AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP
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@Chris-B Think the other two people entrusted with the whistle (to use the word referee would by a complete misdescription!) were Ian Gourlay and Piet Robertse
@Higgins said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
Piet Robertse
Or "Oom Piet" as Bok Captain Morne du Plessis referred to him.
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@MN5 That's my memory as well - that Don was usually the biggest.
On the kicking thing, while it's true that the balls, boots, etc were more difficult - the key thing was, I'm pretty sure, the relative amount of practice and technical proficiency of the kickers.
Here's what McLean has to say in 1964:
"...goalkicking these days is reducible to a simple study of aim, body balance and leverage and to practice comparable with that which a low handicap golfer gives to his hitting with woods and irons. For the British to point the finger at Clarke and to ask, after one of his great days, "Yes, but was this really rugby?" was to point the finger at the laziness and/or ineptitude of their own players. One hears again their cry, "Of course we don't play our Rugby that way". But, why not? The goalkick in Rugby is the long putt in golf or the push through midwicket in cricket - something infinitely exasperating to the other side but wonderfully profitable when it is done by your team."
I'll see if I can fish out what he had to say about our goal-kicking in 1976 - I recall JJ Stewart had a bit of a whinge at the end of the tour about kicking vs running rugby, something about let's all give up and go to the beach - and I think TP didn't have much sympathy.
On the coaching thing - it was very much related to the amateur vs professional thing - and league vs union. Coaching was a step towards professionalism, which was an anathema to the traditionalists. There used to be rules that home test teams couldn't assemble until two days before the test....to discourage them from practicing! Provincial teams that played warm-ups before playing a touring side were frowned upon, etc, etc...
McLean's books are fascinating to read some of this history.
@Chris-B
I remember reading in one of my Dad's old books that Clarke had a success rate of around 75% on conversions. If my memory is correct, that's bloody good and up with the best when you take into account tees, balls etc.
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@Chris-B Think the other two people entrusted with the whistle (to use the word referee would by a complete misdescription!) were Ian Gourlay and Piet Robertse
@Higgins Looking up McLean - I think Gourlay did the first and Gert did the other three. I see a reference to Piet pissing the ABs off in one of the early matches by warning Whiting about his lineout technique in the tunnel before the game (among other things).
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@Higgins Looking up McLean - I think Gourlay did the first and Gert did the other three. I see a reference to Piet pissing the ABs off in one of the early matches by warning Whiting about his lineout technique in the tunnel before the game (among other things).
@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@Higgins Looking up McLean - I think Goulay did the first and Gert did the other three. I see a reference to Piet pissing the ABs off in one of the early matches by warning Whiting about his lineout technique in the tunnel before the game (among other things).
Looks like Robbertse dudded us in the 1970 tour but something keeps needling me about him doing something irksome during the 1976 Tour as well. Anyway in those days they were all as "challenging" as each other.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/south-african-ref-bad-news-for-all-blacks/FELJFOF6KV7P6UQC5HRWI6IGFE/EDIT: We lost twice with him on the whistle in Tests in 1970 whilst Northern Transvaal nutted us 29 - 27 under his control in 1976. He had blotted his copybook when the ABs managed to tip Eastern Province over earlier on that '76 Tour but he sure rectified matters in the Northern Transvaal game a month or so later!
https://www.rugbydatabase.co.nz/referee/refereeTeams.php?teamId=3&refereeId=652 -
@Chris-B
I remember reading in one of my Dad's old books that Clarke had a success rate of around 75% on conversions. If my memory is correct, that's bloody good and up with the best when you take into account tees, balls etc.
@Victor-Meldrew Be interesting if you can find that.
The stats I quoted earlier were part of McLean pointing out how much worse Don had become - but, he's way better percentage-wise at conversions than penalties - so if you translate his 50% career goal-kicking rate to the conversions vs penalties rates on this tour, he'd certainly be comfortably over 60 percent on conversions.
Not sure what rate modern kickers make conversions at - the best over 80% I'd guess?
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@Victor-Meldrew Be interesting if you can find that.
The stats I quoted earlier were part of McLean pointing out how much worse Don had become - but, he's way better percentage-wise at conversions than penalties - so if you translate his 50% career goal-kicking rate to the conversions vs penalties rates on this tour, he'd certainly be comfortably over 60 percent on conversions.
Not sure what rate modern kickers make conversions at - the best over 80% I'd guess?
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A nice write up.
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@Catogrande said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@Dan54 That 1976 tour reminds me of how the likes of JJ Stewart hadn't yet appreciated the importance of goal kicking - the Jaapies were well ahead of us in picking Gerald Bosch.
Cough. Cough. Don Clarke. Cough.
We'd forgotten.
Our test goal-kickers on that tour were Williams and Going, who were pretty much 30 percent men by today's standards.
Laurie Mains was the only decent kicker on the tour, but was perceived to be too slow in general play and Kit Fawcett - better kicker than the other two, but too flaky.
A while ago I re-read one of Terry McLean's books where he put up some kicking stats for Don. He's miles short of good modern kickers.
