Foster, Robertson etc
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I'd like those claiming Joseph is the better coach to at least attempt to back it up with some evidence - they can't.
Joseph has had a couple of notable successes interspersed between inconsistent poor results and that has been a constant throughout his coaching career - Wellington, Maori All Blacks, Highlanders, Japan. His record is good on the surface level however upon closer examination it's not nearly as impressive as people make it to be, he's almost developed a bit of a mythical status where people have extremely selective memories, his reputation isn't affected by performances and poor results simply equates to good international experience.
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'd like those claiming Joseph is the better coach to at least attempt to back it up with some evidence - they can't.
4I would suggest none of us know who the best coach is, we haven't been coached by them, and to be honest, from what I have read on posts, most are looking at results only. Not a lot seem to think coaching at different levels requires usually different skills, from what I have seen most have got their knowledge from reading opinions of other posters or so called press.
I have to say I find it hard to disagree with Mariner4life about how arrogant some so called AB supporters appear to be, an awful lot seem to know a lot more about requirements of top level coaches than the people actually talking to and involved in the process of appointing coaches, a lot seem to get an awful lot of knowledge sitting on their arses in whatever part of the world they are in!
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probably better suited for the Aussie Rugby thread but its about coaches so here goes
the head coaches of my club went to an evening with eddie jones in melbourne the other night, he laid out his plans for the wallabies, "cleaning house" "im giving them all targets and if they dont meet them theyre out" "we're not fit enough" "we give up too easily"....all the stuff you expect to hear
what was interesting, apparently he's reached out to hansen to bring him on board in some sort of mentoring role but once he's in the building the job title doesn;t really matter. Hansen apparently told him no one from NZR has reached out too him since he left pretty much, he's sitting around the house looking for something to do and so was quite keen
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@ARHS said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew but it's only Thursday in Wales? Who is Robinson? But seriously, I hope Joe Schmidt puts his name forward.
Now I'm confused. I thought people were saying Schmidt doesn't want it?
He does seem loyal to Foster.
But why can't we know who the candidates are? Are they precious wallflowers? Is it commercially dangerous (to their current or potential roles) to know who is applying?@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@ARHS said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew but it's only Thursday in Wales? Who is Robinson? But seriously, I hope Joe Schmidt puts his name forward.
Now I'm confused. I thought people were saying Schmidt doesn't want it?
He does seem loyal to Foster.
But why can't we know who the candidates are? Are they precious wallflowers? Is it commercially dangerous (to their current or potential roles) to know who is applying?Why do you need to know?
Flagging to future prospectiv employers who else has turned you down in the past isn't something you would do so why is rugby different?
Aside from that it just feeds the media and boards like this with ammo to make their own judgements without the facts.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
But why can't we know who the candidates are? Are they precious wallflowers? Is it commercially dangerous (to their current or potential roles) to know who is applying?
It's because of commercial sensitivity/confidentiality issues - just like every multi-million dollar business on planet Earth.
Well at least we knew how many were applying in 2019/2020
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/402673/nzr-only-interviewing-kiwi-coaches-for-all-blacks-job@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
But why can't we know who the candidates are? Are they precious wallflowers? Is it commercially dangerous (to their current or potential roles) to know who is applying?
It's because of commercial sensitivity/confidentiality issues - just like every multi-million dollar business on planet Earth.
Well at least we knew how many were applying in 2019/2020
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/402673/nzr-only-interviewing-kiwi-coaches-for-all-blacks-jobBlocking out foreigners and Hansen giving what looks like a Hitler salute. Coincidence?
In all seriousness, what foreigners would have been considered? What a complete nothing statement.
