All Blacks 2023
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
I think it is more concerning many in nz rugby use this as a tactic, too often.
Even if executed better most often it is a low % play anyway, but the execution is often not there as well.
I
Not just NZ, club game on the weekend, had come back from 0-14 to be 19-21 with 5 to go....they were out of gas, just had to work out way back up field...and had three separate players try kick passes, grubbers or chip kicks....in our around our own 22!
I have been flogging a dead horse on this topic for years. We need to find a solution for the fact that in the modern rugby structure we don't get young 10s learning their trade through clubs, pass down knowledge etc. Schools encourage use of size mismatch at that age over tactical nous and breaking down a team. 10s can still look good if their ball skills and/or running skills are high but their 'trade' knowledge is low and not ingrained as an instinct when playing at higher levels.
Good tactical kicking can be a long term plan in a game but 10s need to be told what to do and when to do it.
I equate 10 play in some games to bolwing in cricket. You aren't looking for success every ball but setting a trap.@Crucial we were going nuts on the sideline, the reason im not an actual coach is i would have gone on after the game and actually called out those players i was so mad
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@Crucial we were going nuts on the sideline, the reason im not an actual coach is i would have gone on after the game and actually called out those players i was so mad
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial we were going nuts on the sideline, the reason im not an actual coach is i would have gone on after the game and actually called out those players i was so mad
I have gone nuts since 2019 on the All Blacks doing the same thing again and again. That test loss in 2021 against SA stands out because F.Steyn came in late and ripped the ABs arsehole with some beautiful kicks that pinned us in our 22. Our response was more headless chook shit. It is all the way through the NZ game, it seems. Contrast that to the way, Ireland especially, use tactical kicking for territory gain, exiting the danger zones, etc.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial we were going nuts on the sideline, the reason im not an actual coach is i would have gone on after the game and actually called out those players i was so mad
I have gone nuts since 2019 on the All Blacks doing the same thing again and again. That test loss in 2021 against SA stands out because F.Steyn came in late and ripped the ABs arsehole with some beautiful kicks that pinned us in our 22. Our response was more headless chook shit. It is all the way through the NZ game, it seems. Contrast that to the way, Ireland especially, use tactical kicking for territory gain, exiting the danger zones, etc.
@Old-Samurai-Jack and when we have weapons like RI, Reece (when fit), clarke (looks like he should be able too), jordan etc....im not sure the 10 needs to be DC circa 2005...you need someone that can either get the ball wide quick to create space or you need to bag it into the corners and put pressure on
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@Old-Samurai-Jack and when we have weapons like RI, Reece (when fit), clarke (looks like he should be able too), jordan etc....im not sure the 10 needs to be DC circa 2005...you need someone that can either get the ball wide quick to create space or you need to bag it into the corners and put pressure on
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack and when we have weapons like RI, Reece (when fit), clarke (looks like he should be able too), jordan etc....im not sure the 10 needs to be DC circa 2005...you need someone that can either get the ball wide quick to create space or you need to bag it into the corners and put pressure on
See what DMac did in the game last week to get the Chiefs into the Saders corner in the last few minutes.
Slow turnover ball to Chiefs but instead of a hasty hoof down field he came up from fullback and passed the ball wide to get it out into space where Narawa had time to chip long down the tram tracks. That alone nearly resulted in a great try but even without the offload being possible the pressure was put on down in the corner and eventually the match sealing try scored.
The commentators painted it as taking a risk off slow ball but the bigger risk would have been a kick from Gatland which would have left Narawa and DMac defending a big openside. I don't know if the play was Gatland's doing or DMac's call but I would think the latter. Just great decision making and reading the options. -
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial we were going nuts on the sideline, the reason im not an actual coach is i would have gone on after the game and actually called out those players i was so mad
I have gone nuts since 2019 on the All Blacks doing the same thing again and again. That test loss in 2021 against SA stands out because F.Steyn came in late and ripped the ABs arsehole with some beautiful kicks that pinned us in our 22. Our response was more headless chook shit. It is all the way through the NZ game, it seems. Contrast that to the way, Ireland especially, use tactical kicking for territory gain, exiting the danger zones, etc.