@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
Laurie Mains was the only decent kicker on the tour, but was perceived to be too slow in general play and Kit Fawcett - better kicker than the other two, but too flaky.
Number of factors
We had really bought into running rugby as a concept after being embarrased by the 71 Lions. Kicking was for nancies.
There weren't that many contenders. Karam had gone to league
Mains was too slow, Fawcett flaky but got into the side because Colin Farrell had a mare in his second test.
Richard Wilson went to Argentina under Mourie at the same time as the SA tour and was a decent kicker but he was kept out of the Canterbury side for years by the 1,000 year old Fergie and so was considered too green (but they took a punt on Fawcett) Greg
RollersonRowlands [thanks @Chris-B for correction] was a decent kicker but was considered too small (70 kgs)Bevan Wilson looked like the answer when he debuted in 77 against the Lions but was permanently injured. McKechnie also debuted in 77 and was an OK kicker but more of a utility and both he and both Wilsons were too inexperienced in 76
It is almost 50 years ago but I don't think JJ had that many options.
What I can recall vividly is just how outstanding Robertson was. Seemed to have all the time in the world. As someone said Conrad with wheels. Would have thrived in the modern game.
RIP
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@Chris-B I think that whichever way you look at it, Don Clarke was, for his day, a phenomenal kicker.
@Catogrande said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@Chris-B I think that whichever way you look at it, Don Clarke was, for his day, a phenomenal kicker.
Not disagreeing with that!
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@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
Laurie Mains was the only decent kicker on the tour, but was perceived to be too slow in general play and Kit Fawcett - better kicker than the other two, but too flaky.
Number of factors
We had really bought into running rugby as a concept after being embarrased by the 71 Lions. Kicking was for nancies.
There weren't that many contenders. Karam had gone to league
Mains was too slow, Fawcett flaky but got into the side because Colin Farrell had a mare in his second test.
Richard Wilson went to Argentina under Mourie at the same time as the SA tour and was a decent kicker but he was kept out of the Canterbury side for years by the 1,000 year old Fergie and so was considered too green (but they took a punt on Fawcett) Greg
RollersonRowlands [thanks @Chris-B for correction] was a decent kicker but was considered too small (70 kgs)Bevan Wilson looked like the answer when he debuted in 77 against the Lions but was permanently injured. McKechnie also debuted in 77 and was an OK kicker but more of a utility and both he and both Wilsons were too inexperienced in 76
It is almost 50 years ago but I don't think JJ had that many options.
What I can recall vividly is just how outstanding Robertson was. Seemed to have all the time in the world. As someone said Conrad with wheels. Would have thrived in the modern game.
RIP
@dogmeat Yeah - the loss of Karam was massive. We didn't really replace him adequately until the advent of Hewson.
McLean says neither Laurie nor Fawcett should have been picked - he suggests Greg Rowlands (the little guy) and Bob Barrell would have been better options. McLean apparently couldn't stomach Fawcett and reckons none of the ABs could.
He says towards the end of the tour Robertson rated as "the finest back in South Africa".
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@dogmeat Yeah - the loss of Karam was massive. We didn't really replace him adequately until the advent of Hewson.
McLean says neither Laurie nor Fawcett should have been picked - he suggests Greg Rowlands (the little guy) and Bob Barrell would have been better options. McLean apparently couldn't stomach Fawcett and reckons none of the ABs could.
He says towards the end of the tour Robertson rated as "the finest back in South Africa".
@Chris-B
I'd forgotten about Bob Barrell. I think he was penciled in to go but had a bad final trial and Mains took his place.
the other Bob that was kicking prolifically at NPC level was Counties Lendrum. He would surely have been a better option than Laurie or 'I'm going to score more off the field than on it" Fawcett, but Lendrum was never forgiven for letting the ball bounce and conceding the winning try at home against England in 73.
Scapegoating of the highest order as the AB's lost 3/4 games on their internal tour - also against the Juniors and a Presidents XV - with Karam at fullback!
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@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
Laurie Mains was the only decent kicker on the tour, but was perceived to be too slow in general play and Kit Fawcett - better kicker than the other two, but too flaky.
Number of factors
We had really bought into running rugby as a concept after being embarrased by the 71 Lions. Kicking was for nancies.
There weren't that many contenders. Karam had gone to league
Mains was too slow, Fawcett flaky but got into the side because Colin Farrell had a mare in his second test.
Richard Wilson went to Argentina under Mourie at the same time as the SA tour and was a decent kicker but he was kept out of the Canterbury side for years by the 1,000 year old Fergie and so was considered too green (but they took a punt on Fawcett) Greg
RollersonRowlands [thanks @Chris-B for correction] was a decent kicker but was considered too small (70 kgs)Bevan Wilson looked like the answer when he debuted in 77 against the Lions but was permanently injured. McKechnie also debuted in 77 and was an OK kicker but more of a utility and both he and both Wilsons were too inexperienced in 76
It is almost 50 years ago but I don't think JJ had that many options.
