All Blacks 2023
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2023:
I hope they go with Stevenson, but it would be considered a massive call if history is to go by anything to select a brand new fullback for a RWC campaign. This isn’t the wing (or centre), it’s one of our most critical positions in the way the ABs play.
Do they go back to Mo’unga and DMac starting? They’ve started 7 tests together (3x Oz, Italy USA, Fiji, Tonga) and haven’t lost but the opposition suggests it hasn’t been their thinking in the ‘big’ tests.
Pity we can't just clone Jordie.
But, I'm not convinced he's more crucial at 2nd five than at fullback.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2023:
I hope they go with Stevenson, but it would be considered a massive call if history is to go by anything to select a brand new fullback for a RWC campaign. This isn’t the wing (or centre), it’s one of our most critical positions in the way the ABs play.
Do they go back to Mo’unga and DMac starting? They’ve started 7 tests together (3x Oz, Italy USA, Fiji, Tonga) and haven’t lost but the opposition suggests it hasn’t been their thinking in the ‘big’ tests.
Pity we can't just clone Jordie.
But, I'm not convinced he's more crucial at 2nd five than at fullback.
What's your reasoning?
To me Jordie is far more suited to 12 + we have more depth at fullback than 12.
While Jordie is great under the high ball to me he wasn't quick enough to make his own breaks at fullback and wasn't a fullback that set up other players in attack. To me his size and direct game is more effective and a better decision maker in the confined spaces of midfield and closer to the ruck
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Jordie at fullback is a defensive move, I see the merit, but I don't see us beating the top sides with a defensive mindset. We're gonna need to throw caution to the wind at this RWC, so players like Jordan are going to be critical to our chances.
@Chris-B was that the game Bridge had a shocker under the high ball? If so I agree with your assessment, I think the plan was for Bridge and Jordie to field the kicks and set Jordan loose from the back to counter that tactic. I think I remember them talking about selecting Bridge for that exact reason, but then Bridge dropped one early and lost all confidence, so Jordie was charging around trying to catch everything.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2023:
I hope they go with Stevenson, but it would be considered a massive call if history is to go by anything to select a brand new fullback for a RWC campaign. This isn’t the wing (or centre), it’s one of our most critical positions in the way the ABs play.
Do they go back to Mo’unga and DMac starting? They’ve started 7 tests together (3x Oz, Italy USA, Fiji, Tonga) and haven’t lost but the opposition suggests it hasn’t been their thinking in the ‘big’ tests.
Pity we can't just clone Jordie.
But, I'm not convinced he's more crucial at 2nd five than at fullback.
What's your reasoning?
To me Jordie is far more suited to 12 + we have more depth at fullback than 12.
While Jordie is great under the high ball to me he wasn't quick enough to make his own breaks at fullback and wasn't a fullback that set up other players in attack. To me his size and direct game is more effective and a better decision maker in the confined spaces of midfield and closer to the ruck
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@KiwiMurph I'm not particularly concerned about depth at fullback.
Who is the first choice?
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@KiwiMurph I'm not particularly concerned about depth at fullback.
Who is the first choice?
Pick a Tasmanian, any Tasmanian.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@KiwiMurph I'm not particularly concerned about depth at fullback.
Who is the first choice?
Pick a Tasmanian, any Tasmanian.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@KiwiMurph I'm not particularly concerned about depth at fullback.
Who is the first choice?
Pick a Tasmanian, any Tasmanian.
That name is taken across the ditch. Try out Tasmanlander.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
Carlos also wants Barrett and DMac in the 23, the latter starting at fullback.
And there every chance they will be, as Carlos says they will need some experience when things get tight. See I'm one that doesn't see Jordan as an option at 15, mainly because the last test I saw him play, (on wing I know) he had no interest in taking high balls, and that worries the f* out of me at test level**. But almost guarantee that RMo, DMac and BB will go to WC, in whatever position or whatever I not sure though at this satge of season I think RMo is starting 10, and I say that thinking that from what I have seen we will not be running a 10 who will be in top 2-3 in world.
What are you talking about? Avoiding high balls? BS! He could have been more accurate in some instances for sure but avoiding high balls? Nope.
