All Blacks 2023

Dan54

@Unite said in All Blacks 2023:

@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:

I think Fozzies hand will be forced anyway like it has been historically......

5 games to go. 2 against Australia, 2 against the Boks and 1 against Argentina.

There are no easybeats there. There will be casualties.

There is only 1 vs the Boks isn’t there?

Edit: sorry forgot about the game in the UK.

No 2 against Boks, playing a warm up for WC against them at Twickenham.

No Quarter

I'm with @Steve on Jordan, if he's fit he's straight back into my starting 15. Players like him win tight tests, he's absolutely critical to our chances.

This is the backline I'm wanting right now:

Smith
DMac
Clarke
Jordie
Rieko
Jordan
Sullivan

That's a backline that could take crappy possession and score points anyway. DMac, Jordie and Sullivan also gives us kicking options across the park.

We really need to shelve some of our experience and throw caution to the wind this year as we're a fair way off top sides, so anything conservative will almost certainly see an early exit.

Kiwiwomble

@No-Quarter i REALLY want to see Jordan at 15....but i dont hate that selection, a couple of form, a couple on being established...id like to see it fire

Chester Draws

@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:

@Unite said in All Blacks 2023:

@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:

I think Fozzies hand will be forced anyway like it has been historically......

5 games to go. 2 against Australia, 2 against the Boks and 1 against Argentina.

There are no easybeats there. There will be casualties.

There is only 1 vs the Boks isn’t there?

Edit: sorry forgot about the game in the UK.

I don't think what we have seen so far from the AB's under Foster is going to win the cup....

He knows he isn't getting reappointed.

Surely he has to roll the dice on a few calls no?

Foster was way more under the gun in South Africa last year. What did he do? He played exactly the same team as before, with exactly the same game plan.

As much as it pains me, Foster isn't going to take the slightest risk. He will go in with the 2022 side, unless forced by injury to change.

He was talking recently about how he thought Beauden Barrett might regain his form, as if returning him to #10. Really? He thinks that a man who hasn't done much for years is suddenly going to return to what he was five years ago?

Machpants

@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks 2023:

@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:

@Unite said in All Blacks 2023:

@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:

I think Fozzies hand will be forced anyway like it has been historically......

5 games to go. 2 against Australia, 2 against the Boks and 1 against Argentina.

There are no easybeats there. There will be casualties.

There is only 1 vs the Boks isn’t there?

Edit: sorry forgot about the game in the UK.

I don't think what we have seen so far from the AB's under Foster is going to win the cup....

He knows he isn't getting reappointed.

Surely he has to roll the dice on a few calls no?

Foster was way more under the gun in South Africa last year. What did he do? He played exactly the same team as before, with exactly the same game plan.

As much as it pains me, Foster isn't going to take the slightest risk. He will go in with the 2022 side, unless forced by injury to change.

He was talking recently about how he thought Beauden Barrett might regain his form, as if returning him to #10. Really? He thinks that a man who hasn't done much for years is suddenly going to return to what he was five years ago?

Foster's entire reign has been the definition of blinkered and stubborn. So he will stick with the tried and (not actually) true

Victor Meldrew

@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks 2023:

Foster was way more under the gun in South Africa last year. What did he do?

He won?

As much as it pains me, Foster isn't going to take the slightest risk. He will go in with the 2022 side, unless forced by injury to change.

Going with the most settled side possible is pretty much what every successful AB coach has done thru the years - particularly RWC-winning ones. Whether he has built the optimum settled side is open to debate...

He was talking recently about how he thought Beauden Barrett might regain his form, as if returning him to #10. Really? He thinks that a man who hasn't done much for years is suddenly going to return to what he was five years ago?

I recall pretty much the same thing being said about Carter pre-RWC2015. Was Hansen wrong to pick him?

Victor Meldrew

@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:

I don't think what we have seen so far from the AB's under Foster is going to win the cup....

The signs are def. there they could way better that we think. The problem is they fade away at the wrong time. E.g. the forwards were utter shite in the last quarter against England on the EOYT - appalling.

Surely he has to roll the dice on a few calls no?

The problem is he's rolled the dice and it hasn't come off either thru injury (QT) or picking players who look great at SR level but shit at Test level (take your pick but start with George Bridge). And he really doesn't have the games to try new things.

Chester Draws

@Victor-Meldrew I was pointing out what he did, and that change was unlikely.

That Foster's team won in South Africa isn't a huge proof that his player selection and strategies are good. If they were, they wouldn't have been in a "must win" position to start with.

I recall pretty much the same thing being said about Carter pre-RWC2015. Was Hansen wrong to pick him?

He had no choice, did he? Cruden was injured, and while some of Carter's form had dropped away, he started from so much higher than everyone else. I would have started a fully fit Cruden over Carter, but the decision to play Carter was obvious.

I would argue that picking Sam Cane is similar to the Carter situation. There are potential other selections, all of whom are playing well. Cane had a poor season last year, but again from a high starting point. Picking him might not be everyone's choice, but it's not mental.

Beauden Barrett's decline is not in the same league as Carter's nor Cane's. Not even close. He is stinking out his Super Rugby team, and shouldn't be starting for them, let alone the All Blacks.

kiwiinmelb

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:

@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks 2023:

Foster was way more under the gun in South Africa last year. What did he do?

He won?

As much as it pains me, Foster isn't going to take the slightest risk. He will go in with the 2022 side, unless forced by injury to change.

Going with the most settled side possible is pretty much what every successful AB coach has done thru the years - particularly RWC-winning ones. Whether he has built the optimum settled side is open to debate...

He was talking recently about how he thought Beauden Barrett might regain his form, as if returning him to #10. Really? He thinks that a man who hasn't done much for years is suddenly going to return to what he was five years ago?

