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Just following on from @MajorRage post in the NZ Politics thread and trying to make sense of this stuff.....
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It's the civil rights fight of this generational group - just like gay rights, apartheid etc. Previous battles won - freedom of speech, equality under the law. women's rights - are likely seen as old-hat and less important to respect.
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There's a belief that as the battle on women's right has largely been won, sex doesn't actually matter - people should be able to choose
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Science and facts are less important than feelings as he former are a bit dry, boring - and unemotional. We can get a bigger emotional hit by interacting emotionally online with like-minded people. And an even bigger hit when we meet up to protest in real-life.
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And just as people can't get directly physically hurt online, this poss. translates into thinking intimidation and paint-throwing/damage to property is OK
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In the past, people's values and moral were rooted in day-day experiences which earlier generation took online when social media appeared. Are later generations increasingly taking their online morals and values into real-life? Does this explain the violence and groupthink?
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Media, business & politicians are targeting this group or generation (which cuts across traditional political groupings) for click-revenue, marketing opportunities and votes. (Follow the money)
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Most of these beliefs - like many who espouse them - are nonsensical and collapse when facing reality - as we've seen in other countries, sports and institutions when the harms they cause become really apparent.
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@Victor-Meldrew I'd add the connection of needing something to believe in. The vast majority of humans need a belief system in their lives. The rise in wokeness coincides with the lesser belief in religion. The similarities between religion and wokeness are quite scary.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Victor-Meldrew I'd add the connection of needing something to believe in. The vast majority of humans need a belief system in their lives. The rise in wokeness coincides with the lesser belief in religion. The similarities between religion and wokeness are quite scary.
Judeo-Christian societal values post the Reformation have led to a huge increase in living standards, and arguably civilisation.
Now that these are deeply unfashionable one has to wonder what will replace them.
The road to perdition is paved with wokeness?
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One thing I was thinking about when it comes to people making these grandiose statements in support of the trans movement, while neglecting to talk about the really serious issues in society (e.g. poverty, domestic violence, increasing crime rates etc) is it gives them a great way of signaling how much more virtuous they are than everybody else. Everybody knows things like people living in poverty is a bad thing, so stating that for the world to see doesn't make them more virtuous than anyone else. So they find more and more silly things to prove it - e.g. "trans women are women!! see, you didn't think about that did you? Not as virtuous as I am are you? do better bigot!". Which leads us to focusing on more and more silly things rather than talking about actually trying to improve the lives of people that are doing it toughest.
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I think the problem is that there doesn’t seem to be any patience for the ‘movement’ to be discussed and integrated alongside other societal values. There are no places for those with more traditional values to express a fair view.
Personally, for example, I’m relatively happy for trans people to use female toilets - they are generally single use cubicles and I’m happy for those who want to live as women doing so. There are laws that can be used if there is intimidation or violence carried out by trans people against females.
On the other hand though, trans people shouldn’t be in female prisons. Equally, neither competing in female sports events. If there is sufficient numbers, let’s have trans sports classes and events (and wings in prisons). I’d be happy to celebrate the achievements of a trans person if they were competing against people in a similar boat (e.g., went through puberty, on hormone treatment).
The stuff about kids and being encouraged to transition is mad and should be discussed as such.
However, there aren’t many places where we can have real discussion about it without huge consequences. I wouldn’t dream of talking about it at work - I’d likely be putting my career in jeopardy.
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Well I think it's quite easy for a guy to say "Well as a man I don't have a problem with men being in woman's bathrooms, what's the big deal??".
The counter there is that even in this modern, enlightened age a huge number of woman suffered from some form of sexual abuse in their lifetime.
So for them to be forced in bathrooms and changing rooms (where you are more vulnerable than normal) to share them with trans-woman who obviously still have all their male bits and physique - well yeah, I could see how that would be disturbing and uncomfortable.
Also on another note is it considered transphobic to snigger at the failed attempts of a trans-man to use the urinal??
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When you see something like like, you wonder how there is any argument about it.
The thing about this whole issue now is that there is so much “factual” stuff out there, from both sides of the argument that just does not bear any scrutiny and there is seemingly no accountability for any of this. No wonder a serious and balanced discussion appears unobtainable.