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probably better suited for the Aussie Rugby thread but its about coaches so here goes
the head coaches of my club went to an evening with eddie jones in melbourne the other night, he laid out his plans for the wallabies, "cleaning house" "im giving them all targets and if they dont meet them theyre out" "we're not fit enough" "we give up too easily"....all the stuff you expect to hear
what was interesting, apparently he's reached out to hansen to bring him on board in some sort of mentoring role but once he's in the building the job title doesn;t really matter. Hansen apparently told him no one from NZR has reached out too him since he left pretty much, he's sitting around the house looking for something to do and so was quite keen
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Hansen apparently told him no one from NZR has reached out too him since he left pretty much, he's sitting around the house looking for something to do and so was quite keen
If that's true it's bloody appalling that a 2-times RWC winning coach wants to help out and he's been ignored when he has something to offer. Just look at the impact that Wayne Smith has had on the Black Ferns and woman' rugby.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Hansen apparently told him no one from NZR has reached out too him since he left pretty much, he's sitting around the house looking for something to do and so was quite keen
If that's true it's bloody appalling that a 2-times RWC winning coach wants to help out and he's been ignored when he has something to offer. Just look at the impact that Wayne Smith has had on the Black Ferns and woman' rugby.
@Victor-Meldrew would be a bit of a "fuck you" to fozzie too, i thought hansen has supported him as his successor
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'd like those claiming Joseph is the better coach to at least attempt to back it up with some evidence - they can't.
4I would suggest none of us know who the best coach is, we haven't been coached by them, and to be honest, from what I have read on posts, most are looking at results only. Not a lot seem to think coaching at different levels requires usually different skills, from what I have seen most have got their knowledge from reading opinions of other posters or so called press.
I have to say I find it hard to disagree with Mariner4life about how arrogant some so called AB supporters appear to be, an awful lot seem to know a lot more about requirements of top level coaches than the people actually talking to and involved in the process of appointing coaches, a lot seem to get an awful lot of knowledge sitting on their arses in whatever part of the world they are in!
@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I have to say I find it hard to disagree with Mariner4life about how arrogant some so called AB supporters appear to be, an awful lot seem to know a lot more about requirements of top level coaches than the people actually talking to and involved in the process of appointing coaches, a lot seem to get an awful lot of knowledge sitting on their arses in whatever part of the world they are in!
It's not limited to AB supporters. The world is full of people who can do other people's jobs way better than those actually doing it.
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I thought the collective wisdom was that Hansen was tapped out on ideas?
If Foster had brought him into the fold the meltdown here would have been huge.
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I thought the collective wisdom was that Hansen was tapped out on ideas?
If Foster had brought him into the fold the meltdown here would have been huge.
my feeling when i was being told was "i didn't want him anymore but i definitely don't want someone else to have him!"...i'll admit that
more critically, i thought he'd done his run as head coach, but after a bit of a break i think he probably does have some idea as an assistant, a different pair of eyes
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@Victor-Meldrew would be a bit of a "fuck you" to fozzie too, i thought hansen has supported him as his successor
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew would be a bit of a "fuck you" to fozzie too, i thought hansen has supported him as his successor
It was more about NZR (allegedly) not wanting to utilise Hansen when he has much to offer. Criminal if true.
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@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I have to say I find it hard to disagree with Mariner4life about how arrogant some so called AB supporters appear to be, an awful lot seem to know a lot more about requirements of top level coaches than the people actually talking to and involved in the process of appointing coaches, a lot seem to get an awful lot of knowledge sitting on their arses in whatever part of the world they are in!
It's not limited to AB supporters. The world is full of people who can do other people's jobs way better than those actually doing it.
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
It's not limited to AB supporters. The world is full of people who can do other people's jobs way better than those actually doing it.
Normally called Management Consultants.
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat i dont actually know what your trying to say now....do we or dont we base in on win rates regardless of how good the team they coached was?
let me translate
"Scott Robertson is the only choice no matter what criteria you choose and anyone who disagrees with me is incompetent"
the actual words don't matter.
Had the Fernies happened this was the easiest Broken Record winner in the history of the award
I'd like for those claiming Joseph is the better coach to at least attempt to back it up with some evidence - they can't.
Joseph has had a couple of notable successes interspersed between inconsistent poor results and that has been a constant throughout his coaching career - Wellington, Maori All Blacks, Highlanders, Japan. His record is good on the surface level however upon closer examination it's not nearly as impressive as people make it to be, he's almost developed a bit of a mythical status where people have extremely selective memories, his reputation isn't affected by performances and poor results simply equates to good international experience.
