It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.
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@Chris-B said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
@Crucial said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
We’re going over old ground now. Fosters best/only chance is based on completion of the job he was employed to do. That option was taken away.
Thing is - Fozzie's not employed just to win the RWC.
He should have to stand on his record at the point NZR decide to recruit - not be given the chance to pull a rabbit out of a hat at the end (a chance no other potential candidate gets).
If he'd simply won more games he would have had a chance in this process. If he was sitting there with Sir Grahams record in early-2007 he'd likely have been a shoe-in.
I think it's a good thing that the future has been clarified. And on the other side of the coin, Fozzie gets his shot at winning a RWC and I'm fully behind him. Give him what he needs to win. If he's got assistants who are going to bail (as one article I saw today suggested) then maybe they're not the guys we need anyway. It should be a privilege to be on the AB coaching staff.
For what it's worth, I think (and hope) we'll get Ryan, Leon and Holland as Razor's lead assistants. I wouldn't mind seeing Smithy or Hansen in a mentoring role. I'm not convinced we need other old guys in the core team - maybe a few losses will change my tune.
I think that's the most interesting part about Razor for me. He's most certainly employed at Super level to win the tournament, and losses to the likes of Drua are pretty quickly swept aside so long as his team is there at the business end and get it done. Test level, as you point out, is a very different kettle of fish. If Fozzie gets the job done at the RWC, does that mean previous losses, e.g. to Argentina, get swept aside because he got it done when it mattered? The answer is absolutely not, the ABs have a proud legacy and losses like that cannot be wiped from the slate the same way they can be at the lower levels. I'm interested to see how Razor responds to an environment where you just have to win every single game, and if you don't the braying for blood from the public gets louder and louder. I think NZR have taken a punt here, which I'm not opposed to at all as it's clear the ABs need a shake up, but 2024 is going to be very interesting.
@No-Quarter said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
I'm interested to see how Razor responds to an environment where you just have to win every single game, and if you don't the braying for blood from the puclic gets louder and louder. I think NZR have taken a punt here, which I'm not opposed to at all as it's clear the ABs need a shake up, but 2024 is going to be very interesting.
We really don't know how he'll go at Test level, but need to give the bloke enough time to get his feet under the table before judging him.
Huge expectation has been built up around Robertson & hope the media bashing a la Foster doesn't start if he loses 2 or 3 games in a row or people start calling for his immediate sacking if he records NZ's first Test loss against, say, Scotland - but I'm not holding my breath.
Finally, NZR need to get their act together and deal with any coaching issues privately and professionally. No-one should be repeatedly hung out to dry the way Foster was.
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@mariner4life Would have been awkward if Fozzie had applied for the job. He had the good sense not to.
I reckon Mitch would have had a fair idea....
@Chris-B said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
@mariner4life Would have been awkward if Fozzie had applied for the job. He had the good sense not to.
I reckon Mitch would have had a fair idea....
Foster intimated there had been meetings, whether he got clear feedback from that, I don't know.
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What constitutes success for the new regime? Keep Bledisloe. Win all home series, ranking?
@antipodean said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
What constitutes success for the new regime? Keep Bledisloe. Win all home series, ranking?
Direction mostly for me, but a lot of people will want to judge him purely on results and want KPI's set as they did with Foster. After his first season in charge, I think anything less than keeping the Bled, the RC & not losing at EP would cause concern for a lot of people.
Losing more than 1 game on the EOYT, being below 2 or 3 in the global rankings and losing twice to Argentina would show a distinct lack of progress for an awful lot of people and the media knives will probably be unsheathed if that happens
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@Chris-B said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
@Crucial said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
We’re going over old ground now. Fosters best/only chance is based on completion of the job he was employed to do. That option was taken away.
Thing is - Fozzie's not employed just to win the RWC.
He should have to stand on his record at the point NZR decide to recruit - not be given the chance to pull a rabbit out of a hat at the end (a chance no other potential candidate gets).
If he'd simply won more games he would have had a chance in this process. If he was sitting there with Sir Grahams record in early-2007 he'd likely have been a shoe-in.