Mate I only saying the last time I saw him in a test match, was at Wellington against Ireland, and he looked to have no interest at all, he scored one great try, but almost seemed not interested for the other 79.5 minutes of game. I actually wondered if he was injured,, I a Jordan fan, but had to agree with fella behind me who noticed it too. I must admit I haven't rewatched game on tv to see if anything stood out there, but at game I was buggered if I know what seemed to be wrong. As I said I like the bugger as a player, but think he more suited to wing. I also think we forget how highly all the coaches and players seem to regard players in 15 who can call the shots and let 10 know whats they see in gaps etc.
Do you remember when we played South Africa in 2022 and we dropped a whole heap of defensive high balls?
I told y'all I didn't think Jordan dropped any - except very early he caught one, took two steps and lost the ball in contact. You told me I hadn't watched the game closely enough.
I went back and re-watched - and got interrupted so missed 10minutes or so, but what was evident was Jordie was catching (or dropping) almost everything on the right hand side.
Will was leaving them to Jordie.
Since I haven't noticed Will struggling under the high ball for the Crusaders, I'm inclined to think this is tactical - to have probably our best broken field runner available to receive the pass infield rather than making the pass infield.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
Carlos also wants Barrett and DMac in the 23, the latter starting at fullback.
And there every chance they will be, as Carlos says they will need some experience when things get tight. See I'm one that doesn't see Jordan as an option at 15, mainly because the last test I saw him play, (on wing I know) he had no interest in taking high balls, and that worries the f* out of me at test level**. But almost guarantee that RMo, DMac and BB will go to WC, in whatever position or whatever I not sure though at this satge of season I think RMo is starting 10, and I say that thinking that from what I have seen we will not be running a 10 who will be in top 2-3 in world.
What are you talking about? Avoiding high balls? BS! He could have been more accurate in some instances for sure but avoiding high balls? Nope.
Mate I only saying the last time I saw him in a test match, was at Wellington against Ireland, and he looked to have no interest at all, he scored one great try, but almost seemed not interested for the other 79.5 minutes of game. I actually wondered if he was injured,, I a Jordan fan, but had to agree with fella behind me who noticed it too. I must admit I haven't rewatched game on tv to see if anything stood out there, but at game I was buggered if I know what seemed to be wrong. As I said I like the bugger as a player, but think he more suited to wing. I also think we forget how highly all the coaches and players seem to regard players in 15 who can call the shots and let 10 know whats they see in gaps etc.
Do you remember when we played South Africa in 2022 and we dropped a whole heap of defensive high balls?
I told y'all I didn't think Jordan dropped any - except very early he caught one, took two steps and lost the ball in contact. You told me I hadn't watched the game closely enough.
I went back and re-watched - and got interrupted so missed 10minutes or so, but what was evident was Jordie was catching (or dropping) almost everything on the right hand side.
Will was leaving them to Jordie.
Since I haven't noticed Will struggling under the high ball for the Crusaders, I'm inclined to think this is tactical - to have probably our best broken field runner available to receive the pass infield rather than making the pass infield.
Mate read what I said, I said last test I was at and saw him play. Also I a Jordan fan, though do prefer him at 14, not knocking his ability, just the day where he looked completely uninterested, and could of been off colour or anything.
I can't comment on him for All Blacks 2023 as I haven't seen him play this year. -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
Carlos also wants Barrett and DMac in the 23, the latter starting at fullback.
And there every chance they will be, as Carlos says they will need some experience when things get tight. See I'm one that doesn't see Jordan as an option at 15, mainly because the last test I saw him play, (on wing I know) he had no interest in taking high balls, and that worries the f* out of me at test level**. But almost guarantee that RMo, DMac and BB will go to WC, in whatever position or whatever I not sure though at this satge of season I think RMo is starting 10, and I say that thinking that from what I have seen we will not be running a 10 who will be in top 2-3 in world.
What are you talking about? Avoiding high balls? BS! He could have been more accurate in some instances for sure but avoiding high balls? Nope.
Mate I only saying the last time I saw him in a test match, was at Wellington against Ireland, and he looked to have no interest at all, he scored one great try, but almost seemed not interested for the other 79.5 minutes of game. I actually wondered if he was injured,, I a Jordan fan, but had to agree with fella behind me who noticed it too. I must admit I haven't rewatched game on tv to see if anything stood out there, but at game I was buggered if I know what seemed to be wrong. As I said I like the bugger as a player, but think he more suited to wing. I also think we forget how highly all the coaches and players seem to regard players in 15 who can call the shots and let 10 know whats they see in gaps etc.
