All Blacks 2023
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 i think the difference is those kinds of selections can work if you change your game plan accordingly, so the idea of having a fullback on the right wing is at least a response to teams box kicking more when on the left side of the field, often if they dont have as strong a left to right pass so cant launch as well from that side....SA did that a lot over the years when we has jane, NMS and smith play there, they do that less but we still often put a full back at 14
same if you select multiple open sides, you need to have a game plan that compliments them....rather than just taking form 7's and telling them to play like a 6 or 8 and then being surprised when it doesnt work
Agree. A possible tactic is to have loosies that cover the ground and not contest high kicks but wait for the collect and smash the catcher with loosies contesting the ensuing breakdown.
Could be seen as easy metres from the opposition but we would be in a better position after a turnover than after a kick collect.@Crucial great example, if you have your outside and tight forwards in a more traditional line following up you loosies then you could allow them to get ahead of the line, the counter ruck could put real pressure on a team
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Do you want a high ball taker that feeds to a wing?
for me we need a back three that is most capable under the high ball, the likes of BB, WJ, CC & SS seem to fit the bill IMO.
All good atatcking players, but strong under the high ball, because we know other teams will target us there, although with a back three with that attack, they may not be so keen to do that, menaing they need to run it more, or simply trust thier chase defence.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Do you want a high ball taker that feeds to a wing?
for me we need a back three that is most capable under the high ball, the likes of BB, WJ, CC & SS seem to fit the bill IMO.
All good atatcking players, but strong under the high ball, because we know other teams will target us there, although with a back three with that attack, they may not be so keen to do that, menaing they need to run it more, or simply trust thier chase defence.
That's why I don't discount the idea of Jordie playing fullback. He's like a latter-day Don Clarke - and we don't have anyone else like him - with the height and size to really command the air and a big and accurate boot.
Our defensive system has been a sort of umbrella system, with the wings pushing in and Jordie smashing the widest player. I don't know if any of our other options can be trusted in this role.
Maybe it's no bad thing if it has to be abandoned, since our wings often seem to get lost in it.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Do you want a high ball taker that feeds to a wing?
for me we need a back three that is most capable under the high ball, the likes of BB, WJ, CC & SS seem to fit the bill IMO.
All good atatcking players, but strong under the high ball, because we know other teams will target us there, although with a back three with that attack, they may not be so keen to do that, menaing they need to run it more, or simply trust thier chase defence.
That's why I don't discount the idea of Jordie playing fullback. He's like a latter-day Don Clarke - and we don't have anyone else like him - with the height and size to really command the air and a big and accurate boot.
Our defensive system has been a sort of umbrella system, with the wings pushing in and Jordie smashing the widest player. I don't know if any of our other options can be trusted in this role.
Maybe it's no bad thing if it has to be abandoned, since our wings often seem to get lost in it.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Do you want a high ball taker that feeds to a wing?
for me we need a back three that is most capable under the high ball, the likes of BB, WJ, CC & SS seem to fit the bill IMO.
All good atatcking players, but strong under the high ball, because we know other teams will target us there, although with a back three with that attack, they may not be so keen to do that, menaing they need to run it more, or simply trust thier chase defence.
That's why I don't discount the idea of Jordie playing fullback. He's like a latter-day Don Clarke - and we don't have anyone else like him - with the height and size to really command the air and a big and accurate boot.
Our defensive system has been a sort of umbrella system, with the wings pushing in and Jordie smashing the widest player. I don't know if any of our other options can be trusted in this role.
Maybe it's no bad thing if it has to be abandoned, since our wings often seem to get lost in it.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
we don't have anyone else like him - with the height and size to really command the air and a big and accurate boot.
Have you not watched Shaun Stevenson play?
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I know it's been talked to death, but our real problem is really at 10 though isn't it. Beauden past it, Mo'unga not good enough, DMac the most promising but would most likely struggle the same way Mo'unga does in a big test. We just don't have anyone that can control the game come the knock-out stages. That to me is our biggest weakness this RWC.
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I know it's been talked to death, but our real problem is really at 10 though isn't it. Beauden past it, Mo'unga not good enough, DMac the most promising but would most likely struggle the same way Mo'unga does in a big test. We just don't have anyone that can control the game come the knock-out stages. That to me is our biggest weakness this RWC.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
I know it's been talked to death, but our real problem is really at 10 though isn't it. Beauden past it, Mo'unga not good enough, DMac the most promising but would most likely struggle the same way Mo'unga does in a big test. We just don't have anyone that can control the game come the knock-out stages. That to me is our biggest weakness this RWC.
