All Blacks 2023
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Foster doesnt seem to be able to push those buttons
is this actually true?
A lot of players have come in and played bloody good. Telea, Ioane, Barretts J & S, Smith, Savea, Papali'i, Whitelock, The new front rowers.
Are we just creating yet another stick to beat foster and excuse the precious players from any criticism.
It's not BB's fault, the coach just hasn't been able to push his buttons
It's not Mo'unga's fault, the coach won't let him play his natural game, put the right players around him, or any of the other bullshit i have heard
It's not Havili's fault, the coach can't get the best out of him.Maybe these guys just aren't very good, either at this level, or any more, and the real stick is that Foster (like many other coaches) seems to put a lot of weight in "form is temporary , class is permanent" which just is not true. Class very much has an expiry date.
@mariner4life thats how I see it, we have also had players come in after being in good form, look shit.
I just don't know that he has the ability to get the best out of his players as a group.
Some of the tests last year were the worst I have witnessed, something def wasn't right, and for the most part I felt this was the mental part, which is where him, his coaches and to an extent his leadership group are key
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@Crucial dont think anyone seriously thinks he wont go, sure some think he doesnt deserve to, but surely most know he will be on the plane.
I think the difference in the past was many players out of form, did step up in the AB environment, they thrived and pretty much played as we expected, Foster doesnt seem to be able to push those buttons, or at least hasnt previously, but maybe he was playing the looooooong game with the RWC as his sole goal
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial dont think anyone seriously thinks he wont go, sure some think he doesnt deserve to, but surely most know he will be on the plane.
I think the difference in the past was many players out of form, did step up in the AB environment, they thrived and pretty much played as we expected, Foster doesnt seem to be able to push those buttons, or at least hasnt previously, but maybe he was playing the looooooong game with the RWC as his sole goal
Without wanting the thread to become “Fat Foster 2” don’t forget the disruption to the plan for this RWC cycle.
21 was meant to be identification with 22 consolidation. That didn’t go entirely to plan and decisions on backing some players had to be made with a “light” SRA.
Not making excuses just saying that it wasn’t as normal a cycle for NZ as expected and some hurdles came up which may have impacted us. Absolutely it is the coaches job to get over those hurdles but they still existed.
There’s always players that drift in form and calls need to be made. -
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Foster doesnt seem to be able to push those buttons
is this actually true?
A lot of players have come in and played bloody good. Telea, Ioane, Barretts J & S, Smith, Savea, Papali'i, Whitelock, The new front rowers.
Are we just creating yet another stick to beat foster and excuse the precious players from any criticism.
It's not BB's fault, the coach just hasn't been able to push his buttons
It's not Mo'unga's fault, the coach won't let him play his natural game, put the right players around him, or any of the other bullshit i have heard
It's not Havili's fault, the coach can't get the best out of him.Maybe these guys just aren't very good, either at this level, or any more, and the real stick is that Foster (like many other coaches) seems to put a lot of weight in "form is temporary , class is permanent" which just is not true. Class very much has an expiry date.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
is this actually true?
A lot of players have come in and played bloody good. Telea, Ioane, Barretts J & S, Smith, Savea, Papali'i, Whitelock, The new front rowers.I hope your insight is better than your grammar.
Telea-hasn't been there long enough to learn bad habits.
Ioane-which one? Both heavily criticised on here.
Barretts J & S-also criticized on here and arguably 2023 JB has dipped at FB from the earlier version. Arguably he is now a TF fave at 12 but that was a move that Foster explicitly resisted.
Smith-ups and downs like an up and down thing given his high standard, and didn't he thank another coach for his return to form/running/confidence?
Savea-when he doesn't play from the playbook.
Papali'i-not when moved to 6 he didn't.
Whitelock-um, I'm not convinced Sam lets the coaches tell him what to do.
The new front rowers-thanks to Ian Foster or Jason Ryan?
Hmm, maybe George, I'll give you George.Are we just creating yet another stick to beat foster and excuse the precious players from any criticism.
You must read a different forum to the one I read. It's a seething den of equality here, everyone gets beaten. Only the frequency varies.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
is this actually true?
A lot of players have come in and played bloody good. Telea, Ioane, Barretts J & S, Smith, Savea, Papali'i, Whitelock, The new front rowers.I hope your insight is better than your grammar.
Telea-hasn't been there long enough to learn bad habits.
Ioane-which one? Both heavily criticised on here.
Barretts J & S-also criticized on here and arguably 2023 JB has dipped at FB from the earlier version. Arguably he is now a TF fave at 12 but that was a move that Foster explicitly resisted.