Who is claiming that he is the better coach?
i refer you to my earlier translation. the actual words mean nothing
if old mate @george33 has some sort of secret sauce i reckon this joint is going to melt down and i am here for it.
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
if old mate @george33 has some sort of secret sauce i reckon this joint is going to melt down and i am here for it.
Mark Robinson: Joe you've got the job, but don't tell anyone, otherwise we're going to look like complete fluffybunnies.
Joe Schmidt: Can I tell my wife?
Mark Robinson: Aaah, yeah - as long as she promises not to tell anyone.
Joe Schmidt: Can I tell George33?
Mark Robinson: Ooh, yeah, nah, probably not. I dunno whether we could trust him to keep it to himself.
So unless George is Mrs. Schmidt, I'm not believing a word.
And even if he is Mrs. Schmidt - I'm Mr. Spitfire and shooting him down in flames!
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Hansen in 2019
“I think change after the World Cup will bring a new outlook for the team and it’ll be time for someone else to enhance the legacy of the All Blacks,” he said.
“My family has given me unreserved love and support over the last 16 years and I feel it’s now time to make them the sole focus.
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I thought the collective wisdom was that Hansen was tapped out on ideas?
If Foster had brought him into the fold the meltdown here would have been huge.
my feeling when i was being told was "i didn't want him anymore but i definitely don't want someone else to have him!"...i'll admit that
more critically, i thought he'd done his run as head coach, but after a bit of a break i think he probably does have some idea as an assistant, a different pair of eyes
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I thought the collective wisdom was that Hansen was tapped out on ideas?
If Foster had brought him into the fold the meltdown here would have been huge.
my feeling when i was being told was "i didn't want him anymore but i definitely don't want someone else to have him!"...i'll admit that
more critically, i thought he'd done his run as head coach, but after a bit of a break i think he probably does have some idea as an assistant, a different pair of eyes
Hansen has his cushy gig with Toyota in Japan. He's not completely out of rugby.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'd like those claiming Joseph is the better coach to at least attempt to back it up with some evidence - they can't.
4I would suggest none of us know who the best coach is, we haven't been coached by them, and to be honest, from what I have read on posts, most are looking at results only. Not a lot seem to think coaching at different levels requires usually different skills, from what I have seen most have got their knowledge from reading opinions of other posters or so called press.
I have to say I find it hard to disagree with Mariner4life about how arrogant some so called AB supporters appear to be, an awful lot seem to know a lot more about requirements of top level coaches than the people actually talking to and involved in the process of appointing coaches, a lot seem to get an awful lot of knowledge sitting on their arses in whatever part of the world they are in!
@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'd like those claiming Joseph is the better coach to at least attempt to back it up with some evidence - they can't.
4I would suggest none of us know who the best coach is, we haven't been coached by them, and to be honest, from what I have read on posts, most are looking at results only. Not a lot seem to think coaching at different levels requires usually different skills, from what I have seen most have got their knowledge from reading opinions of other posters or so called press.
I have to say I find it hard to disagree with Mariner4life about how arrogant some so called AB supporters appear to be, an awful lot seem to know a lot more about requirements of top level coaches than the people actually talking to and involved in the process of appointing coaches, a lot seem to get an awful lot of knowledge sitting on their arses in whatever part of the world they are in!
To be honest, Dan - how much do the people making the appointments really know? Who's been to spend a week inside Jamie Joseph's coaching set-up?
You don't have to go far to see some appalling coaching appointments.
Who were the experts who decided Grizz should have John Hart foisted on him?
Who sacked Wayne Smith and appointed Mitch?
Who came up with the plan to effectively interview coaching teams and ended up with Plumtree and Mooar and shutting off access to seemingly better candidates?
(The whole 1990s, was basically politicking and backstabbing and little reference to ability).