What I can recall vividly is just how outstanding Robertson was. Seemed to have all the time in the world. As someone said Conrad with wheels. Would have thrived in the modern game.
RIP
Pretty much spot-on analysis except Farrell debuted in '77 against the B& I Lions. The selectors took a punt on Farrell but he was pilloried (unfairly IMHO) and dumped for the 3rd Test when Bevan Wilson came in at 15 - for the 1st time in years we had a goal-kicker.
Robertson was immense in that series and that 3rd Test for me was his best in Black. He really did have the full bag of tricks.
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From Counties Facebook:
Iconic former Counties Manukau and All Blacks centre Bruce Robertson will be farewelled at Navigation Homes Stadium in Pukekohe on Thursday, May 18 at 11am.
It is the wishes of the Steelers centurion’s family that his funeral service is held at the ground where he shone as a player between 1971 and 1982.
The service will take place in the Phil Kingsley Jones Lounge with additional seating in the grandstand for the likely overflow of people wanting to pay their respects.
Bruce, an Ardmore Rugby Club legend, will also be lying in state at the club’s Pulman Park headquarters from 10am-7pm on Tuesday, May 16 and Wednesday, May 17.
All who wish to pay their respects are welcome at the Ardmore Marist Clubrooms this week.
Following Robertson’s funeral service on Thursday, the family would like to invite guests to remain at Navigation Homes Stadium for refreshments. -
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@dogmeat Yeah - the loss of Karam was massive. We didn't really replace him adequately until the advent of Hewson.
McLean says neither Laurie nor Fawcett should have been picked - he suggests Greg Rowlands (the little guy) and Bob Barrell would have been better options. McLean apparently couldn't stomach Fawcett and reckons none of the ABs could.
He says towards the end of the tour Robertson rated as "the finest back in South Africa".
@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@dogmeat Yeah - the loss of Karam was massive. We didn't really replace him adequately until the advent of Hewson.
McLean says neither Laurie nor Fawcett should have been picked - he suggests Greg Rowlands (the little guy) and Bob Barrell would have been better options. McLean apparently couldn't stomach Fawcett and reckons none of the ABs could.
He says towards the end of the tour Robertson rated as "the finest back in South Africa".
Never quite understood the karam switch to league , I mean he didn’t go to a cashed up Sydney club , he played for Glenora in Auckland, you wouldn’t have thought the money was that great.
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@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@dogmeat Yeah - the loss of Karam was massive. We didn't really replace him adequately until the advent of Hewson.
McLean says neither Laurie nor Fawcett should have been picked - he suggests Greg Rowlands (the little guy) and Bob Barrell would have been better options. McLean apparently couldn't stomach Fawcett and reckons none of the ABs could.
He says towards the end of the tour Robertson rated as "the finest back in South Africa".
Never quite understood the karam switch to league , I mean he didn’t go to a cashed up Sydney club , he played for Glenora in Auckland, you wouldn’t have thought the money was that great.
@kiwiinmelb said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
Never quite understood the karam switch to league , I mean he didn’t go to a cashed up Sydney club , he played for Glenora in Auckland, you wouldn’t have thought the money was that great.
IIRC correctly, he was pissed off with the way he was treated by the NZRFU money-wise and was actually losing money playing rugby and suffering financially. Batty mentions some of the shit players of that period put up with in his book.
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@kiwiinmelb said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
Never quite understood the karam switch to league , I mean he didn’t go to a cashed up Sydney club , he played for Glenora in Auckland, you wouldn’t have thought the money was that great.
IIRC correctly, he was pissed off with the way he was treated by the NZRFU money-wise and was actually losing money playing rugby and suffering financially. Batty mentions some of the shit players of that period put up with in his book.
@Victor-Meldrew said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@kiwiinmelb said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
Never quite understood the karam switch to league , I mean he didn’t go to a cashed up Sydney club , he played for Glenora in Auckland, you wouldn’t have thought the money was that great.
IIRC correctly, he was pissed off with the way he was treated by the NZRFU money-wise and was actually losing money playing rugby and suffering financially. Batty mentions some of the shit players of that period put up with in his book.
I thought it must’ve been something like that , Auckland league club, although it was a fairly healthy competition with all Nz’s best players playing there , were not exactly wealthy
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I saw that on the brief set of clips shown on The Breakdown for BR they showed the Hika Reid try that we can't find on YT. At the start.
That was a phenomenal try for those days. Look at the wave of players offering support on the break. Offloading, two hand carries, support lines.... -
I saw that on the brief set of clips shown on The Breakdown for BR they showed the Hika Reid try that we can't find on YT. At the start.
That was a phenomenal try for those days. Look at the wave of players offering support on the break. Offloading, two hand carries, support lines....@Crucial said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
That was a phenomenal try for those days. Look at the wave of players offering support on the break. Offloading, two hand carries, support lines....
I think the modern game is way better than the old days, but that sort of try was a lot more common than you'd think. From 1964 AB v Barbarians. Watch the try from 2:12 as an example.
