All Blacks 2023
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If Richie could defend like this I would be alot happier
What's Richie good at? And why is he one of the best Super players I've watched? Because he shreds fragmented defenses, especially 2 passes wide and on the counter.
If we want to get the best of him therefore we need a 12 that terrifies defenses
And a pack full of big munter ball runners. To get teams on the back footSo what do we pick?
Savea who is best wider.
Cane who can't run the ball
Barrett or fucking Frizzell
Whitelock and Retallick.What Richie isn't good at is keeping the ball in front of his forwards. Terrorising inside channels. Field kicking. Being confronted by organised defenses constantly coming forward.
We pick teams that seem to lead to this situation and then hope we can go around them@mariner4life To be fair to Richie, who I actually think should/will be our 10 at WC, I think there is a simpler thing he needs than changing all the players around him to be at his best, he just needs Super rugby level defence!!:beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes:
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
That is why you create live depth charts right down to your u/16s, to understand what your depth is to sustain the game plan you develop, its basic coaching strategy,and wether you have the depth for tweaks you need when variables come along.
I really don't think you can expect a AB Coach - before he's even got the job remember - to produce a winning game plan based on live depth charts down to U16 level that he's developed, and then judge him on the success of that self-same game-plan.
The world just doesn't work like that, sadly.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
That is why you create live depth charts right down to your u/16s, to understand what your depth is to sustain the game plan you develop, its basic coaching strategy,and wether you have the depth for tweaks you need when variables come along.
I really don't think you can expect a AB Coach - before he's even got the job remember - to produce a winning game plan based on live depth charts down to U16 level that he's developed, and then judge him on the success of that self-same game-plan.
The world just doesn't work like that, sadly.
You know that the game plan doesn’t totally come from depth charts.
It is a tool to understand if you have the players to implement and sustain your game plan.Plus how much depth at different abilities you have and have coming though to keep on top of the changes you always need to freshen your game plan.
You start with a game plan and tweak it as you hit variables coming at you from the opposition and internally.
But if you don’t know the players abilities,current form,ability under pressure,work ethic,ability to fit into culture,how they take on board coaching advice, likely future development you are stuck at sea and are guessing and hoping it all comes together.I am sure you are well aware of all of that,but you want to come from one certain angle so it does not suit your argument.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
That is why you create live depth charts right down to your u/16s, to understand what your depth is to sustain the game plan you develop, its basic coaching strategy,and wether you have the depth for tweaks you need when variables come along.
I really don't think you can expect a AB Coach - before he's even got the job remember - to produce a winning game plan based on live depth charts down to U16 level that he's developed, and then judge him on the success of that self-same game-plan.
The world just doesn't work like that, sadly.
You know that the game plan doesn’t totally come from depth charts.
It is a tool to understand if you have the players to implement and sustain your game plan.Plus how much depth at different abilities you have and have coming though to keep on top of the changes you always need to freshen your game plan.
You start with a game plan and tweak it as you hit variables coming at you from the opposition and internally.
But if you don’t know the players abilities,current form,ability under pressure,work ethic,ability to fit into culture,how they take on board coaching advice, likely future development you are stuck at sea and are guessing and hoping it all comes together.I am sure you are well aware of all of that,but you want to come from one certain angle so it does not suit your argument.
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
That is why you create live depth charts right down to your u/16s, to understand what your depth is to sustain the game plan you develop, its basic coaching strategy,and wether you have the depth for tweaks you need when variables come along.
I really don't think you can expect a AB Coach - before he's even got the job remember - to produce a winning game plan based on live depth charts down to U16 level that he's developed, and then judge him on the success of that self-same game-plan.
The world just doesn't work like that, sadly.
You know that the game plan doesn’t totally come from depth charts.
It is a tool to understand if you have the players to implement and sustain your game plan.Plus how much depth at different abilities you have and have coming though to keep on top of the changes you always need to freshen your game plan.
You start with a game plan and tweak it as you hit variables coming at you from the opposition and internally.
But if you don’t know the players abilities,current form,ability under pressure,work ethic,ability to fit into culture,how they take on board coaching advice, likely future development you are stuck at sea and are guessing and hoping it all comes together.I am sure you are well aware of all of that,but you want to come from one certain angle so it does not suit your argument.
Pretty sure that depth plan alignment with strategy is the reason why we see some players pulled into the set up ahead of others that are arguably better.