I'd go as far as to say no-one knows who will succeed/fail (not even the candidates for the position themselves) and frankly some of the margins are so thin between success and failure - that it's a coin toss. If Stephen Donald misses that kick, Graham Henry doesn't have a knighthood - he's a two time loser who in his own words "didn't know if he'd be able to live in this country".
At the end of the day, the main thing in the interview panel's favour is that all of the serious contenders are good coaches.
What I recall from my studies is that interviews in general have very little validity in determining the best candidate for a job - the rest of us can basically "Moneyball" the various coaches records and probably have as much chance of picking a winner as Mark Robinson's team.
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Indeed, the CEO buck stops there should be long gone
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/where-is-mark-robinson-nzr-ceo-accused-of-being-missing-in-action/
@Machpants there is so much irony dripping off that article there is now a puddle of it on my desk
shut your fucking mouth for once in your life David
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@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
if old mate @george33 has some sort of secret sauce i reckon this joint is going to melt down and i am here for it.
Mark Robinson: Joe you've got the job, but don't tell anyone, otherwise we're going to look like complete fluffybunnies.
Joe Schmidt: Can I tell my wife?
Mark Robinson: Aaah, yeah - as long as she promises not to tell anyone.
Joe Schmidt: Can I tell George33?
Mark Robinson: Ooh, yeah, nah, probably not. I dunno whether we could trust him to keep it to himself.
So unless George is Mrs. Schmidt, I'm not believing a word.
And even if he is Mrs. Schmidt - I'm Mr. Spitfire and shooting him down in flames!
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@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'd like those claiming Joseph is the better coach to at least attempt to back it up with some evidence - they can't.
4I would suggest none of us know who the best coach is, we haven't been coached by them, and to be honest, from what I have read on posts, most are looking at results only. Not a lot seem to think coaching at different levels requires usually different skills, from what I have seen most have got their knowledge from reading opinions of other posters or so called press.
I have to say I find it hard to disagree with Mariner4life about how arrogant some so called AB supporters appear to be, an awful lot seem to know a lot more about requirements of top level coaches than the people actually talking to and involved in the process of appointing coaches, a lot seem to get an awful lot of knowledge sitting on their arses in whatever part of the world they are in!
To be honest, Dan - how much do the people making the appointments really know? Who's been to spend a week inside Jamie Joseph's coaching set-up?
You don't have to go far to see some appalling coaching appointments.
Who were the experts who decided Grizz should have John Hart foisted on him?
Who sacked Wayne Smith and appointed Mitch?
Who came up with the plan to effectively interview coaching teams and ended up with Plumtree and Mooar and shutting off access to seemingly better candidates?
(The whole 1990s, was basically politicking and backstabbing and little reference to ability).
I'd go as far as to say no-one knows who will succeed/fail (not even the candidates for the position themselves) and frankly some of the margins are so thin between success and failure - that it's a coin toss. If Stephen Donald misses that kick, Graham Henry doesn't have a knighthood - he's a two time loser who in his own words "didn't know if he'd be able to live in this country".
At the end of the day, the main thing in the interview panel's favour is that all of the serious contenders are good coaches.
What I recall from my studies is that interviews in general have very little validity in determining the best candidate for a job - the rest of us can basically "Moneyball" the various coaches records and probably have as much chance of picking a winner as Mark Robinson's team.
@Chris-B agree who knows , but I would suggest that people who are involved with making appointments have a bloody sight more ability to find out how Japan's, Crusaders etc training camps are run etc, surely much more than than any posters on rugby forum. Of course every now and then they get it wrong, as is the case with any sporting body anywhere in world, If you read this thread having any idea of anything doesn’t stop people having opinions etc, no matter how crazy.
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@Chris-B agree who knows , but I would suggest that people who are involved with making appointments have a bloody sight more ability to find out how Japan's, Crusaders etc training camps are run etc, surely much more than than any posters on rugby forum. Of course every now and then they get it wrong, as is the case with any sporting body anywhere in world, If you read this thread having any idea of anything doesn’t stop people having opinions etc, no matter how crazy.