Do you remember when we played South Africa in 2022 and we dropped a whole heap of defensive high balls?
I told y'all I didn't think Jordan dropped any - except very early he caught one, took two steps and lost the ball in contact. You told me I hadn't watched the game closely enough.
I went back and re-watched - and got interrupted so missed 10minutes or so, but what was evident was Jordie was catching (or dropping) almost everything on the right hand side.
Will was leaving them to Jordie.
Since I haven't noticed Will struggling under the high ball for the Crusaders, I'm inclined to think this is tactical - to have probably our best broken field runner available to receive the pass infield rather than making the pass infield.
Mate read what I said, I said last test I was at and saw him play. Also I a Jordan fan, though do prefer him at 14, not knocking his ability, just the day where he looked completely uninterested, and could of been off colour or anything.
I can't comment on him for All Blacks 2023 as I haven't seen him play this year.@Dan54 I read what you said. You've said it before.
I provided a likely explanation for why he's not rushing to catch the high balls - since they're apparently not bouncing loose all over the park.
As I've also pointed out before - the ESPN stats for that game show Jordan was way more involved than Sevu (or the Irish wings - or a number of other backs) - more runs, more passes, more running metres, more tackles (actually the Irish wings made more tackles). A very rough measure, but he looks to have been busy.
https://www.espn.com/rugby/playerstats?gameId=595444&league=289234
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@Dan54 I read what you said. You've said it before.
I provided a likely explanation for why he's not rushing to catch the high balls - since they're apparently not bouncing loose all over the park.
As I've also pointed out before - the ESPN stats for that game show Jordan was way more involved than Sevu (or the Irish wings - or a number of other backs) - more runs, more passes, more running metres, more tackles (actually the Irish wings made more tackles). A very rough measure, but he looks to have been busy.
https://www.espn.com/rugby/playerstats?gameId=595444&league=289234
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 I read what you said. You've said it before.
I provided a likely explanation for why he's not rushing to catch the high balls - since they're apparently not bouncing loose all over the park.
As I've also pointed out before - the ESPN stats for that game show Jordan was way more involved than Sevu (or the Irish wings - or a number of other backs) - more runs, more passes, more running metres, more tackles (actually the Irish wings made more tackles). A very rough measure, but he looks to have been busy.
https://www.espn.com/rugby/playerstats?gameId=595444&league=289234
Fair enough mate, I see what you saying. And I have never really read ESPN stats to be honest,. As I said it was something that stuck out in that game, and I still wonder if he was crook or something, his whole body language just looked like he was not interested, or really trying. Will repeat I a fan of him , but still thing 14 is his best position.. Just my opinion, of his play,
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 I read what you said. You've said it before.
I provided a likely explanation for why he's not rushing to catch the high balls - since they're apparently not bouncing loose all over the park.
As I've also pointed out before - the ESPN stats for that game show Jordan was way more involved than Sevu (or the Irish wings - or a number of other backs) - more runs, more passes, more running metres, more tackles (actually the Irish wings made more tackles). A very rough measure, but he looks to have been busy.
https://www.espn.com/rugby/playerstats?gameId=595444&league=289234
Fair enough mate, I see what you saying. And I have never really read ESPN stats to be honest,. As I said it was something that stuck out in that game, and I still wonder if he was crook or something, his whole body language just looked like he was not interested, or really trying. Will repeat I a fan of him , but still thing 14 is his best position.. Just my opinion, of his play,
@Dan54 I'd be happy keeping him on the wing until after this year's RWC - because it's very late to change now. But, if we're playing Jordie at 12 then there's question marks over whomever plays at 15. (For now, I'm expecting it will be Beauden).
But, it shouldn't be forgotten that Will was last year's Super rugby player of the year, playing fullback.
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@Dan54 I'd be happy keeping him on the wing until after this year's RWC - because it's very late to change now. But, if we're playing Jordie at 12 then there's question marks over whomever plays at 15. (For now, I'm expecting it will be Beauden).
But, it shouldn't be forgotten that Will was last year's Super rugby player of the year, playing fullback.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 I'd be happy keeping him on the wing until after this year's RWC - because it's very late to change now. But, if we're playing Jordie at 12 then there's question marks over whomever plays at 15. (For now, I'm expecting it will be Beauden).
