Super Rugby 2023
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
we fan may also need to lower our expectations for a few years, spread the tallent a bit and over time the over all skill level will come back up
Agree. Some big franchises may have to share some depth around as well, but that can be achieved with a player market. Get a monetary return on players you develop but also bank value for the good ones. .
what ever we do i think we need to commit to it long term (and so we need to pick something that works with that)...the great sporting comps generally have history, we're never going to build that if we keep chopping and changing, adding 1-2 teams every so often can work but the over all structure needs to stay the same, same trophy and name etc
It’s a full reset proposition. I would ditch the “Super” moniker (tarnished), keep existing franchise names and put the other franchises out to market
Super will never stop fiddling because of the make up of countries and governance. Case in point the convicts reneging and not accepting a loss of power in trade for a better comp.@Crucial yeah, ditch super, seems like a weak flex now compared to super 12 days
i'd re brand them all so it at least appeared like everyone was starting from the same point plus we can get rid of the horribly 90's logos/names, remove any stigma from selecting a new team to support in areas being carved out of existing franchises
My first choice is like @Kirwan says, reinvest in the NPC, make it shiny enough to sell but call back to the history thats already there, make the Ranfurly shield a bigger deal (our version of the FA cup)
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@Winger If we consolidate the NPC and Super Rugby teams then drastically reduce costs.
Crucial's idea is terrible. Just spread the talent across the existing top ten NPC sides (with a view to population growth) and leverage the tribalism that's already there.
That gives a spread of talent over areas like Auckland already.
The standard of rugby will be good, and more importantly, entertaining. The key is less is more, for a contact sport you can't have a million games. Solves player burnout at the same time, as well as travel demands.
Have fun Aussie.
@Kirwan I’m happy to hear feedback to my idea (and it is just an off the cuff idea I’m still thinking through)
My concern with the top ten NPC proposal is that it will kill the provinces not in the top 10. The top ten may not have the required geographical spread either.
Most of all, what would the selling point be outside of piddly little NZ? How would it generate enough money to stop a player drain? -
@Crucial yeah, ditch super, seems like a weak flex now compared to super 12 days
i'd re brand them all so it at least appeared like everyone was starting from the same point plus we can get rid of the horribly 90's logos/names, remove any stigma from selecting a new team to support in areas being carved out of existing franchises
My first choice is like @Kirwan says, reinvest in the NPC, make it shiny enough to sell but call back to the history thats already there, make the Ranfurly shield a bigger deal (our version of the FA cup)
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Crucial yeah, ditch super, seems like a weak flex now compared to super 12 days
i'd re brand them all so it at least appeared like everyone was starting from the same point plus we can get rid of the horribly 90's logos/names, remove any stigma from selecting a new team to support in areas being carved out of existing franchises
That could have advantages.
I guess the concern with starting completely fresh is that there is no longer any proven setups or fan groups to attract financiers.
Then again fresh starts does put everyone on a even position. -
@Kirwan I’m happy to hear feedback to my idea (and it is just an off the cuff idea I’m still thinking through)
My concern with the top ten NPC proposal is that it will kill the provinces not in the top 10. The top ten may not have the required geographical spread either.
Most of all, what would the selling point be outside of piddly little NZ? How would it generate enough money to stop a player drain?@Crucial Selling point is no worse that what you've proposed, except NZ provinces will be a stronger competition.
MP, Drua, Japanese, US clubs or players are weaker than most if not all NPC sides bolstered with Super Rugby players and ABs.
The first order of business is a strong and entertaining comp. Second is affordable, streamlined structure that supports player longevitiy and the international pathway.
We can't be all things to all people.
And perhaps there is revenue to be had outside the normal broadcasting model if it can't be sold as a traditional package everywhere, with options online or on Apple TV streaming.
The latter is looking at innovative broadcast options and have been having trouble convincing NFL and MLB to try new things. Let them experiment with Rugby, for a price.
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is the a compromise, give unions the chance to go it alone but if Otago and southland (for example) realise theyre too small to go it alone they can go up as "Otago Southland Rugby"
que central vikings jokes but thats effectively what the Highlanders are hiding behind a different logo and it worked for Ta$man
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@Crucial Selling point is no worse that what you've proposed, except NZ provinces will be a stronger competition.
MP, Drua, Japanese, US clubs or players are weaker than most if not all NPC sides bolstered with Super Rugby players and ABs.