Smith-ups and downs like an up and down thing given his high standard, and didn't he thank another coach for his return to form/running/confidence?
Savea-when he doesn't play from the playbook.
Papali'i-not when moved to 6 he didn't.
Whitelock-um, I'm not convinced Sam lets the coaches tell him what to do.
The new front rowers-thanks to Ian Foster or Jason Ryan?
Hmm, maybe George, I'll give you George.Are we just creating yet another stick to beat foster and excuse the precious players from any criticism.
You must read a different forum to the one I read. It's a seething den of equality here, everyone gets beaten. Only the frequency varies.
@nostrildamus what was wrong with his grammar? that made sense even if you disagree with the point
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My current backline would be
- Smith
- DMac
- Telea
- Jordie
- Ioane
- Jordan
- Stevenson
Roigard/BB/ALB reserves.
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@nostrildamus what was wrong with his grammar? that made sense even if you disagree with the point
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus what was wrong with his grammar? that made sense even if you disagree with the point
Ok you win, he wrote bloody good.
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Sometimes its a damned if you do damned if you dont scenario ,
I can remember in 2015 having big concerns over Dan Carters form or lack of it through super rugby , not convinced either way what was going to happen there,
Bloody hell did he turn back the clock or what ?
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Sometimes its a damned if you do damned if you dont scenario ,
I can remember in 2015 having big concerns over Dan Carters form or lack of it through super rugby , not convinced either way what was going to happen there,
Bloody hell did he turn back the clock or what ?
Yeah but he is Dan Carter......
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Sometimes its a damned if you do damned if you dont scenario ,
I can remember in 2015 having big concerns over Dan Carters form or lack of it through super rugby , not convinced either way what was going to happen there,
Bloody hell did he turn back the clock or what ?
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@Crucial i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level, those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...those positions with question marks we have to pick the form SRP player in that position
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...
JB's played 3 (?) games at 12 so I'm not too sure he's proved himself at Test level. That said, he's probably the least-worst option in that position and just being solid and injury-free is a huge improvement on the midfield debacle of the last few years. Midfield is still the weakest area for me.
Agree on picking the best SR players but also take into account whether they can handle the step up. Don't need another Bridge to nowhere.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...
JB's played 3 (?) games at 12 so I'm not too sure he's proved himself at Test level. That said, he's probably the least-worst option in that position and just being solid and injury-free is a huge improvement on the midfield debacle of the last few years. Midfield is still the weakest area for me.
Agree on picking the best SR players but also take into account whether they can handle the step up. Don't need another Bridge to nowhere.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...
JB's played 3 (?) games at 12 so I'm not too sure he's proved himself at Test level. That said, he's probably the least-worst option in that position and just being solid and injury-free is a huge improvement on the midfield debacle of the last few years. Midfield is still the weakest area for me.
Agree on picking the best SR players but also take into account whether they can handle the step up. Don't need another Bridge to nowhere.
Midfield is definitely a cause for concern, especially when you factor in the amount of time Fickou, Ringrose, Aki, Farrell et al have had in the saddle.
I think having 2 big lumps in there is the least worst option to borrow your phrase.
Give me Jordie and Rieko over Havili and ALB any day of the week.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial super rugby is more broken than i thought if it considered so different to international that picking people based on form is a complete roll of the dice....no its not exactly the same...but i think we have a good idea of what people can do...this is why people say its harder to get out of the AB's than into it....
I do realise im not making the decision....do you think anyone on here actually gets a say? i didn't think we had to caveat every post with that, i have also said several times i 100% expect fozzie to select all the same people baring injury inforced changes, kind of thought we were all just chatting about what we would do or what we would LIKE to see
Apologies if that wasnt written well. The point was more that the selectors will be risk averse with the responsibility they hold. They may well think like us but that thinking will be tempered.
As for Super/Test we have had lots of examples of Super players that shine there but don't do as well at tests. RM, Bridge, Frizzell, Akira, Clarke...... sometimes you even get the opposite.Sorry to butt in but your argument defeats itself.
Based on his record Foster does need to think more radically, he chooses players with clear issues at Super Rugby level that are exposed at international level, and his current tactics have been quickly found out and dealt with (such as by the Irish), plus he has little to lose given he leaves after the RWC, doesn't have a great legacy, is relying on ageing or fading players, hasn't gelled in many combinations of note (maybe the front row?) and above all doesn't have a reputation that needs defending.
If anything, something new is probably what AB RWC chances need.@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
Based on his record Foster does need to think more radically, he chooses players with clear issues at Super Rugby level that are exposed at international level, and his current tactics have been quickly found out and dealt with (such as by the Irish)
You can say that about every other team Ireland have beaten in the last few years - which is why they are no.1 in the rankings.