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@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
When you see something like like, you wonder how there is any argument about it.
The thing about this whole issue now is that there is so much “factual” stuff out there, from both sides of the argument that just does not bear any scrutiny and there is seemingly no accountability for any of this. No wonder a serious and balanced discussion appears unobtainable.
The problem is distinguishing between a serious person with gender disphoria and a piss taker.
And a piss taker is not likely to have anything other than bad intentions. I get the argument that it's unfair to throw genuine trans in, but the ability to distinguish is as grey as it could be.
I don't have any time for the trans category. Just opens up another category for men to win olympic golds when they aren't good enough to win in the mens category. I kind of take the tough shit approach, which is harsh, but I see little option.
The dedication is takes to be top top top of these fields is like nothing else. I struggle to see how you can be a professional athlete & be / have gone through transition. Which lets face it, is little more than a whole bunch of drugs (since when have drugs, of any kind, been good for sports) and a couple of hours under the knife.
As I've said plenty of times before, the worst part of this whole thing is that it's the activists, not the actual trans community, causing all this shit.
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@MajorRage great post and 100% agree, and when comes to sport the 'tough shit' approach is not even harsh! It's what the other 99.99% of the population have to put up with! Since when was competing at the top level a "right" ? People have really lost sight of what having rights even means. That's so far from a right it's not even funny, if you're a biological male and you aren't good enough to play at the top level against other men, tough shit, play at the lower levels like the rest of us. The solution is so simple it's absurd that there's even a discussion, let alone males actually dominating females occurring in front of us.
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@gt12 said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
I think the problem is that there doesn’t seem to be any patience for the ‘movement’ to be discussed and integrated alongside other societal values. There are no places for those with more traditional values to express a fair view.
Personally, for example, I’m relatively happy for trans people to use female toilets - they are generally single use cubicles and I’m happy for those who want to live as women doing so. There are laws that can be used if there is intimidation or violence carried out by trans people against females.
On the other hand though, trans people shouldn’t be in female prisons. Equally, neither competing in female sports events. If there is sufficient numbers, let’s have trans sports classes and events (and wings in prisons). I’d be happy to celebrate the achievements of a trans person if they were competing against people in a similar boat (e.g., went through puberty, on hormone treatment).
The stuff about kids and being encouraged to transition is mad and should be discussed as such.
However, there aren’t many places where we can have real discussion about it without huge consequences. I wouldn’t dream of talking about it at work - I’d likely be putting my career in jeopardy.
The bathroom stuff is crazy though - I know someone that was going to AUT in Auckland a few years ago, and one day when she was going to the bathroom they were suddenly changed to "male", "disabled", and "all genders". No female bathroom, her only option was to use the all gender bathroom. Just bananas. Wanting female only spaces is not a big ask at all, and there has to be a high bar for someone born a male to be entering those spaces. Simply self-id'ing as a female is not even close to hitting that bar.
Otherwise agree with your post though, and I'm the same, couldn't openly discuss any of this at work for fear of the radicals in HR getting wind of it.
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I say open it up. Women are enabling this BS so let them deal with the consequences.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
I say open it up. Women are enabling this BS so let them deal with the consequences.
I don't know of a single female athlete who advocates for their fair participation to be ruined. Nor can I imagine there's a woman in a gaol who advocates for a male rapist to suddenly avail himself of a captive audience.
The few women that are trying to be inclusive don't believe it will impact them at all.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
I say open it up. Women are enabling this BS so let them deal with the consequences.
It’s mostly young women and mostly overducated childless foolish ones at that. Women with a few years in the real world and experience dealing with the occasional creep our sex serves up to them aren’t supporting this .
I see Shaleel Lal got young NZer of the year for services to misogyny and narcissism. Ffs .
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Good on that man! Shows the stupidity for what it is.
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@voodoo said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Shit, I’m a shoe in for a medal if I change sexes and compete.
Where’s my razor ?
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@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Good on that man! Shows the stupidity for what it is.
Absolute crack-up eh?
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
