All Blacks 2023
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones So
sportsforums, byyourdefinition, are repetitive?Yes.
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@Bones What a load of nonsense. Squire was consistently awesome and started when fit, unlike Ioane who has been in and out because he has been everything but consistent. You say I overrate Frizell, Squire etc. you majorly overrate Akira Ioane.
@friedrugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones What a load of nonsense. Squire was consistently awesome and started when fit, unlike Ioane who has been in and out because he has been everything but consistent. You say I overrate Frizell, Squire etc. you majorly overrate Akira Ioane.
I think you're missing the point, I don't really rate Ioane at all. In fact, I rate him about as much as Squire. Someone wise once said "let's not rewrite history"....
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@friedrugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew In fairness between 2016-19, Liam Squire played 24 tests and was very good.
No he wasn't. He feasted on a Wallaby team that had a huge player exodus following RWC 2015 and a Bok team in shambles under Coetzee in 2016-17 til Rassie was parachuted in to save the day.
@KiwiMurph Haha if ever the term 'flat track bully' was to be used on someone, it was Liam Squire. You'd see him everywhere when the side was up by 40-50 points, but couldn't find him when the side really needed him to stand up.
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My abiding memory of Squire was the 2016(?) loss to Australia in Brisbane, where he barely hit a tackle, did nothing at the ruck, just stayed on the sideline and was just ghosted on the ruck fringe. Probably the worst AB performance I have seen. Well, outside of Frizell against Argentina in 2020.
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My take on squire ,
Although he was starting ,he felt like a project ,an unfinished product, the cupboard was a bit bare and they thought he had all the physical attributes they wanted and would develop as they went .
Then it started to become obvious the graph wasn’t really going up much
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My take on squire ,
Although he was starting ,he felt like a project ,an unfinished product, the cupboard was a bit bare and they thought he had all the physical attributes they wanted and would develop as they went .
Then it started to become obvious the graph wasn’t really going up much
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2023:
Although he was starting ,he felt like a project ,an unfinished product, the cupboard was a bit bare and they thought he had all the physical attributes they wanted and would develop as they went .
Not just Squire. That epithet could apply to any number of ABs in the 6 role for the last 8 or so years.
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones So
sportsforums, byyourdefinition, are repetitive?Yes.
@Kruse said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones So
sportsforums, byyourdefinition, are repetitive?Yes.
Yes.
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@Kruse said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones So
sportsforums, byyourdefinition, are repetitive?Yes.
Yes.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kruse said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones So
sportsforums, byyourdefinition, are repetitive?Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
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How long have we been looking for a new Kaino or have had a settled 6 - let alone a settled 6/7/8 combination? Beggars belief.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
How long have we been looking for a new Kaino or have had a settled 6 - let alone a settled 6/7/8 combination? Beggars belief.
Does it though?
The way I see it is that they’ve tried a number of players, some given pretty decent stints to come good or fit in. Poor form, injuries, changes at 7 and 8 have all been contributing factors to why we haven’t settled.
Balance of the trio is important and physical attributes are critical, but IMO the blindside position has become the most difficult position to fill in a pack because there’s this mentality of “flexibility” in the position or a horses for courses approach. So often we hear, should it be a bruiser, a workhorse, a 6.5, a lock/6 type because of the lineout, a ranging ball runner.
Look at all the different players we have started there since 2000, Thorne, Randell, Flavell, Collins, Gibbes, Kaino, Lauaki, Rodders, Thomson, Read, Messam, Vito, Luatua, Dixon, Squire, Fifita, Frizell, Akira, Ardie, Barrett, Blackadder, Jacobson.
And not to mention the one offs like Tiatia, MacDonald, Holah, Masoe, McCaw, Papali’i.
Not just the sheer number of different players but the variety of skill sets is pretty different too.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
How long have we been looking for a new Kaino or have had a settled 6 - let alone a settled 6/7/8 combination? Beggars belief.
Does it though?
The way I see it is that they’ve tried a number of players, some given pretty decent stints to come good or fit in. Poor form, injuries, changes at 7 and 8 have all been contributing factors to why we haven’t settled.
Balance of the trio is important and physical attributes are critical, but IMO the blindside position has become the most difficult position to fill in a pack because there’s this mentality of “flexibility” in the position or a horses for courses approach. So often we hear, should it be a bruiser, a workhorse, a 6.5, a lock/6 type because of the lineout, a ranging ball runner.
Look at all the different players we have started there since 2000, Thorne, Randell, Flavell, Collins, Gibbes, Kaino, Lauaki, Rodders, Thomson, Read, Messam, Vito, Luatua, Dixon, Squire, Fifita, Frizell, Akira, Ardie, Barrett, Blackadder, Jacobson.
And not to mention the one offs like Tiatia, MacDonald, Holah, Masoe, McCaw, Papali’i.
Not just the sheer number of different players but the variety of skill sets is pretty different too.