It's not just a case of being better it is whether you either have, or have the forseen ability, to play a certain way.Take halfback as an example. Let's say that the strategy/game plans are based around a speed to clear the ball and nothing else. Player Cs USP is a little different, they are an extra loosie type halfback that directs play off hand and boot and has an eye to get over the advantage line. Very effective, and shining at another level, but may not fit the role being planned for.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
That is why you create live depth charts right down to your u/16s, to understand what your depth is to sustain the game plan you develop, its basic coaching strategy,and wether you have the depth for tweaks you need when variables come along.
I really don't think you can expect a AB Coach - before he's even got the job remember - to produce a winning game plan based on live depth charts down to U16 level that he's developed, and then judge him on the success of that self-same game-plan.
The world just doesn't work like that, sadly.
You know that the game plan doesn’t totally come from depth charts.
It is a tool to understand if you have the players to implement and sustain your game plan.Plus how much depth at different abilities you have and have coming though to keep on top of the changes you always need to freshen your game plan.
You start with a game plan and tweak it as you hit variables coming at you from the opposition and internally.
But if you don’t know the players abilities,current form,ability under pressure,work ethic,ability to fit into culture,how they take on board coaching advice, likely future development you are stuck at sea and are guessing and hoping it all comes together.I am sure you are well aware of all of that,but you want to come from one certain angle so it does not suit your argument.
Pretty sure that depth plan alignment with strategy is the reason why we see some players pulled into the set up ahead of others that are arguably better.
It's not just a case of being better it is whether you either have, or have the forseen ability, to play a certain way.Take halfback as an example. Let's say that the strategy/game plans are based around a speed to clear the ball and nothing else. Player Cs USP is a little different, they are an extra loosie type halfback that directs play off hand and boot and has an eye to get over the advantage line. Very effective, and shining at another level, but may not fit the role being planned for.
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
That is why you create live depth charts right down to your u/16s, to understand what your depth is to sustain the game plan you develop, its basic coaching strategy,and wether you have the depth for tweaks you need when variables come along.
I really don't think you can expect a AB Coach - before he's even got the job remember - to produce a winning game plan based on live depth charts down to U16 level that he's developed, and then judge him on the success of that self-same game-plan.
The world just doesn't work like that, sadly.
You know that the game plan doesn’t totally come from depth charts.
It is a tool to understand if you have the players to implement and sustain your game plan.Plus how much depth at different abilities you have and have coming though to keep on top of the changes you always need to freshen your game plan.
You start with a game plan and tweak it as you hit variables coming at you from the opposition and internally.
But if you don’t know the players abilities,current form,ability under pressure,work ethic,ability to fit into culture,how they take on board coaching advice, likely future development you are stuck at sea and are guessing and hoping it all comes together.I am sure you are well aware of all of that,but you want to come from one certain angle so it does not suit your argument.
Pretty sure that depth plan alignment with strategy is the reason why we see some players pulled into the set up ahead of others that are arguably better.
It's not just a case of being better it is whether you either have, or have the forseen ability, to play a certain way.Take halfback as an example. Let's say that the strategy/game plans are based around a speed to clear the ball and nothing else. Player Cs USP is a little different, they are an extra loosie type halfback that directs play off hand and boot and has an eye to get over the advantage line. Very effective, and shining at another level, but may not fit the role being planned for.
100 % agree with you you can see it mapped out.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble We were relying on Danny in 2015, but most people would rather have had Cruden playing first five if he wasn't broken - especially as Dan (and Richie McCaw) phoned it in for yet another Super season under Toddy Blackadder.
Four years ago, who would have traded Richie or Beaudy for the creaking Jonny Sexton who'd just had his arse handed to him in a hat in Japan?
We can win the RWC with our first fives - especially Richie. And if we can't, how come our other AB laden Super teams can't ever seem to stop him at the business end of Super rugby?
The Crusaders success at Super level is more centered around their pack controlling the match rather than their star 10 driving them around the field. Not to take too much away from Mo'unga, he's very effective at Super level, but his game just hasn't translated to test level at all thus far.
An example of this is he often stations himself wider looking for mismatches, which he invariably finds at Super level as all teams have journeymen that can be exploited. He's tried the same for the ABs and has just gone completely missing for multiple phases of play as those mismatches don't really exist at that level. As a result the ABs look clueless as nobody is driving the team around the park and we end up under the pump. It's a big reason why he can look a million bucks against the lesser teams like the Wallabies, but as soon as we are up against an organised defense, e.g. SA or Ireland, he's completely anonymous.