I think it's a good thing that the future has been clarified. And on the other side of the coin, Fozzie gets his shot at winning a RWC and I'm fully behind him. Give him what he needs to win. If he's got assistants who are going to bail (as one article I saw today suggested) then maybe they're not the guys we need anyway. It should be a privilege to be on the AB coaching staff.
For what it's worth, I think (and hope) we'll get Ryan, Leon and Holland as Razor's lead assistants. I wouldn't mind seeing Smithy or Hansen in a mentoring role. I'm not convinced we need other old guys in the core team - maybe a few losses will change my tune.
I think that's the most interesting part about Razor for me. He's most certainly employed at Super level to win the tournament, and losses to the likes of Drua are pretty quickly swept aside so long as his team is there at the business end and get it done. Test level, as you point out, is a very different kettle of fish. If Fozzie gets the job done at the RWC, does that mean previous losses, e.g. to Argentina, get swept aside because he got it done when it mattered? The answer is absolutely not, the ABs have a proud legacy and losses like that cannot be wiped from the slate the same way they can be at the lower levels. I'm interested to see how Razor responds to an environment where you just have to win every single game, and if you don't the braying for blood from the public gets louder and louder. I think NZR have taken a punt here, which I'm not opposed to at all as it's clear the ABs need a shake up, but 2024 is going to be very interesting.
@No-Quarter I think if you look back over the last 30 years or so, the first year/set of tests for a new coach have always been an interesting period in terms of selection, results and fan reaction. I don’t expect next year will be too different.
Given the unprecedented speculation/attention around the future, I don’t think this timing is that surprising. It’s the nature of things in today’s age when organisations look for circuit breakers. Putting to side the poor handling of things on the last few months from an NZRU (comms, messaging, frantic behaviour), I think it’s a good decision, not so much because of who they’ve appointed but because there is certainty and when the test season starts there won’t be inane articles / questions in pressers speculating about “who, what and if”.
Not exactly the same scenario but the circuit breaker principle still applied - I remember the Bulls and Phil Jackson were copping it about the future after the Bulls first NBA finals win against the Jazz and that’s when they decided that it would be Phil’s last year and put all the speculation to bed.
Fozzie’s last dance
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With Razor as coach I suppose we’re in for a few close shaves.
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I’m happy. For no other reason than Razor is bloody infectious. He clearly cares, and he clearly resonates with his guys. He won’t make every one of us happy with his selections and his gameplan, but I don’t doubt for a second that he has the talent and drive to make this work.
I’m balls deep in the Razor camp
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I’m happy. For no other reason than Razor is bloody infectious. He clearly cares, and he clearly resonates with his guys. He won’t make every one of us happy with his selections and his gameplan, but I don’t doubt for a second that he has the talent and drive to make this work.
I’m balls deep in the Razor camp
@voodoo said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
I’m balls deep in the Razor camp
Imagery too horrible to contemplate...
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@antipodean said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
What constitutes success for the new regime? Keep Bledisloe. Win all home series, ranking?
Direction mostly for me, but a lot of people will want to judge him purely on results and want KPI's set as they did with Foster. After his first season in charge, I think anything less than keeping the Bled, the RC & not losing at EP would cause concern for a lot of people.
Losing more than 1 game on the EOYT, being below 2 or 3 in the global rankings and losing twice to Argentina would show a distinct lack of progress for an awful lot of people and the media knives will probably be unsheathed if that happens
@Victor-Meldrew For mine the Bledisloe needs to be in the display cabinet. A series win against England, with the Eden Park record intact.
I don't know what the EOYT holds, so will hold opinion there.
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@Victor-Meldrew For mine the Bledisloe needs to be in the display cabinet. A series win against England, with the Eden Park record intact.
I don't know what the EOYT holds, so will hold opinion there.
@antipodean said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
@Victor-Meldrew For mine the Bledisloe needs to be in the display cabinet. A series win against England, with the Eden Park record intact.
May not look too hard at the moment, but a close contest is really possible if Borthwick gets England moving.
I don't know what the EOYT holds, so will hold opinion there.