Those three are all world class. The aim is to make them world beaters.
At present we dont seem to have a gameplan that uses the abilities of those 10s in a way that counters the games that Ireland and France (and SA) will bring.
We need a defence that can deal with Ireland's manipulation game and disrupt their flow. With France you need to cut down their possession.
If we knew those plans we could select the right 10. -
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
I know it's been talked to death, but our real problem is really at 10 though isn't it. Beauden past it, Mo'unga not good enough, DMac the most promising but would most likely struggle the same way Mo'unga does in a big test. We just don't have anyone that can control the game come the knock-out stages. That to me is our biggest weakness this RWC.
Those three are all world class. The aim is to make them world beaters.
At present we dont seem to have a gameplan that uses the abilities of those 10s in a way that counters the games that Ireland and France (and SA) will bring.
We need a defence that can deal with Ireland's manipulation game and disrupt their flow. With France you need to cut down their possession.
If we knew those plans we could select the right 10. -
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
I know it's been talked to death, but our real problem is really at 10 though isn't it. Beauden past it, Mo'unga not good enough, DMac the most promising but would most likely struggle the same way Mo'unga does in a big test. We just don't have anyone that can control the game come the knock-out stages. That to me is our biggest weakness this RWC.
Those three are all world class. The aim is to make them world beaters.
At present we dont seem to have a gameplan that uses the abilities of those 10s in a way that counters the games that Ireland and France (and SA) will bring.
We need a defence that can deal with Ireland's manipulation game and disrupt their flow. With France you need to cut down their possession.
If we knew those plans we could select the right 10.@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Those three are all world class.
well fuck we are stetching that definition reeeaaallll fucking wide now
NZ has 3 world class 10s? Really? Well aren't we just killing it.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Those three are all world class.
well fuck we are stetching that definition reeeaaallll fucking wide now
NZ has 3 world class 10s? Really? Well aren't we just killing it.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Those three are all world class.
well fuck we are stetching that definition reeeaaallll fucking wide now
NZ has 3 world class 10s? Really? Well aren't we just killing it.
Depends on your definition. To me World Class doesn't mean just the best player. There are few teams in the world that wouldn't want any of those three playing for them. The obvious two are the top two because they already have world class 10s as well.
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@Crucial yes, we either need a new game plan that plays to our world class talent...or they need to be dropped for people that can just do the game plan we currently have...we need to pick a lane and stop trying to have both
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial yes, we either need a new game plan that plays to our world class talent...or they need to be dropped for people that can just do the game plan we currently have...we need to pick a lane and stop trying to have both
100 % yes.
You sort of think the coaching staff in charge of developing a winning AB team would have come to this conclusion a few years ago.
As a coach you sit down before taking something on and devise how you want to play, what talent you have and how it fits in to what you perceive as a winning game plan.
More so if you are planning 4 years in advance to get to a WC with a high chance of winning that WC as there are more variables in a 4 year cycle. -
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Those three are all world class.
well fuck we are stetching that definition reeeaaallll fucking wide now
NZ has 3 world class 10s? Really? Well aren't we just killing it.
Depends on your definition. To me World Class doesn't mean just the best player. There are few teams in the world that wouldn't want any of those three playing for them. The obvious two are the top two because they already have world class 10s as well.
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Those three are all world class.
well fuck we are stetching that definition reeeaaallll fucking wide now
NZ has 3 world class 10s? Really? Well aren't we just killing it.
Depends on your definition. To me World Class doesn't mean just the best player. There are few teams in the world that wouldn't want any of those three playing for them. The obvious two are the top two because they already have world class 10s as well.
that's laughably wide.
Would either of our three main competitors right now start any of them? No
Would any of them make the bench? maybe.I'm not even convinced they would play for England, given how England want to play.
If you are putting together a World 23 are any of them really in the conversation? I would say no
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Those three are all world class.
well fuck we are stetching that definition reeeaaallll fucking wide now
NZ has 3 world class 10s? Really? Well aren't we just killing it.
Depends on your definition. To me World Class doesn't mean just the best player. There are few teams in the world that wouldn't want any of those three playing for them. The obvious two are the top two because they already have world class 10s as well.
that's laughably wide.