But, it shouldn't be forgotten that Will was last year's Super rugby player of the year, playing fullback.
the last couple of pages just fucking rams home what i hate about current thinking in NZ rugby.
Is he a wing or a fullback? Is he a 10 or a fullback? is he a fullback or a 12? is he a wing or a centre?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 I'd be happy keeping him on the wing until after this year's RWC - because it's very late to change now. But, if we're playing Jordie at 12 then there's question marks over whomever plays at 15. (For now, I'm expecting it will be Beauden).
But, it shouldn't be forgotten that Will was last year's Super rugby player of the year, playing fullback.
the last couple of pages just fucking rams home what i hate about current thinking in NZ rugby.
Is he a wing or a fullback? Is he a 10 or a fullback? is he a fullback or a 12? is he a wing or a centre?
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@Dan54 I'd be happy keeping him on the wing until after this year's RWC - because it's very late to change now. But, if we're playing Jordie at 12 then there's question marks over whomever plays at 15. (For now, I'm expecting it will be Beauden).
But, it shouldn't be forgotten that Will was last year's Super rugby player of the year, playing fullback.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 I'd be happy keeping him on the wing until after this year's RWC - because it's very late to change now. But, if we're playing Jordie at 12 then there's question marks over whomever plays at 15. (For now, I'm expecting it will be Beauden).
But, it shouldn't be forgotten that Will was last year's Super rugby player of the year, playing fullback.
It comes down to tactics though doesn't it? If you want a big clearing boot at the back to clean up then Stevenson and Jordie offer the most in that regard.
Do you want the fullback to run it back? (DMac, BB, Jordan)
Do you want a high ball taker that feeds to a wing? (JB, Stevenson)
The aspect of 15 play that we aren't talking about is the fullback joining the line from midfield out. BB, DMac (and to an extent JB) will often join in as a second playmaker option but i still like the basics of a fullback with acceleration and vision to steam in from behind the play on a line to a weak spot. That one is probably Jordan and possibly DMac. Stevenson tends to join wide but that could be adjusted.
Bring back Cully. -
@mariner4life I couldn't agree more! Extends into the forwards as well.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life I couldn't agree more! Extends into the forwards as well.
there is a very real chance we end up with 4 opensides and three 10s in the 23.
#balance
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life I couldn't agree more! Extends into the forwards as well.
there is a very real chance we end up with 4 opensides and three 10s in the 23.
#balance
@mariner4life Four opensides and four fullbacks.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life I couldn't agree more! Extends into the forwards as well.
there is a very real chance we end up with 4 opensides and three 10s in the 23.
#balance
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life I couldn't agree more! Extends into the forwards as well.
there is a very real chance we end up with 4 opensides and three 10s in the 23.
#balance
It's nothing new in NZ or in fact rugby anywhere with players moving around. Hell for years we had Goldie Wilson wing/fullback, Mils Muliana 15/13, Ben Smith etc etc. Look at any team, right or wrong they move players to where they need them, Farrell 10-12 Itoje 5-6 in England, , Petaia etc in Aus, Pocock played 7/8 etc. Steve Larkham played 10,12 and 15.
Not saying if it should happen, only saying it's not new and something that happens all over the place, Seems a lot of teams like starting young centres etc on wing, and also 10s at 15. As I say don't know if it good or bad etc, just seems what some coaches like. -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 I'd be happy keeping him on the wing until after this year's RWC - because it's very late to change now. But, if we're playing Jordie at 12 then there's question marks over whomever plays at 15. (For now, I'm expecting it will be Beauden).
But, it shouldn't be forgotten that Will was last year's Super rugby player of the year, playing fullback.
It comes down to tactics though doesn't it? If you want a big clearing boot at the back to clean up then Stevenson and Jordie offer the most in that regard.
Do you want the fullback to run it back? (DMac, BB, Jordan)
Do you want a high ball taker that feeds to a wing? (JB, Stevenson)
The aspect of 15 play that we aren't talking about is the fullback joining the line from midfield out. BB, DMac (and to an extent JB) will often join in as a second playmaker option but i still like the basics of a fullback with acceleration and vision to steam in from behind the play on a line to a weak spot. That one is probably Jordan and possibly DMac. Stevenson tends to join wide but that could be adjusted.
Bring back Cully.@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Do you want a high ball taker that feeds to a wing?
for me we need a back three that is most capable under the high ball, the likes of BB, WJ, CC & SS seem to fit the bill IMO.