Yeah, it's pretty crazy to ignore the huge improvement in NH rugby we've seen in the last 3-4 years. That won't stop the criticism if he only matches Foster's record though - expectation and all that
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@voodoo said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
I’m balls deep in the Razor camp
Imagery too horrible to contemplate...
@Victor-Meldrew said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
@voodoo said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
I’m balls deep in the Razor camp
Imagery too horrible to contemplate...
And yet, you can’t stop your mind from wandering
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@antipodean said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
@Victor-Meldrew For mine the Bledisloe needs to be in the display cabinet. A series win against England, with the Eden Park record intact.
May not look too hard at the moment, but a close contest is really possible if Borthwick gets England moving.
I don't know what the EOYT holds, so will hold opinion there.
Yeah, it's pretty crazy to ignore the huge improvement in NH rugby we've seen in the last 3-4 years. That won't stop the criticism if he only matches Foster's record though - expectation and all that
@Victor-Meldrew said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
Yeah, it's pretty crazy to ignore the huge improvement in NH rugby we've seen in the last 3-4 years. That won't stop the criticism if he only matches Foster's record though - expectation and all that
It isn't the improvement of the opposition, that is a given I would have thought. It is the lack of innovation and improvement in the AB camp that has been the problem. If Razor attempts new things, and brings a fresh approach but has similar results as Foster, I honestly think he will be given some leeway. It is the stagnant nature of the current set up and the feeling of time wasted that grinds a lot of people I think.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
Yeah, it's pretty crazy to ignore the huge improvement in NH rugby we've seen in the last 3-4 years. That won't stop the criticism if he only matches Foster's record though - expectation and all that
It isn't the improvement of the opposition, that is a given I would have thought. It is the lack of innovation and improvement in the AB camp that has been the problem. If Razor attempts new things, and brings a fresh approach but has similar results as Foster, I honestly think he will be given some leeway. It is the stagnant nature of the current set up and the feeling of time wasted that grinds a lot of people I think.
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
@Victor-Meldrew said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
Yeah, it's pretty crazy to ignore the huge improvement in NH rugby we've seen in the last 3-4 years. That won't stop the criticism if he only matches Foster's record though - expectation and all that
It isn't the improvement of the opposition, that is a given I would have thought. It is the lack of innovation and improvement in the AB camp that has been the problem. If Razor attempts new things, and brings a fresh approach but has similar results as Foster, I honestly think he will be given some leeway. It is the stagnant nature of the current set up and the feeling of time wasted that grinds a lot of people I think.
I've already noticed a deliberate ferocity and directness in our forward play once Ryan joined the coaching team. What I feel we're missing is inventiveness in our backline attack (contrast with France in the 6N) and better defence.
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What constitutes success for the new regime? Keep Bledisloe. Win all home series, ranking?
@antipodean said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
What constitutes success for the new regime? Keep Bledisloe. Win all home series, ranking?
It might be Regain Bledisloe if Foz loses it this year
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@antipodean said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
What constitutes success for the new regime? Keep Bledisloe. Win all home series, ranking?
It might be Regain Bledisloe if Foz loses it this year
@Nevorian said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
@antipodean said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
What constitutes success for the new regime? Keep Bledisloe. Win all home series, ranking?
It might be Regain Bledisloe if Foz loses it this year
That's an outcome I've contemplated when I look at the return of Eddie and Australian players making an early case for selection.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
@Victor-Meldrew said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
Yeah, it's pretty crazy to ignore the huge improvement in NH rugby we've seen in the last 3-4 years. That won't stop the criticism if he only matches Foster's record though - expectation and all that
It isn't the improvement of the opposition, that is a given I would have thought. It is the lack of innovation and improvement in the AB camp that has been the problem. If Razor attempts new things, and brings a fresh approach but has similar results as Foster, I honestly think he will be given some leeway. It is the stagnant nature of the current set up and the feeling of time wasted that grinds a lot of people I think.
I've already noticed a deliberate ferocity and directness in our forward play once Ryan joined the coaching team. What I feel we're missing is inventiveness in our backline attack (contrast with France in the 6N) and better defence.