The first order of business is a strong and entertaining comp. Second is affordable, streamlined structure that supports player longevitiy and the international pathway.
We can't be all things to all people.
And perhaps there is revenue to be had outside the normal broadcasting model if it can't be sold as a traditional package everywhere, with options online or on Apple TV streaming.
The latter is looking at innovative broadcast options and have been having trouble convincing NFL and MLB to try new things. Let them experiment with Rugby, for a price.
@Kirwan said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Crucial Selling point is no worse that what you've proposed, except NZ provinces will be a stronger competition.
MP, Drua, Japanese, US clubs or players are weaker than most if not all NPC sides bolstered with Super Rugby players and ABs.
The first order of business is a strong and entertaining comp. Second is affordable, streamlined structure that supports player longevitiy and the international pathway.
We can't be all things to all people.
And perhaps there is revenue to be had outside the normal broadcasting model if it can't be sold as a traditional package everywhere, with options online or on Apple TV streaming.
The latter is looking at innovative broadcast options and have been having trouble convincing NFL and MLB to try new things. Let them experiment with Rugby, for a price.
Maybe my idea wasn’t explained well enough as what you are describing isn’t quite what I had in mind.
The extra franchises would be NZ based (unless Oz wanted to run one from there eg reverse Warriors situation)
The link to Us/Japan markets comes from recruitment from those countries to help fill rosters. Totally up to the franchise how they want to position themselves, but it may make some sense for marketing if you picked a few overseas stars and played some pre season stuff somewhere else.
I like the broadcast ideas, that would possibly fit in nicely -
Expand the number of NZ teams, keep Drua and Moana (move to Samoa) in our comp. Split the Blues, Chiefs, Hurricanes, possibly Crusaders. Encourage private funding. Have the traditional provincial comp as the next tier and play along side with a later start. Could have a Champions cup and next tier cup to involve other countries.
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lol jesus christ rugby, why do you hate yourself? Just as Super Rugby showed signs of coming back to life, we get this shit again? Too many fucking egos in the board rooms of rugby codes in Australasia who just love hearing themselves talk.
On the structure, i was only thinking the other day that the Super level may have sorted itself, so we could look to build under it.
Why can't we follow the league model? (i know that's a dicey comment in a rugby dominated forum). Rugby League runs all three levels at the same time, and they flow through each other. Why can't rugby? Why can't club, NPC and Super all happen at the same time? And have players flow through?Look at league, and lets use here in Cairns as an example, a region of 150,000 people. We have an 11-club local league comp (currently having its bolstered by 3 recently top level rep-level players). Level 1
We also have the Northern Pride, playing in the Q-Cup. THat's level 2
And we are (supposedly) a feeder to the Cowboys playing in the NRL. Level 3And players move between levels. Guys not playing for the Pride go back and play Club. Guys not playing for the Cowboys come back and play for the Pride. If the Cowboys want to make change, guys from the Pride go up.
I take that structure and put it in to NZ rugby, to me it makes a lot of sense. Those only interested in the top level get what they get now. Those who want something linked to their home province gets that. Club stuff runs the same time. Players move between levels. It's actually really easy for guys like @Stargazer to follow HB players through the grades (Cairns product Hamiso Tabuai-Fidow from Cairns is playing Origin next week. He followed the process from the Pride's U18s side through to the Cowboys).
It's streamlined, easy to follow, and everything is played at once. Current NPC provinces get aligned to Super rugby sides to spread talent (doesn't have to be geographical, the Melbourne Storm feeders are in Qld). Probably cheaper to run too -
lol jesus christ rugby, why do you hate yourself? Just as Super Rugby showed signs of coming back to life, we get this shit again? Too many fucking egos in the board rooms of rugby codes in Australasia who just love hearing themselves talk.
On the structure, i was only thinking the other day that the Super level may have sorted itself, so we could look to build under it.
Why can't we follow the league model? (i know that's a dicey comment in a rugby dominated forum). Rugby League runs all three levels at the same time, and they flow through each other. Why can't rugby? Why can't club, NPC and Super all happen at the same time? And have players flow through?Look at league, and lets use here in Cairns as an example, a region of 150,000 people. We have an 11-club local league comp (currently having its bolstered by 3 recently top level rep-level players). Level 1
We also have the Northern Pride, playing in the Q-Cup. THat's level 2
And we are (supposedly) a feeder to the Cowboys playing in the NRL. Level 3And players move between levels. Guys not playing for the Pride go back and play Club. Guys not playing for the Cowboys come back and play for the Pride. If the Cowboys want to make change, guys from the Pride go up.