It would work if they stuck with the Kaino McCaw Read (til 2015) types. Core areas:
6. Smashes tackles/rucks, and scares people
7. Steals ball, links, and works hard
8. Can range wide, useful in l/o and fast off the backPaps or Cane cover that 7, Ardie the 8. We need a Kaino type at 6. But in SR and everywhere they swap so much and the roles are blurred that the simplicity of the trio covering different things is now lost in NZ rugby
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It would work if they stuck with the Kaino McCaw Read (til 2015) types. Core areas:
6. Smashes tackles/rucks, and scares people
7. Steals ball, links, and works hard
8. Can range wide, useful in l/o and fast off the backPaps or Cane cover that 7, Ardie the 8. We need a Kaino type at 6. But in SR and everywhere they swap so much and the roles are blurred that the simplicity of the trio covering different things is now lost in NZ rugby
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
It would work if they stuck with the Kaino McCaw Read (til 2015) types. Core areas:
6. Smashes tackles/rucks, and scares people
7. Steals ball, links, and works hard
8. Can range wide, useful in l/o and fast off the backIt would work if we simply had an all time great loose forward trio?
Ardie is nothing like Read and you can't just replace a Kaino - the guy was the prototypical modern 6.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
It would work if they stuck with the Kaino McCaw Read (til 2015) types. Core areas:
6. Smashes tackles/rucks, and scares people
7. Steals ball, links, and works hard
8. Can range wide, useful in l/o and fast off the backIt would work if we simply had an all time great loose forward trio?
Ardie is nothing like Read and you can't just replace a Kaino - the guy was the prototypical modern 6.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
It would work if they stuck with the Kaino McCaw Read (til 2015) types. Core areas:
6. Smashes tackles/rucks, and scares people
7. Steals ball, links, and works hard
8. Can range wide, useful in l/o and fast off the backIt would work if we simply had an all time great loose forward trio?
Ardie is nothing like Read and you can't just replace a Kaino - the guy was the prototypical modern 6.
I'm not saying that they are the same or as good, but what the core roles are. Even during the era of those 3 the 3WM tried Vito, a wide running 8, in 6 for no reason at all. He would have been a better AB the Read if he had been played in the right position, as was shown by his dominance up North. But no, gotta muck with core roles and positions.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
It would work if they stuck with the Kaino McCaw Read (til 2015) types. Core areas:
6. Smashes tackles/rucks, and scares people
7. Steals ball, links, and works hard
8. Can range wide, useful in l/o and fast off the backIt would work if we simply had an all time great loose forward trio?
Ardie is nothing like Read and you can't just replace a Kaino - the guy was the prototypical modern 6.
I'm not saying that they are the same or as good, but what the core roles are. Even during the era of those 3 the 3WM tried Vito, a wide running 8, in 6 for no reason at all. He would have been a better AB the Read if he had been played in the right position, as was shown by his dominance up North. But no, gotta muck with core roles and positions.
@Machpants But at 6 they've tried numerous players that have shown glimpses or the potential of what you describe in core roles etc at lower levels - Squire, Akira, Frizell, Dixon, Blackadder, Jacobson etc with no one grabbing the jersey and making it his.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
How long have we been looking for a new Kaino or have had a settled 6 - let alone a settled 6/7/8 combination? Beggars belief.
Does it though?
The way I see it is that they’ve tried a number of players, some given pretty decent stints to come good or fit in. Poor form, injuries, changes at 7 and 8 have all been contributing factors to why we haven’t settled.
Balance of the trio is important and physical attributes are critical, but IMO the blindside position has become the most difficult position to fill in a pack because there’s this mentality of “flexibility” in the position or a horses for courses approach. So often we hear, should it be a bruiser, a workhorse, a 6.5, a lock/6 type because of the lineout, a ranging ball runner.
Look at all the different players we have started there since 2000, Thorne, Randell, Flavell, Collins, Gibbes, Kaino, Lauaki, Rodders, Thomson, Read, Messam, Vito, Luatua, Dixon, Squire, Fifita, Frizell, Akira, Ardie, Barrett, Blackadder, Jacobson.
And not to mention the one offs like Tiatia, MacDonald, Holah, Masoe, McCaw, Papali’i.
Not just the sheer number of different players but the variety of skill sets is pretty different too.
Good point, but I think we should have settled on a decent 6 (poss. 2 depending on game type) who form an effective unit with 7/8 by now.
Seems we've had almost 2 RWC cycles since we've had any semblance of a settled trio.
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@Machpants But at 6 they've tried numerous players that have shown glimpses or the potential of what you describe in core roles etc at lower levels - Squire, Akira, Frizell, Dixon, Blackadder, Jacobson etc with no one grabbing the jersey and making it his.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants But at 6 they've tried numerous players that have shown glimpses or the potential of what you describe in core roles etc at lower levels - Squire, Akira, Frizell, Dixon, Blackadder, Jacobson etc with no one grabbing the jersey and making it his.
I realise but several of those are not Kaino/Jerry types. So they shouldn't have been tried in 6, elsewhere if they were good enough
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I wonder if anyone on the bubble played themselves in/out of the squad tonight.
The Crusaders did what I expected them to at the breakdown which made Christie ineffective. Nock looked much better.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
I wonder if anyone on the bubble played themselves in/out of the squad tonight.
The Crusaders did what I expected them to at the breakdown which made Christie ineffective. Nock looked much better.
F Christie played himself out.
Faingaanuku played himself in.
Think that's probably the best we can hope for from Foster.