@antipodean said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
I've already noticed a deliberate ferocity and directness in our forward play once Ryan joined the coaching team. What I feel we're missing is inventiveness in our backline attack (contrast with France in the 6N) and better defence.
Yeah, there has been "go forward" since the assistants changed without a doubt. And there have been some inspired recent changes in selections. Pretty much all positive change has been forced though. It seems to me that Foster would have happily carried on with the status quo otherwise.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
Yeah, it's pretty crazy to ignore the huge improvement in NH rugby we've seen in the last 3-4 years. That won't stop the criticism if he only matches Foster's record though - expectation and all that
It isn't the improvement of the opposition, that is a given I would have thought. It is the lack of innovation and improvement in the AB camp that has been the problem. If Razor attempts new things, and brings a fresh approach but has similar results as Foster, I honestly think he will be given some leeway. It is the stagnant nature of the current set up and the feeling of time wasted that grinds a lot of people I think.
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
@Victor-Meldrew said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
Yeah, it's pretty crazy to ignore the huge improvement in NH rugby we've seen in the last 3-4 years. That won't stop the criticism if he only matches Foster's record though - expectation and all that
It isn't the improvement of the opposition, that is a given I would have thought. It is the lack of innovation and improvement in the AB camp that has been the problem. If Razor attempts new things, and brings a fresh approach but has similar results as Foster, I honestly think he will be given some leeway. It is the stagnant nature of the current set up and the feeling of time wasted that grinds a lot of people I think.
Innovation and leeway won't matter a jot if the results aren't way better than Foster's bearing in mind the huge expectation that has been set. The latter was pilloried for being beaten by Argentina (a RWC semi-finalist) and I can't see that changing if Robertson loses to Scotland - which based on current form isn't unlikely.
It's up to NZR to think forward and manage this sort of stuff, and as I've said, I hope they handle it better than they did with Foster.
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@antipodean said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
I've already noticed a deliberate ferocity and directness in our forward play once Ryan joined the coaching team. What I feel we're missing is inventiveness in our backline attack (contrast with France in the 6N) and better defence.
Yeah, there has been "go forward" since the assistants changed without a doubt. And there have been some inspired recent changes in selections. Pretty much all positive change has been forced though. It seems to me that Foster would have happily carried on with the status quo otherwise.
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
Yeah, there has been "go forward" since the assistants changed without a doubt.
It was as patchy as fuck though. The forwards performance in the 2nd half of the England EOYT game was probably worse than it was against Ireland and France the year before Ryan came in. If the new coaching set-up can get the consistency sorted out and improve composure under pressure that would be a solid start.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
@Victor-Meldrew said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
Yeah, it's pretty crazy to ignore the huge improvement in NH rugby we've seen in the last 3-4 years. That won't stop the criticism if he only matches Foster's record though - expectation and all that
It isn't the improvement of the opposition, that is a given I would have thought. It is the lack of innovation and improvement in the AB camp that has been the problem. If Razor attempts new things, and brings a fresh approach but has similar results as Foster, I honestly think he will be given some leeway. It is the stagnant nature of the current set up and the feeling of time wasted that grinds a lot of people I think.
Innovation and leeway won't matter a jot if the results aren't way better than Foster's bearing in mind the huge expectation that has been set. The latter was pilloried for being beaten by Argentina (a RWC semi-finalist) and I can't see that changing if Robertson loses to Scotland - which based on current form isn't unlikely.
It's up to NZR to think forward and manage this sort of stuff, and as I've said, I hope they handle it better than they did with Foster.
@Victor-Meldrew said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
Innovation and leeway won't matter a jot if the results aren't way better than Foster's bearing in mind the huge expectation that has been set. The latter was pilloried for being beaten by Argentina (a RWC semi-finalist) and I can't see that changing if Robertson loses to Scotland - which based on current form isn't unlikely.
It's up to NZR to think forward and manage this sort of stuff, and as I've said, I hope they handle it better than they did with Foster.