I take that structure and put it in to NZ rugby, to me it makes a lot of sense. Those only interested in the top level get what they get now. Those who want something linked to their home province gets that. Club stuff runs the same time. Players move between levels. It's actually really easy for guys like @Stargazer to follow HB players through the grades (Cairns product Hamiso Tabuai-Fidow from Cairns is playing Origin next week. He followed the process from the Pride's U18s side through to the Cowboys).
It's streamlined, easy to follow, and everything is played at once. Current NPC provinces get aligned to Super rugby sides to spread talent (doesn't have to be geographical, the Melbourne Storm feeders are in Qld). Probably cheaper to run too@mariner4life i guess the first issue with multiple comps at the same time is fans not always being able to watch all levels
right now we have club rugby on at the same time at super rugby....players and their families...you know actual rugby people...cant watch 5pm super games because club rugby doesnt finish till 530....we're currently making it impossible for actual rugby fans to watch the "premier" comp
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@Kirwan said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Crucial Selling point is no worse that what you've proposed, except NZ provinces will be a stronger competition.
MP, Drua, Japanese, US clubs or players are weaker than most if not all NPC sides bolstered with Super Rugby players and ABs.
The first order of business is a strong and entertaining comp. Second is affordable, streamlined structure that supports player longevitiy and the international pathway.
We can't be all things to all people.
And perhaps there is revenue to be had outside the normal broadcasting model if it can't be sold as a traditional package everywhere, with options online or on Apple TV streaming.
The latter is looking at innovative broadcast options and have been having trouble convincing NFL and MLB to try new things. Let them experiment with Rugby, for a price.
Maybe my idea wasn’t explained well enough as what you are describing isn’t quite what I had in mind.
The extra franchises would be NZ based (unless Oz wanted to run one from there eg reverse Warriors situation)
The link to Us/Japan markets comes from recruitment from those countries to help fill rosters. Totally up to the franchise how they want to position themselves, but it may make some sense for marketing if you picked a few overseas stars and played some pre season stuff somewhere else.
I like the broadcast ideas, that would possibly fit in nicely@Crucial said in Super Rugby 2023:
The link to Us/Japan markets comes from recruitment from those countries to help fill rosters. Totally up to the franchise how they want to position themselves, but it may make some sense for marketing if you picked a few overseas stars and played some pre season stuff somewhere else.
A comp wil a number of teams of a similar level to MP would not be high quality. US/Japan level players would be a level below MP IMO.
I like the broadcast ideas, that would possibly fit in nicely
I hope someone in NZR are looking into these sorts of options, if it's obvious to us I'm sure it's obvious to them. This is where Sky being intertwined with NZR is a negative.
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@mariner4life i guess the first issue with multiple comps at the same time is fans not always being able to watch all levels
right now we have club rugby on at the same time at super rugby....players and their families...you know actual rugby people...cant watch 5pm super games because club rugby doesnt finish till 530....we're currently making it impossible for actual rugby fans to watch the "premier" comp
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@mariner4life i guess the first issue with multiple comps at the same time is fans not always being able to watch all levels
right now we have club rugby on at the same time at super rugby....players and their families...you know actual rugby people...cant watch 5pm super games because club rugby doesnt finish till 530....we're currently making it impossible for actual rugby fans to watch the "premier" comp
that's really easy to change. Make club rugby Sunday for instance
And lets be real, the NPC crowds aren't huge now. It's not like 15,000 people are suddenly torn on where to show up.
And people in Tauranga and Napier and New Plymouth don't have anything to go to most of the year any way.
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@Machpants said in Super Rugby 2023:
But Ozzie says...
https://www.theroar.com.au/2023/05/25/super-power-struggle-why-ra-is-pushing-back-on-nzr-and-believe-they-want-to-blow-up-sanzaar/That's written by Doran, who knows nothing about rugby but can be relied upon to put his name to RA's press releases. The NZH article on the other hand is written by Scottish whinger Gregor Paul.
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lol jesus christ rugby, why do you hate yourself? Just as Super Rugby showed signs of coming back to life, we get this shit again? Too many fucking egos in the board rooms of rugby codes in Australasia who just love hearing themselves talk.
On the structure, i was only thinking the other day that the Super level may have sorted itself, so we could look to build under it.