I recall pretty much the same thing being said about Carter pre-RWC2015. Was Hansen wrong to pick him?

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:

@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks 2023:

Foster was way more under the gun in South Africa last year. What did he do?

He won?

As much as it pains me, Foster isn't going to take the slightest risk. He will go in with the 2022 side, unless forced by injury to change.

Going with the most settled side possible is pretty much what every successful AB coach has done thru the years - particularly RWC-winning ones. Whether he has built the optimum settled side is open to debate...

He was talking recently about how he thought Beauden Barrett might regain his form, as if returning him to #10. Really? He thinks that a man who hasn't done much for years is suddenly going to return to what he was five years ago?

I recall pretty much the same thing being said about Carter pre-RWC2015. Was Hansen wrong to pick him?

Whatever way he goes with selection , if he doesn’t win , he will have got his selections wrong according to all the critics with hindsight.

It’s been pretty much the case with every failed wc so far , can’t see it changing this time

canefan

@Chester-Draws I agree about BB. His form has fallen off a cliff. He's a shadow of his former self right now. But he wouldn't be the first AB to appear bang average in SR only to come good in black. I'm highly sceptical of that happening though

Crucial

@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:

@Chester-Draws I agree about BB. His form has fallen off a cliff. He's a shadow of his former self right now. But he wouldn't be the first AB to appear bang average in SR only to come good in black. I'm highly sceptical of that happening though

Trouble is that Dan and Richie were also like this at times then came right.
I suspect that BBs problem is confidence though and how does that come back? Unless he clears his mind and plays a coule of blinders for the Blues at the pointy end the ABs might risk him finding his feet in black.

Victor Meldrew

@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks 2023:

He had no choice, did he? Cruden was injured, and while some of Carter's form had dropped away, he started from so much higher than everyone else. I would have started a fully fit Cruden over Carter, but the decision to play Carter was obvious.

Not quite the point I was making. There was a fair bit of criticism in Carter's selection - regardless of injuries to other players - which echoes what is being said about BB right now. Foster's hoping BB will come right is equally valid and has the same type of risk in Hansen hoping Carter would re-capture his form.

That said, I'm pretty ambivalent about the bloke being selected.

taniwharugby

@Victor-Meldrew I thought Dan was more around niggly injuries than his form, which IIRC he at least showed he was still up to it more often than not, whereas BB seems to have only glimpses of his former self, but could be a confidence issue.

Crucial

BB isn't going to be left at home, let's accept that.
Big question is if he is persevered with as a starter.
On current form he is neither the best fullback or the best bench 10/15 option apart from experience

Kiwiwomble

@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:

BB isn't going to be left at home, let's accept that.
Big question is if he is persevered with as a starter.
On current form he is neither the best fullback or the best bench 10/15 option apart from experience

at most i think id take him and let him break some records against minos to give others a rest

I dont think BB has earned the same slack that DC did, I feel lots of his stand out games have been off the bench earlier in his career against tired opposition or fleeting moments of unbelievable brilliance and then 70 mins of ok to good, a far cry from DC defining what a 10 can do against the Lions

Crucial

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:

@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:

BB isn't going to be left at home, let's accept that.
Big question is if he is persevered with as a starter.
On current form he is neither the best fullback or the best bench 10/15 option apart from experience

at most i think id take him and let him break some records against minos to give others a rest

I dont think BB has earned the same slack that DC did, I feel lots of his stand out games have been off the bench earlier in his career against tired opposition or fleeting moments of unbelievable brilliance and then 70 mins of ok to good, a far cry from DC defining what a 10 can do against the Lions

To ditch him from the starting XV there needs to be evidence that the alternative is better.
That means that Stevenson and/or Jordan need opportunities to show out (or the JB at 12 setup is shelved)
Ideally one of these guys prove themselves and BB/DMac fight out the bench spot

Kiwiwomble

@Crucial i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level, those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...those positions with question marks we have to pick the form SRP player in that position

Crucial

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:

@Crucial i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level, those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...those positions with question marks we have to pick the form SRP player in that position

But the decision will be made by someone responsible and accountable, not a "roll the dice" punter (no offence). The toss up will be known vs unknown and that could depend on BB himself.
If, as the known quality, he isnt showing the attributes/form of the past that could force the decision to the unknown. If he is showing a trend toward regaining that past form, the known could be the lower risk option.

Kiwiwomble

@Crucial super rugby is more broken than i thought if it considered so different to international that picking people based on form is a complete roll of the dice....no its not exactly the same...but i think we have a good idea of what people can do...this is why people say its harder to get out of the AB's than into it....

I do realise im not making the decision....do you think anyone on here actually gets a say? i didn't think we had to caveat every post with that, i have also said several times i 100% expect fozzie to select all the same people baring injury inforced changes, kind of thought we were all just chatting about what we would do or what we would LIKE to see

Crucial

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:

@Crucial super rugby is more broken than i thought if it considered so different to international that picking people based on form is a complete roll of the dice....no its not exactly the same...but i think we have a good idea of what people can do...this is why people say its harder to get out of the AB's than into it....

I do realise im not making the decision....do you think anyone on here actually gets a say? i didn't think we had to caveat every post with that, i have also said several times i 100% expect fozzie to select all the same people baring injury inforced changes, kind of thought we were all just chatting about what we would do or what we would LIKE to see

Apologies if that wasnt written well. The point was more that the selectors will be risk averse with the responsibility they hold. They may well think like us but that thinking will be tempered.
As for Super/Test we have had lots of examples of Super players that shine there but don't do as well at tests. RM, Bridge, Frizzell, Akira, Clarke...... sometimes you even get the opposite.

The Silver Fern

All Blacks 2023