That's why I say he's not good enough, as I'm really not sure he has the skillset and mental attributes required to control a big test, especially a RWC knock-out match.
It's a real shame Beauden's form hasn't been good, as he's easily our best 10 as he commands the ball and tries to direct play, and is not afraid to take the line on against the tougher defenses. If he can recapture his form from a few years ago then we'd be in a much better place. I'm really hoping DMac can play that role, but the jury is out on that against the best teams.
There's a lot of egg in that mix, NQ!!!
I'm going to start by quoting an un-named journo* on Richie. "The finest Super Rugby player of all time"!
I think he's right - but, it's hard to compare across positions, so I'll stick with with "the best and most influential 10". He's got a significantly better winning record than Danny in Super rugby - he's never lost a play-off game. Similar with Canterbury in the NPC - he might have lost once to the Mako.
It's not forward dominant - it's Richie-dominant. Whenever he's been missing and we've played the likes of Mitch Hunt, Dave Havili and Fergus Burke at first five - and I reckon we've barely won 50% of those games. With Richie at the helm we win 85% of the time and the losses to date have never been in the big knock-out games.
Watch Razor talking about "his franchise quarterback", "...his Steph Curry". It is quite a shame we're unlikely to see them paired for the ABs.
So, that's what I have to say in response to Richie's Super rugby record. He's got a winner's mentality, so I'm not sure why you would question that when his competition have repeatedly failed at that level. (Yeah, I know that comment isn't going to be popular).
Moving to test rugby, well, you're setting me up for an "I told you so" when we don't win the RWC later this year and the odds are a bit against us.
But, Beaudy got pretty comprehensively toppled from his perch as first choice 1st five in the middle of last season and DMac's had two starts ever at 10 for the ABs. Barring a catastrophe, Richie is going to be our starting first five at RWC 2023 - this is obvious even to Blind Freddie.
It's also a good thing.
There was a thread a while ago about the most important player at RWC 2023 - and for most teams, people were picking the first five - Sexton, Ntamack, etc - but, for NZ I don't think anyone did.
In your dreams!!!
Our most important player will be our first five - and it will be Richie.
And he can win it for us - admittedly channeling a bit more Carlos than Danny-Boy.
You've noted that he is completely anonymous against Ireland and SA.
Well, here's some stats to ponder.
Against Ireland, the only game Richie has started is the RWC quarter final when we thumped them 46-15. He's played off the bench five other times (with Beaudy starting) for one win and four losses.
Against the Jaapies he's started 3 games for two wins and a draw. Off the bench, he's one win and two losses.
It's small samples, but it suggest to me that he's someone you start and let command the game, not someone to pull the fat out of the fire in the last 20 minutes.
Richie's only lost five times starting, in an era of somewhat inept coaching and a slightly substandard team.
Go Richie!!!
- The journo is Reason, but his discussion will help you feel better when we're starting Richie at RWC2023.
** Fuck you all and especially anyone who refuses to read the Reason article !!!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
I'm going to start by quoting an un-named journo* on Richie. "The finest Super Rugby player of all time"!
I think he's right -I think you are very blinkered in what you draw beyond this. There is much more to being a test 10 and I have yet to see it delivered consistently. My biggest concern is that his test level weaknesses do not seem to be improving and can be targeted by good opposition. Not sure he is our best rwc starting candidate yet unless he tightens up his play and seeks constant control over opportunism.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
I'm going to start by quoting an un-named journo* on Richie. "The finest Super Rugby player of all time"!
I think he's right -I think you are very blinkered in what you draw beyond this. There is much more to being a test 10 and I have yet to see it delivered consistently. My biggest concern is that his test level weaknesses do not seem to be improving and can be targeted by good opposition. Not sure he is our best rwc starting candidate yet unless he tightens up his play and seeks constant control over opportunism.
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
I'm going to start by quoting an un-named journo* on Richie. "The finest Super Rugby player of all time"!
I think he's right -I think you are very blinkered in what you draw beyond this. There is much more to being a test 10 and I have yet to see it delivered consistently. My biggest concern is that his test level weaknesses do not seem to be improving and can be targeted by good opposition. Not sure he is our best rwc starting candidate yet unless he tightens up his play and seeks constant control over opportunism.
Last RWC it was a massive coaching mistake to think they could hide him on defence. It provided a target for others to exploit. I think his defence has improved since then but there will still be patterns in his play and decision making that good coaches will be building plans around.
