms together……
Anyway my OP wasn’t using Covid as an excuse, it was listed as something that made this cycle very different, made plan execution difficult and makes it difficult to judge team progression against a normal period.
Could be that Foster had no plans anyway. I have no idea. Can just see that if there were plans to make changes to style they wouldn’t have been able to be implemented easily. -
Can we accept the fact that sometimes another team can be better than us?
If not, why watch? There is then only the possibly of getting pissed off. No elation over an expected win, just annoyance at a loss.
I expect and accept good performance. If that isn't enough because the other team is better so be it.
Agree that it isn't acceptable to play below a high standard but winning and losing can be separate thing."Here’s the crux of the matter. Foster’s record does not stand up to scrutiny. He has won 67% of his tests – behind all of his predecessors in the professional era. John Hart won 76%, Wayne Smith (who quit in dismay) 71, John Mitchell (unceremoniously dumped after a 2003 World Cup semifinal exit) 82, Graham Henry 85 and Steve Hansen 87."
"Dig deeper and the picture is even gloomier. Foster has had a lot of creampuffs on his schedule. His record against fellow top-five teams – Ireland, France, South Africa and England – reads an abysmal three wins from seven."
"It appears the All Blacks coach wants his cake and to eat it, too. He was happy to be reappointed before his first two-year term was up, without consideration for other parties (the first of several mistakes made by NZR on this). Yet now he’s adamant the time must play out."
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@KiwiMurph said in Foster, Robertson etc:
OPINION: Mark Robinson is wedged between a rock and a hard place now...Missed a trick there. Hinton could have written:
OPINION: Mark Robinson is wedged between a sook and a sad place now -
"Here’s the crux of the matter. Foster’s record does not stand up to scrutiny. He has won 67% of his tests – behind all of his predecessors in the professional era. John Hart won 76%, Wayne Smith (who quit in dismay) 71, John Mitchell (unceremoniously dumped after a 2003 World Cup semifinal exit) 82, Graham Henry 85 and Steve Hansen 87."
"Dig deeper and the picture is even gloomier. Foster has had a lot of creampuffs on his schedule. His record against fellow top-five teams – Ireland, France, South Africa and England – reads an abysmal three wins from seven."
"It appears the All Blacks coach wants his cake and to eat it, too. He was happy to be reappointed before his first two-year term was up, without consideration for other parties (the first of several mistakes made by NZR on this). Yet now he’s adamant the time must play out."
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
"Here’s the crux of the matter. Foster’s record does not stand up to scrutiny. He has won 67% of his tests – behind all of his predecessors in the professional era. John Hart won 76%, Wayne Smith (who quit in dismay) 71, John Mitchell (unceremoniously dumped after a 2003 World Cup semifinal exit) 82, Graham Henry 85 and Steve Hansen 87."
"Dig deeper and the picture is even gloomier. Foster has had a lot of creampuffs on his schedule. His record against fellow top-five teams – Ireland, France, South Africa and England – reads an abysmal three wins from seven."
"It appears the All Blacks coach wants his cake and to eat it, too. He was happy to be reappointed before his first two-year term was up, without consideration for other parties (the first of several mistakes made by NZR on this). Yet now he’s adamant the time must play out."
Finally someone in the media pointing out the obvious. Really this should have been said to his face, and then see how he reacts. But interviewers are normally facetious
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
"Here’s the crux of the matter. Foster’s record does not stand up to scrutiny. He has won 67% of his tests – behind all of his predecessors in the professional era. John Hart won 76%, Wayne Smith (who quit in dismay) 71, John Mitchell (unceremoniously dumped after a 2003 World Cup semifinal exit) 82, Graham Henry 85 and Steve Hansen 87."
"Dig deeper and the picture is even gloomier. Foster has had a lot of creampuffs on his schedule. His record against fellow top-five teams – Ireland, France, South Africa and England – reads an abysmal three wins from seven."
"It appears the All Blacks coach wants his cake and to eat it, too. He was happy to be reappointed before his first two-year term was up, without consideration for other parties (the first of several mistakes made by NZR on this). Yet now he’s adamant the time must play out."