@Old-Samurai-Jack yeah, kicking accuracy is one thing, but it is also the chasers putting pressure on the kick, reducing options, whereas alot of our kicks have been aimless with a poor chase, this and the attacking kicks it seems often these are done without everyone on the same page, meaning we get so little out of them or worse, end up worse off.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack yeah, kicking accuracy is one thing, but it is also the chasers putting pressure on the kick, reducing options, whereas alot of our kicks have been aimless with a poor chase, this and the attacking kicks it seems often these are done without everyone on the same page, meaning we get so little out of them or worse, end up worse off.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack yeah, kicking accuracy is one thing, but it is also the chasers putting pressure on the kick, reducing options, whereas alot of our kicks have been aimless with a poor chase, this and the attacking kicks it seems often these are done without everyone on the same page, meaning we get so little out of them or worse, end up worse off.
Agree but you don't have to chase each time if kicking to a plan.
eg let's say that you have observed that the opposition D line usually includes one of the back three. If you kick to that vacant space, even though it is covered, you put a little doubt in that player's mind and moreso a desire to be back to support a counter. Do it a few times and wait until the player is triggered and the defence structure compromised. They go into a half position of indecision and are compromised as a defender. That;s when you target the spot with a cut out pass.
It looks like aimless kicking but isn't
Our problem is that we aren't good enough or consistent enough to pull that off, or like you say, don't have everyone on the same page. -
Smith
DMAC
Rieko ?? Not 13? Another wing?
Jordie
Aumua/Ioane
Stevenson/Narawa
Jordan/SullivanI'd be happy with that. Maybe Narawa or Sullivan off the bench.
5.5% chance of seeing the above at RWC though. -
Smith
DMAC
Rieko ?? Not 13? Another wing?
Jordie
Aumua/Ioane
Stevenson/Narawa
Jordan/SullivanI'd be happy with that. Maybe Narawa or Sullivan off the bench.
5.5% chance of seeing the above at RWC though.@nostrildamus i think i could get excited about seeing something new, something coming off the back of good super build up
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@nostrildamus i think i could get excited about seeing something new, something coming off the back of good super build up
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus i think i could get excited about seeing something new, something coming off the back of good super build up
Speed, size and flair!
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Smith
DMAC
Rieko ?? Not 13? Another wing?
Jordie
Aumua/Ioane
Stevenson/Narawa
Jordan/SullivanI'd be happy with that. Maybe Narawa or Sullivan off the bench.
5.5% chance of seeing the above at RWC though.@nostrildamus Fainga'anuku is the form (left) winger. Was excellent again v Chiefs. He's been really good under the high ball, too. I'd keep Rieko in the midfield.
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@nostrildamus Fainga'anuku is the form (left) winger. Was excellent again v Chiefs. He's been really good under the high ball, too. I'd keep Rieko in the midfield.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus Fainga'anuku is the form (left) winger. Was excellent again v Chiefs. He's been really good under the high ball, too. I'd keep Rieko in the midfield.
Does Narawa play both sides? Right really suits him and he is the overall form winger but right wing seems to be the spot for the wing/fullback and likely to be Jordan or Stevenson.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack yeah, kicking accuracy is one thing, but it is also the chasers putting pressure on the kick, reducing options, whereas alot of our kicks have been aimless with a poor chase, this and the attacking kicks it seems often these are done without everyone on the same page, meaning we get so little out of them or worse, end up worse off.
Agree but you don't have to chase each time if kicking to a plan.
eg let's say that you have observed that the opposition D line usually includes one of the back three. If you kick to that vacant space, even though it is covered, you put a little doubt in that player's mind and moreso a desire to be back to support a counter. Do it a few times and wait until the player is triggered and the defence structure compromised. They go into a half position of indecision and are compromised as a defender. That;s when you target the spot with a cut out pass.
It looks like aimless kicking but isn't
Our problem is that we aren't good enough or consistent enough to pull that off, or like you say, don't have everyone on the same page.@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
if kicking to a plan
well, purely from my perspective, the last couple of seasons, that would be the problem as we didnt seem to have one, or if we did, it didnt seem like we were playing the same one....
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
if kicking to a plan
well, purely from my perspective, the last couple of seasons, that would be the problem as we didnt seem to have one, or if we did, it didnt seem like we were playing the same one....