Why can't we follow the league model? (i know that's a dicey comment in a rugby dominated forum). Rugby League runs all three levels at the same time, and they flow through each other. Why can't rugby? Why can't club, NPC and Super all happen at the same time? And have players flow through?Look at league, and lets use here in Cairns as an example, a region of 150,000 people. We have an 11-club local league comp (currently having its bolstered by 3 recently top level rep-level players). Level 1
We also have the Northern Pride, playing in the Q-Cup. THat's level 2
And we are (supposedly) a feeder to the Cowboys playing in the NRL. Level 3And players move between levels. Guys not playing for the Pride go back and play Club. Guys not playing for the Cowboys come back and play for the Pride. If the Cowboys want to make change, guys from the Pride go up.
I take that structure and put it in to NZ rugby, to me it makes a lot of sense. Those only interested in the top level get what they get now. Those who want something linked to their home province gets that. Club stuff runs the same time. Players move between levels. It's actually really easy for guys like @Stargazer to follow HB players through the grades (Cairns product Hamiso Tabuai-Fidow from Cairns is playing Origin next week. He followed the process from the Pride's U18s side through to the Cowboys).
It's streamlined, easy to follow, and everything is played at once. Current NPC provinces get aligned to Super rugby sides to spread talent (doesn't have to be geographical, the Melbourne Storm feeders are in Qld). Probably cheaper to run too@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2023:
On the structure, i was only thinking the other day that the Super level may have sorted itself, so we could look to build under it.
Why can't we follow the league model? (i know that's a dicey comment in a rugby dominated forum). Rugby League runs all three levels at the same time, and they flow through each other. Why can't rugby? Why can't club, NPC and Super all happen at the same time? And have players flow through?That would mean that NPC is deprived of most of its Super Rugby players and local club rugby is deprived of most of its NPC players. That would kill local club rugby even more than all the departures to the MLR. Grassroots rugby in the smaller provinces would die. NPC would be seriously weakened.
It's a big 'no' from me.
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Some good points raised here. There's a real negative attitude in rugby towards Super Rugby that I think is overdone - especially in the media.
Crusaders Chief Executive Colin Mansbridge, who especially hasn’t been afraid to call out journalists he believes are more down on the competition than is warranted. “I think that’s the point [it’s not all bad]. It can always be better, the competition is never going to be perfect,” he said. “I think the problem is that everyone has this very binary mindset. It’s either stuffed or it’s got to be brilliant, and there’s no in-between.” -
The thing that will probably kill.NZ rugby is that so many stakeholders can't see anything that isn't exactly everything they have now, no matter how out of date or disjointed
Based on my very real example I can assure you that club league is as strong as ever.
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Some good points raised here. There's a real negative attitude in rugby towards Super Rugby that I think is overdone - especially in the media.
Crusaders Chief Executive Colin Mansbridge, who especially hasn’t been afraid to call out journalists he believes are more down on the competition than is warranted. “I think that’s the point [it’s not all bad]. It can always be better, the competition is never going to be perfect,” he said. “I think the problem is that everyone has this very binary mindset. It’s either stuffed or it’s got to be brilliant, and there’s no in-between.”@KiwiMurph said in Super Rugby 2023:
Some good points raised here. There's a real negative attitude in rugby towards Super Rugby that I think is overdone - especially in the media.
Crusaders Chief Executive Colin Mansbridge, who especially hasn’t been afraid to call out journalists he believes are more down on the competition than is warranted. “I think that’s the point [it’s not all bad]. It can always be better, the competition is never going to be perfect,” he said. “I think the problem is that everyone has this very binary mindset. It’s either stuffed or it’s got to be brilliant, and there’s no in-between.”Shit, I saw his tweets via a league forum, didn't realise he was CEO of the Crusaders.
@Kirwan said in Super Rugby 2023:
I think the loudest moaners in the press prefer League, so will never be happy
It's weird how much the NZ press loves league. That right wing alternative news thing with Plunket has a sports section that is almost entirely the Warriors.
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As much as I would hate it, the best thing for thr comp is the Brumbies winning tonight
The fact it's very much a 50/50 game should be enough, but a tangible result will be even better.
Stay the fucking course
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As much as I would hate it, the best thing for thr comp is the Brumbies winning tonight
The fact it's very much a 50/50 game should be enough, but a tangible result will be even better.
Stay the fucking course
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@Tim So tiresome. We can expect a response from Mclennan any moment that will have counter-claims.
Bunch of muppets on both sides that only hurts the competition.