He's not entirely a front foot player but (like BB) his positive abilities are just about all when on the front foot. -
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
I'm going to start by quoting an un-named journo* on Richie. "The finest Super Rugby player of all time"!
I think he's right -I think you are very blinkered in what you draw beyond this. There is much more to being a test 10 and I have yet to see it delivered consistently. My biggest concern is that his test level weaknesses do not seem to be improving and can be targeted by good opposition. Not sure he is our best rwc starting candidate yet unless he tightens up his play and seeks constant control over opportunism.
Last RWC it was a massive coaching mistake to think they could hide him on defence. It provided a target for others to exploit. I think his defence has improved since then but there will still be patterns in his play and decision making that good coaches will be building plans around.
He's not entirely a front foot player but (like BB) his positive abilities are just about all when on the front foot.@Crucial yeah, rugby isn't like some sports where there are places you can hide, in AFL they often talk about have a rest up front, but attack can come from anywhere in rugby...the closest thing to somewhere you could rest on D is standing directly behind someone like Kino
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No doubt @Chris-B is over-egging Mo'unga, probably to counter my negativity towards him, the truth probably lies somewhere in between. At the moment I have him alongside someone like Adam Thomson, a super star at Super level, but a lightweight at test level.
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No doubt @Chris-B is over-egging Mo'unga, probably to counter my negativity towards him, the truth probably lies somewhere in between. At the moment I have him alongside someone like Adam Thomson, a super star at Super level, but a lightweight at test level.
An article in the ODT earlier this year called him the Graeme Hick of rugby
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No doubt @Chris-B is over-egging Mo'unga, probably to counter my negativity towards him, the truth probably lies somewhere in between. At the moment I have him alongside someone like Adam Thomson, a super star at Super level, but a lightweight at test level.
@No-Quarter i think that's the hardest thing for people to understand, being great at super rugby doesn't mean theyre be great at international, the true greats lift their game in the black jersey...but lots just show they were already playing at the top of their game
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@No-Quarter i think that's the hardest thing for people to understand, being great at super rugby doesn't mean theyre be great at international, the true greats lift their game in the black jersey...but lots just show they were already playing at the top of their game
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@No-Quarter i think that's the hardest thing for people to understand, being great at super rugby doesn't mean theyre be great at international, the true greats lift their game in the black jersey...but lots just show they were already playing at the top of their game
Akira ?
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@No-Quarter i think that's the hardest thing for people to understand, being great at super rugby doesn't mean theyre be great at international, the true greats lift their game in the black jersey...but lots just show they were already playing at the top of their game
Akira ?
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@No-Quarter i think that's the hardest thing for people to understand, being great at super rugby doesn't mean theyre be great at international, the true greats lift their game in the black jersey...but lots just show they were already playing at the top of their game
Akira ?
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@No-Quarter i think that's the hardest thing for people to understand, being great at super rugby doesn't mean theyre be great at international, the true greats lift their game in the black jersey...but lots just show they were already playing at the top of their game
Akira ?
We know you're just trolling here, no Cantab would ever admit to Akira being great at Super level.
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Interesting looking back on the TSF MOTM voting in recent years:
2022
33 Savea
28 Taukeiaho
19 Papali'i
17 R Ioane
13 Whitelock
13 S Barrett
11 Retallick
10 Smith
8 J Barrett
7 Lomax
6 Clarke
5 de Groot
4 A Ioane
4 Sotutu
4 Jordan
3 Telea
3 Reece
3 Bower
3 Cane
2 Perenara
2 Tupaea
1 RTS
1 Taylor
2021
18 Jordie Barrett
18 Akira Ioane
15 Dalton Papali'i
14 Will Jordan
13 Dane Coles
12 Rieko Ioane
12 Sam Whitelock
12 Aaron Smith
12 Luke Jacobson
10 Samisoni Taukeiaho
10 David Havili
10 Quinn Tupaea
10 Ethan Blackadder
8 Beauden Barrett
8 Ardie Savea
8 Brodie Retallick
7 Finlay Christie
5 Codie Taylor
5 Damian McKenzie
4 Sevu Reece
4 Brad Weber
4 Richie Mo'unga
3 Hoskins Sotutu
2 George Bridge
1 Scott Barrett
1 TJ Perenara
1 George BowerIt's harder to find the tally for 2020
But it is interesting to see where the 10's have been rated. BB with some moderate votes in 2021.