You are being a bit harsh on the average fan I think. It was the nature of the defeat that ranks. A complete headless chook, limp performance that was frankly, embarrassing. If the ABs had played well but lost to a better team, do you really think the NZ fans wouldn't have been so despondent? I take it you are of advanced years:beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes: What do NZ fans say about the 1971 Lions? Other teams that have beaten the ABs fair and square? They talk about those teams in awe.
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@No-Quarter I think if you look back over the last 30 years or so, the first year/set of tests for a new coach have always been an interesting period in terms of selection, results and fan reaction. I don’t expect next year will be too different.
Given the unprecedented speculation/attention around the future, I don’t think this timing is that surprising. It’s the nature of things in today’s age when organisations look for circuit breakers. Putting to side the poor handling of things on the last few months from an NZRU (comms, messaging, frantic behaviour), I think it’s a good decision, not so much because of who they’ve appointed but because there is certainty and when the test season starts there won’t be inane articles / questions in pressers speculating about “who, what and if”.
Not exactly the same scenario but the circuit breaker principle still applied - I remember the Bulls and Phil Jackson were copping it about the future after the Bulls first NBA finals win against the Jazz and that’s when they decided that it would be Phil’s last year and put all the speculation to bed.
Fozzie’s last dance
@ACT-Crusader said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
@No-Quarter I think if you look back over the last 30 years or so, the first year/set of tests for a new coach have always been an interesting period in terms of selection, results and fan reaction. I don’t expect next year will be too different.
Given the unprecedented speculation/attention around the future, I don’t think this timing is that surprising. It’s the nature of things in today’s age when organisations look for circuit breakers. Putting to side the poor handling of things on the last few months from an NZRU (comms, messaging, frantic behaviour), I think it’s a good decision, not so much because of who they’ve appointed but because there is certainty and when the test season starts there won’t be inane articles / questions in pressers speculating about “who, what and if”.
Not exactly the same scenario but the circuit breaker principle still applied - I remember the Bulls and Phil Jackson were copping it about the future after the Bulls first NBA finals win against the Jazz and that’s when they decided that it would be Phil’s last year and put all the speculation to bed.
Fozzie’s last dance
Good post. But I'd add Foster might find another coaching role (or mentoring?) somewhere. He seems to have friends. I just have no idea how much energy he'd have for another rugby contract after the RWC.
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@antipodean said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
What constitutes success for the new regime? Keep Bledisloe. Win all home series, ranking?
Direction mostly for me, but a lot of people will want to judge him purely on results and want KPI's set as they did with Foster. After his first season in charge, I think anything less than keeping the Bled, the RC & not losing at EP would cause concern for a lot of people.
Losing more than 1 game on the EOYT, being below 2 or 3 in the global rankings and losing twice to Argentina would show a distinct lack of progress for an awful lot of people and the media knives will probably be unsheathed if that happens
@Victor-Meldrew said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
@antipodean said in It’s Razor. Robertson New All Blacks coach.:
What constitutes success for the new regime? Keep Bledisloe. Win all home series, ranking?
Direction mostly for me, but a lot of people will want to judge him purely on results and want KPI's set as they did with Foster. After his first season in charge, I think anything less than keeping the Bled, the RC & not losing at EP would cause concern for a lot of people.
Losing more than 1 game on the EOYT, being below 2 or 3 in the global rankings and losing twice to Argentina would show a distinct lack of progress for an awful lot of people and the media knives will probably be unsheathed if that happens
This sounds reasonable but a little demanding to me.
For example, I think top 3 at least (top 2 is a nice but hard to have, we currently don't look like a 2 or 3 IMO), S Africa are competitive, and otherwise I'd mostly agree but do you know what the 2024 EOYT will be?
Given the strength of Ireland France and England (and Scotland?) I'd say only losing once on an EOYT is a bit hard but apparently England tour NZ in 2024 (https://www.planetrugby.com/news/internationals-england-set-to-tour-new-zealand-in-july-2024-report) so I am not sure what the 2024 EOYT will be...Losing to Italy or Japan would probably be a black mark (and maybe Scotland?)