Would either of our three main competitors right now start any of them? No
Would any of them make the bench? maybe.I'm not even convinced they would play for England, given how England want to play.
If you are putting together a World 23 are any of them really in the conversation? I would say no
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Those three are all world class.
well fuck we are stetching that definition reeeaaallll fucking wide now
NZ has 3 world class 10s? Really? Well aren't we just killing it.
Depends on your definition. To me World Class doesn't mean just the best player. There are few teams in the world that wouldn't want any of those three playing for them. The obvious two are the top two because they already have world class 10s as well.
that's laughably wide.
Would either of our three main competitors right now start any of them? No
Would any of them make the bench? maybe.I'm not even convinced they would play for England, given how England want to play.
If you are putting together a World 23 are any of them really in the conversation? I would say no
So we have a different definition.
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I'm def in the camp we have the players (maybe not the best, but certainly good enough) but the game plans employed are not playing to thier strengths, not to mention some out of position play, which affects things further.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I'm def in the camp we have the players (maybe not the best, but certainly good enough) but the game plans employed are not playing to thier strengths, not to mention some out of position play, which affects things further.
Outside of 10 we definitely have the players capable of beating anyone. But our 10s are very hot and cold even at Super level, let alone in the pressure cooker of a test against the top sides. Agree with @mariner4life, there's no way we can call our 10s world class when they are simply not among the best in the world. Dan Carter was world class. Aaron Cruden was world class. Our current 10s are miles behind those two.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I'm def in the camp we have the players (maybe not the best, but certainly good enough) but the game plans employed are not playing to thier strengths, not to mention some out of position play, which affects things further.
Outside of 10 we definitely have the players capable of beating anyone. But our 10s are very hot and cold even at Super level, let alone in the pressure cooker of a test against the top sides. Agree with @mariner4life, there's no way we can call our 10s world class when they are simply not among the best in the world. Dan Carter was world class. Aaron Cruden was world class. Our current 10s are miles behind those two.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
Dan Carter was world class. Aaron Cruden was world class. Our current 10s are miles behind those two.
I'd probably take Sopoaga above the current 10s as well. He was developing really nicely and played execptionally well in that win against SA in Joburg
Tom Taylor seemed a talent too; it's a real pity we lost him
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Do you want a high ball taker that feeds to a wing?
for me we need a back three that is most capable under the high ball, the likes of BB, WJ, CC & SS seem to fit the bill IMO.
All good atatcking players, but strong under the high ball, because we know other teams will target us there, although with a back three with that attack, they may not be so keen to do that, menaing they need to run it more, or simply trust thier chase defence.
That's why I don't discount the idea of Jordie playing fullback. He's like a latter-day Don Clarke - and we don't have anyone else like him - with the height and size to really command the air and a big and accurate boot.
Our defensive system has been a sort of umbrella system, with the wings pushing in and Jordie smashing the widest player. I don't know if any of our other options can be trusted in this role.
Maybe it's no bad thing if it has to be abandoned, since our wings often seem to get lost in it.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
That's why I don't discount the idea of Jordie playing fullback. He's like a latter-day Don Clarke - and we don't have anyone else like him - with the height and size to really command the air and a big and accurate boot
Jordie's boot from the back is simply not accurate. For whatever reason it just isn't. He has a big boot but from fullback it's never been accurate.
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I have never really understood where 'Jordie has a big boot on him' has come from. I suppose it looks big compared to the pea shooters we have going around NZ at the moment, but I don't think it is consistently big on the world stage.
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I have never really understood where 'Jordie has a big boot on him' has come from. I suppose it looks big compared to the pea shooters we have going around NZ at the moment, but I don't think it is consistently big on the world stage.
@Crazy-Horse i'll admit i have always thought he had a big boot, maybe i fell for the hype?
edit: i know is a place kick but over 60m is a decent kick
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@Crazy-Horse i'll admit i have always thought he had a big boot, maybe i fell for the hype?
edit: i know is a place kick but over 60m is a decent kick
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crazy-Horse i'll admit i have always thought he had a big boot, maybe i fell for the hype?
edit: i know is a place kick but over 60m is a decent kick
Yeah he can pull out a decent place kick, agree there. I was referring to his punting. It's not a consistent weapon at test level. Every now and then I see coverage from a few years ago with Dagg punting. It's quite noticeable the distance he consistently got compared to the guys around today.