Neither 10 even featuring last year! So they never made the top 5 of any TSF vote
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To state the obvious loose forward feels like a real logjam position
Cane/Savea/Papalii feel locked in (also Scott Barrett if you consider him a 6)
That leaves Blackadder/Frizell/Akira/Sotutu/Harmon/MMT/Jacobson fighting for 2-3 spots?
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Interesting looking back on the TSF MOTM voting in recent years:
2022
33 Savea
28 Taukeiaho
19 Papali'i
17 R Ioane
13 Whitelock
13 S Barrett
11 Retallick
10 Smith
8 J Barrett
7 Lomax
6 Clarke
5 de Groot
4 A Ioane
4 Sotutu
4 Jordan
3 Telea
3 Reece
3 Bower
3 Cane
2 Perenara
2 Tupaea
1 RTS
1 Taylor
2021
18 Jordie Barrett
18 Akira Ioane
15 Dalton Papali'i
14 Will Jordan
13 Dane Coles
12 Rieko Ioane
12 Sam Whitelock
12 Aaron Smith
12 Luke Jacobson
10 Samisoni Taukeiaho
10 David Havili
10 Quinn Tupaea
10 Ethan Blackadder
8 Beauden Barrett
8 Ardie Savea
8 Brodie Retallick
7 Finlay Christie
5 Codie Taylor
5 Damian McKenzie
4 Sevu Reece
4 Brad Weber
4 Richie Mo'unga
3 Hoskins Sotutu
2 George Bridge
1 Scott Barrett
1 TJ Perenara
1 George BowerIt's harder to find the tally for 2020
But it is interesting to see where the 10's have been rated. BB with some moderate votes in 2021.
Neither 10 even featuring last year! So they never made the top 5 of any TSF vote
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:
Interesting looking back on the TSF MOTM voting in recent years:
2022
33 Savea
28 Taukeiaho
19 Papali'i
17 R Ioane
13 Whitelock
13 S Barrett
11 Retallick
10 Smith
8 J Barrett
7 Lomax
6 Clarke
5 de Groot
4 A Ioane
4 Sotutu
4 Jordan
3 Telea
3 Reece
3 Bower
3 Cane
2 Perenara
2 Tupaea
1 RTS
1 Taylor
2021
18 Jordie Barrett
18 Akira Ioane
15 Dalton Papali'i
14 Will Jordan
13 Dane Coles
12 Rieko Ioane
12 Sam Whitelock
12 Aaron Smith
12 Luke Jacobson
10 Samisoni Taukeiaho
10 David Havili
10 Quinn Tupaea
10 Ethan Blackadder
8 Beauden Barrett
8 Ardie Savea
8 Brodie Retallick
7 Finlay Christie
5 Codie Taylor
5 Damian McKenzie
4 Sevu Reece
4 Brad Weber
4 Richie Mo'unga
3 Hoskins Sotutu
2 George Bridge
1 Scott Barrett
1 TJ Perenara
1 George BowerIt's harder to find the tally for 2020
But it is interesting to see where the 10's have been rated. BB with some moderate votes in 2021.
Neither 10 even featuring last year! So they never made the top 5 of any TSF vote
That's quite telling for such a critical position
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To state the obvious loose forward feels like a real logjam position
Cane/Savea/Papalii feel locked in (also Scott Barrett if you consider him a 6)
That leaves Blackadder/Frizell/Akira/Sotutu/Harmon/MMT/Jacobson fighting for 2-3 spots?
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2023:
To state the obvious loose forward feels like a real logjam position
Cane/Savea/Papalii feel locked in (also Scott Barrett if you consider him a 6)
That leaves Blackadder/Frizell/Akira/Sotutu/Harmon/MMT/Jacobson fighting for 2-3 spots?
At the moment I don't think Akira, Harmon, MMT, Jacobson would be high up the list options.
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To state the obvious loose forward feels like a real logjam position
Cane/Savea/Papalii feel locked in (also Scott Barrett if you consider him a 6)
That leaves Blackadder/Frizell/Akira/Sotutu/Harmon/MMT/Jacobson fighting for 2-3 spots?
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2023:
To state the obvious loose forward feels like a real logjam position
Cane/Savea/Papalii feel locked in (also Scott Barrett if you consider him a 6)
That leaves Blackadder/Frizell/Akira/Sotutu/Harmon/MMT/Jacobson fighting for 2-3 spots?
frizell can finally fuck off, withy has been showing him up the last few weeks so cant even point to super level to justify getting a call up anymore