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
if kicking to a plan
well, purely from my perspective, the last couple of seasons, that would be the problem as we didnt seem to have one, or if we did, it didnt seem like we were playing the same one....
I agree that our kicking game hasn't been effective but without knowing what any plan is it is hard to judge the reasons. Again like cricket you can't see if a bowlers plans are thwarted or there's poor execution and usually don't know how the trap was set unless someone smart points in out in game analysis.
Way too often our instinct seems to be to put up a 50/50 and hope to get it back. That's not a plan but is what shits me.
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Foster has made noises that outside back is one spot he feels a form player crack the team.
My sense is that there will be a few players given chances and may the best man(men) win. Similar to 2015 where NMS, Piutau, Naholo etc were all given opportunities
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With the emergence of Shaun Stevenson, Will Jordan and Zarn Sullivan as 15 options, BB's starting position has to be in mortal danger.
Then again Foster might give him 4 games to "play himself into form" because class is permanent of something like that and then say the other options don't have experience for the World Cup games.
For once in your life, be bold Fozzie.
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@nostrildamus Fainga'anuku is the form (left) winger. Was excellent again v Chiefs. He's been really good under the high ball, too. I'd keep Rieko in the midfield.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus Fainga'anuku is the form (left) winger. Was excellent again v Chiefs. He's been really good under the high ball, too. I'd keep Rieko in the midfield.
thanks, forgot about him I'd keep Ioane at 13 too. Aumua isn't young but I don't even know if he is considering ABs let alone how they'd build a good combo in time!
Edit: well maybe Aumua is keen on the ABs
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/levi-aumua-knocking-at-the-door-for-all-blacks-selection/
Parsons: "From my understanding, Levi made it very clear that he wanted to be up for selection for this team and obviously the All Blacks as well so he’s obviously motivated by that, he’s performing extremely well, (he) was player of the year for Moana Pasifika.” -
With the emergence of Shaun Stevenson, Will Jordan and Zarn Sullivan as 15 options, BB's starting position has to be in mortal danger.
Then again Foster might give him 4 games to "play himself into form" because class is permanent of something like that and then say the other options don't have experience for the World Cup games.
For once in your life, be bold Fozzie.
@Frank said in All Blacks 2023:
With the emergence of Shaun Stevenson, Will Jordan and Zarn Sullivan as 15 options, BB's starting position has to be in mortal danger.
Then again Foster might give him 4 games to "play himself into form" because class is permanent of something like that and then say the other options don't have experience for the World Cup games.
For once in your life, be bold Fozzie.
I think that’s got to be one of THE stupidest sporting cliches ever. The trick for any top sportsman is knowing when to go out on top. There’s untold examples of guys going on too long and risking tarnishing their legacies ( boxers probably the most obvious examples )
Then again this AB team has quite a few guys running that risk. Losing that vital split second of pace is devastating at that level. Alongside BB the likes of Cane, Coles and Taylor spring to mind. Younger but more injury prone guys like Goodhue and ALB do too.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
Can you imagine if RM and DH did that in an AB test? Fozzie would get vilified.
That’s because he doesn’t know how to use the Saders players properly though. Nothing to do with them being shit.
A decent coach would have got rid of that rubbish@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
Can you imagine if RM and DH did that in an AB test? Fozzie would get vilified.
That’s because he doesn’t know how to use the Saders players properly though. Nothing to do with them being shit.
A decent coach would have got rid of that rubbishAccording to your words, since it was Richie Mo'unga who executed this kick, then his coach is not decent. That's a shame because he is the future coach of the All Blacks after all.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
Can you imagine if RM and DH did that in an AB test? Fozzie would get vilified.
That’s because he doesn’t know how to use the Saders players properly though. Nothing to do with them being shit.
A decent coach would have got rid of that rubbishAccording to your words, since it was Richie Mo'unga who executed this kick, then his coach is not decent. That's a shame because he is the future coach of the All Blacks after all.
@cgrant said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
Can you imagine if RM and DH did that in an AB test? Fozzie would get vilified.
That’s because he doesn’t know how to use the Saders players properly though. Nothing to do with them being shit.
A decent coach would have got rid of that rubbishAccording to your words, since it was Richie Mo'unga who executed this kick, then his coach is not decent. That's a shame because he is the future coach of the All Blacks after all.
I’m glad someone understood the joke.