All good atatcking players, but strong under the high ball, because we know other teams will target us there, although with a back three with that attack, they may not be so keen to do that, menaing they need to run it more, or simply trust thier chase defence.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life I couldn't agree more! Extends into the forwards as well.
there is a very real chance we end up with 4 opensides and three 10s in the 23.
#balance
It's nothing new in NZ or in fact rugby anywhere with players moving around. Hell for years we had Goldie Wilson wing/fullback, Mils Muliana 15/13, Ben Smith etc etc. Look at any team, right or wrong they move players to where they need them, Farrell 10-12 Itoje 5-6 in England, , Petaia etc in Aus, Pocock played 7/8 etc. Steve Larkham played 10,12 and 15.
Not saying if it should happen, only saying it's not new and something that happens all over the place, Seems a lot of teams like starting young centres etc on wing, and also 10s at 15. As I say don't know if it good or bad etc, just seems what some coaches like.@Dan54 i think the difference is those kinds of selections can work if you change your game plan accordingly, so the idea of having a fullback on the right wing is at least a response to teams box kicking more when on the left side of the field, often if they dont have as strong a left to right pass so cant launch as well from that side....SA did that a lot over the years when we has jane, NMS and smith play there, they do that less but we still often put a full back at 14
same if you select multiple open sides, you need to have a game plan that compliments them....rather than just taking form 7's and telling them to play like a 6 or 8 and then being surprised when it doesnt work
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@Dan54 i think the difference is those kinds of selections can work if you change your game plan accordingly, so the idea of having a fullback on the right wing is at least a response to teams box kicking more when on the left side of the field, often if they dont have as strong a left to right pass so cant launch as well from that side....SA did that a lot over the years when we has jane, NMS and smith play there, they do that less but we still often put a full back at 14
same if you select multiple open sides, you need to have a game plan that compliments them....rather than just taking form 7's and telling them to play like a 6 or 8 and then being surprised when it doesnt work
@Kiwiwomble Yep mate, but often it's just to fit the best players on field, and to be honest whoever swaps between 14-15 shouldn't need a change of plan really. Funnily enough I always reckoned Wallabies stuffed up by not playing Folau at 14 though, as I always thought it suited his skills, or lack of them, and could still use his abailty under high ball by him dropping back etc.
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@Kiwiwomble Yep mate, but often it's just to fit the best players on field, and to be honest whoever swaps between 14-15 shouldn't need a change of plan really. Funnily enough I always reckoned Wallabies stuffed up by not playing Folau at 14 though, as I always thought it suited his skills, or lack of them, and could still use his abailty under high ball by him dropping back etc.
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
...... but often it's just to fit the best players on field
and this is where i struggle, im a firm believer in the old "champion team will beat a team of champions" adage, i would happily have the 2nd best player on the field if they were a better fit to the player around them
you know what i mean? no point having someone that is the world's best cross field kicker...if you have the world's best bulldozer on the wing...whos not the best at catching a cross field kick, or a 10 that is unmatched at kicking for touch...if you have a shit lineout
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@Dan54 i think the difference is those kinds of selections can work if you change your game plan accordingly, so the idea of having a fullback on the right wing is at least a response to teams box kicking more when on the left side of the field, often if they dont have as strong a left to right pass so cant launch as well from that side....SA did that a lot over the years when we has jane, NMS and smith play there, they do that less but we still often put a full back at 14
same if you select multiple open sides, you need to have a game plan that compliments them....rather than just taking form 7's and telling them to play like a 6 or 8 and then being surprised when it doesnt work
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 i think the difference is those kinds of selections can work if you change your game plan accordingly, so the idea of having a fullback on the right wing is at least a response to teams box kicking more when on the left side of the field, often if they dont have as strong a left to right pass so cant launch as well from that side....SA did that a lot over the years when we has jane, NMS and smith play there, they do that less but we still often put a full back at 14
same if you select multiple open sides, you need to have a game plan that compliments them....rather than just taking form 7's and telling them to play like a 6 or 8 and then being surprised when it doesnt work
Agree. A possible tactic is to have loosies that cover the ground and not contest high kicks but wait for the collect and smash the catcher with loosies contesting the ensuing breakdown.
Could be seen as easy metres from the opposition but we would be in a better position after a turnover than after a kick collect.