Finally someone in the media pointing out the obvious. Really this should have been said to his face, and then see how he reacts. But interviewers are normally facetious
@Machpants said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
"Here’s the crux of the matter. Foster’s record does not stand up to scrutiny. He has won 67% of his tests – behind all of his predecessors in the professional era. John Hart won 76%, Wayne Smith (who quit in dismay) 71, John Mitchell (unceremoniously dumped after a 2003 World Cup semifinal exit) 82, Graham Henry 85 and Steve Hansen 87."
"Dig deeper and the picture is even gloomier. Foster has had a lot of creampuffs on his schedule. His record against fellow top-five teams – Ireland, France, South Africa and England – reads an abysmal three wins from seven."
"It appears the All Blacks coach wants his cake and to eat it, too. He was happy to be reappointed before his first two-year term was up, without consideration for other parties (the first of several mistakes made by NZR on this). Yet now he’s adamant the time must play out."
Finally someone in the media pointing out the obvious. Really this should have been said to his face, and then see how he reacts. But interviewers are normally facetious
lies, damn lies, and statistics though
John Hart's record looks great with the incredible team he was handed, and having Christian Fucking Cullen fall in his lap. 98 and 99 not so good. And guess what his record was against top 5 teams in those years? oh look a very similar 7 of 15
Smith's record against the top 5 teams isn't too much better at about 6 from 11
JMitch is the one who probably has the most to whinge about. A great record over all AND against the other top 5 sides he won 11 of 14
The Henry through Hanson era will never be replicated and shouldn't even be compared to (except by the first two years of Hart's reign)Add in Foster playing a far higher percentage of games outside of NZ and those numbers are going to get screwy.
Do i think he's doing a good job? no
But some of the shit that is getting thrown around at the moment is quite fucking ridiculous. He's going to the World Cup, and if a couple of things fall our way, we're as much of a chance as anyone to win it too -
@Machpants said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
"Here’s the crux of the matter. Foster’s record does not stand up to scrutiny. He has won 67% of his tests – behind all of his predecessors in the professional era. John Hart won 76%, Wayne Smith (who quit in dismay) 71, John Mitchell (unceremoniously dumped after a 2003 World Cup semifinal exit) 82, Graham Henry 85 and Steve Hansen 87."
"Dig deeper and the picture is even gloomier. Foster has had a lot of creampuffs on his schedule. His record against fellow top-five teams – Ireland, France, South Africa and England – reads an abysmal three wins from seven."
"It appears the All Blacks coach wants his cake and to eat it, too. He was happy to be reappointed before his first two-year term was up, without consideration for other parties (the first of several mistakes made by NZR on this). Yet now he’s adamant the time must play out."
Finally someone in the media pointing out the obvious. Really this should have been said to his face, and then see how he reacts. But interviewers are normally facetious
lies, damn lies, and statistics though
John Hart's record looks great with the incredible team he was handed, and having Christian Fucking Cullen fall in his lap. 98 and 99 not so good. And guess what his record was against top 5 teams in those years? oh look a very similar 7 of 15
Smith's record against the top 5 teams isn't too much better at about 6 from 11
JMitch is the one who probably has the most to whinge about. A great record over all AND against the other top 5 sides he won 11 of 14
The Henry through Hanson era will never be replicated and shouldn't even be compared to (except by the first two years of Hart's reign)Add in Foster playing a far higher percentage of games outside of NZ and those numbers are going to get screwy.
Do i think he's doing a good job? no
But some of the shit that is getting thrown around at the moment is quite fucking ridiculous. He's going to the World Cup, and if a couple of things fall our way, we're as much of a chance as anyone to win it too@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
John Hart's record looks great with the incredible team he was handed, and having Christian Fucking Cullen fall in his lap. 98 and 99 not so good. And guess what his record was against top 5 teams in those years? oh look a very similar 7 of 15
True. And the last time a coach really copped it for his efforts -- that very same Hart. He was not treated at all gracefully. Worse than anything Foster has got yet (although if we crap out at the Cup, then I imagine that will change).
Foster is in this trouble because he has been poor. Just as Hart got lots of flak when the losses started to mount.
(The win/loss statistics do hide one thing -- Hart lost very few test by a lot. Foster's losses have been of a very different nature. The ABs have always lost, but rarely been thrashed.)