A RWC is a completely different beast to a Test series where you don't play the same team the next week, the ability to cover different positions more important, and the quality of the opposition varies hugely game by game.
I'd expect his selection to be based on known quantities with a smattering of exceptional players who pick themselves (Roigard, Stevenson) It's far too big a risk to go for radical team changes going into a RWC - there's no way back if a player selection doesn't come off,
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Dan Carter in 2015 reminded me of Messi nursing himself through the cut and thrust of his obligations in 2021 order to safely get to the "last dance".
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
Dan Carter in 2015 reminded me of Messi nursing himself through the cut and thrust of his obligations in 2021 order to safely get to the "last dance".
Pretty sure he was given a free pass , take your time , just get yourself right type of thing ,
Heard that some where , maybe shag, sometime after.
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@mariner4life thats how I see it, we have also had players come in after being in good form, look shit.
I just don't know that he has the ability to get the best out of his players as a group.
Some of the tests last year were the worst I have witnessed, something def wasn't right, and for the most part I felt this was the mental part, which is where him, his coaches and to an extent his leadership group are key
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I just don't know that he has the ability to get the best out of his players as a group.
Not consistently, anyway. Awesome against SA at Ellis Park & outstanding in the 1st half against England - utter shite (forwards in particular) in the second half.
Some of the tests last year were the worst I have witnessed, something def wasn't right, and for the most part I felt this was the mental part, which is where him, his coaches and to an extent his leadership group are key
The top 10% is definitely missing.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...
JB's played 3 (?) games at 12 so I'm not too sure he's proved himself at Test level. That said, he's probably the least-worst option in that position and just being solid and injury-free is a huge improvement on the midfield debacle of the last few years. Midfield is still the weakest area for me.
Agree on picking the best SR players but also take into account whether they can handle the step up. Don't need another Bridge to nowhere.
Midfield is definitely a cause for concern, especially when you factor in the amount of time Fickou, Ringrose, Aki, Farrell et al have had in the saddle.
I think having 2 big lumps in there is the least worst option to borrow your phrase.
Give me Jordie and Rieko over Havili and ALB any day of the week.
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...
JB's played 3 (?) games at 12 so I'm not too sure he's proved himself at Test level. That said, he's probably the least-worst option in that position and just being solid and injury-free is a huge improvement on the midfield debacle of the last few years. Midfield is still the weakest area for me.
Agree on picking the best SR players but also take into account whether they can handle the step up. Don't need another Bridge to nowhere.
Midfield is definitely a cause for concern, especially when you factor in the amount of time Fickou, Ringrose, Aki, Farrell et al have had in the saddle.
I think having 2 big lumps in there is the least worst option to borrow your phrase.
Give me Jordie and Rieko over Havili and ALB any day of the week.
I hope you're right, but I have nightmares about JB being exposed as inexperienced by the likes of Ringrose etc. Just make sure JB gets as much game time as possible and pray he doesn't get injured.
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@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...
JB's played 3 (?) games at 12 so I'm not too sure he's proved himself at Test level. That said, he's probably the least-worst option in that position and just being solid and injury-free is a huge improvement on the midfield debacle of the last few years. Midfield is still the weakest area for me.
Agree on picking the best SR players but also take into account whether they can handle the step up. Don't need another Bridge to nowhere.
Midfield is definitely a cause for concern, especially when you factor in the amount of time Fickou, Ringrose, Aki, Farrell et al have had in the saddle.
I think having 2 big lumps in there is the least worst option to borrow your phrase.
Give me Jordie and Rieko over Havili and ALB any day of the week.
I hope you're right, but I have nightmares about JB being exposed as inexperienced by the likes of Ringrose etc. Just make sure JB gets as much game time as possible and pray he doesn't get injured.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...
JB's played 3 (?) games at 12 so I'm not too sure he's proved himself at Test level. That said, he's probably the least-worst option in that position and just being solid and injury-free is a huge improvement on the midfield debacle of the last few years. Midfield is still the weakest area for me.
Agree on picking the best SR players but also take into account whether they can handle the step up. Don't need another Bridge to nowhere.
Midfield is definitely a cause for concern, especially when you factor in the amount of time Fickou, Ringrose, Aki, Farrell et al have had in the saddle.
I think having 2 big lumps in there is the least worst option to borrow your phrase.
Give me Jordie and Rieko over Havili and ALB any day of the week.
I hope you're right, but I have nightmares about JB being exposed as inexperienced by the likes of Ringrose etc. Just make sure JB gets as much game time as possible and pray he doesn't get injured.
I know JB hasn't had as much time as we'd like at 12 at test level, but he's had plenty of experience in the position during his career. He was also a HELL of a lot better than "solid" - I'd say the exact opposite, he was absolutely dominant in his performances there, easily the most influential player on the park and the best we've seen from an AB 12 since the days of Nonu. I'm far less concerned about our midfield then I am our 10.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...
JB's played 3 (?) games at 12 so I'm not too sure he's proved himself at Test level. That said, he's probably the least-worst option in that position and just being solid and injury-free is a huge improvement on the midfield debacle of the last few years. Midfield is still the weakest area for me.
Agree on picking the best SR players but also take into account whether they can handle the step up. Don't need another Bridge to nowhere.
Midfield is definitely a cause for concern, especially when you factor in the amount of time Fickou, Ringrose, Aki, Farrell et al have had in the saddle.
I think having 2 big lumps in there is the least worst option to borrow your phrase.
Give me Jordie and Rieko over Havili and ALB any day of the week.
I hope you're right, but I have nightmares about JB being exposed as inexperienced by the likes of Ringrose etc. Just make sure JB gets as much game time as possible and pray he doesn't get injured.
I know JB hasn't had as much time as we'd like at 12 at test level, but he's had plenty of experience in the position during his career. He was also a HELL of a lot better than "solid" - I'd say the exact opposite, he was absolutely dominant in his performances there, easily the most influential player on the park and the best we've seen from an AB 12 since the days of Nonu. I'm far less concerned about our midfield then I am our 10.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...
JB's played 3 (?) games at 12 so I'm not too sure he's proved himself at Test level. That said, he's probably the least-worst option in that position and just being solid and injury-free is a huge improvement on the midfield debacle of the last few years. Midfield is still the weakest area for me.
Agree on picking the best SR players but also take into account whether they can handle the step up. Don't need another Bridge to nowhere.
Midfield is definitely a cause for concern, especially when you factor in the amount of time Fickou, Ringrose, Aki, Farrell et al have had in the saddle.
I think having 2 big lumps in there is the least worst option to borrow your phrase.
Give me Jordie and Rieko over Havili and ALB any day of the week.
I hope you're right, but I have nightmares about JB being exposed as inexperienced by the likes of Ringrose etc. Just make sure JB gets as much game time as possible and pray he doesn't get injured.
I know JB hasn't had as much time as we'd like at 12 at test level, but he's had plenty of experience in the position during his career. He was also a HELL of a lot better than "solid" - I'd say the exact opposite, he was absolutely dominant in his performances there, easily the most influential player on the park and the best we've seen from an AB 12 since the days of Nonu. I'm far less concerned about our midfield then I am our 10.
Was about to post the same. JB and RI are a very good combination, hopefully we don't have to worry about who the backups are.
We pretty much have a tiny chance of winning the WC with RM as the ten. He's a dominant Super Rugby player and a non-entity at Test level against anyone but the minnows.
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And before the Cantab mafia come for me (cough, cough Stargazer), I'm leaning towards DMac, not BB.
He also makes mistakes, but is a better tackler, has a longer kicking game and runs straight which is even more important at the higher level. RM's main attacking strategy of running sideways (or even backwards) until he finds a mismatch is completely useless when there isn't a mismatch.
I like the idea of disrupting all the opposition plans on how to isolate RM by selecting DMac and either Sullivan or Stevenson at fullback. Be bold and go win the thing.
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And before the Cantab mafia come for me (cough, cough Stargazer), I'm leaning towards DMac, not BB.
He also makes mistakes, but is a better tackler, has a longer kicking game and runs straight which is even more important at the higher level. RM's main attacking strategy of running sideways (or even backwards) until he finds a mismatch is completely useless when there isn't a mismatch.
I like the idea of disrupting all the opposition plans on how to isolate RM by selecting DMac and either Sullivan or Stevenson at fullback. Be bold and go win the thing.
@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2023:
And before the Cantab mafia come for me (cough, cough Stargazer), I'm leaning towards DMac, not BB.
He also makes mistakes, but is a better tackler, has a longer kicking game and runs straight which is even more important at the higher level. RM's main attacking strategy of running sideways (or even backwards) until he finds a mismatch is completely useless when there isn't a mismatch.
I like the idea of disrupting all the opposition plans on how to isolate RM by selecting DMac and either Sullivan or Stevenson at fullback. Be bold and go win the thing.
Hook this post into my veins .
Let’s roll the fakkin dice.
