All Blacks 2023
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It's clearly a shit stat. one dominant tackle per game could be Ardie or Akira scragging Mitch Hunt backwards for a few metres, whereas Sam Cane is making solid contact on big guys 10+ times per game. They may not be knocked backwards, but they're stopped and put down vs gaining momentum. A better stat would be soft-arse scrag tackles. I'm no Cane fluffer, but to pretend that Savea is a better tackler than him based on stats is just a bit silly.
@reprobate pretty sure the metrics to what is considered a dominant tackle were posted many years back, and what you describe wouldn't meet it.
There were numerous variables involved, single tackler, dual tackler, if you were 1st contact, 2nd contact etc, isn't just about moving them metres, or scragging them
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:
But according to Paul Cully this is the key stat that the loosies were selected on.
Putting individuals and specific stats aside, It's good the AB coaches are being clearer at the start of the season what they want to see from players. Explains SS, where it seems he exceled in some areas but needs some work-on's on others
Allows players and SR coaches to know and focus on what needed. Up to them if they do or not, but at least the requirements are clearer.
"We want dominant tackles from you loosies. Nah, not you Shannon, just threaten some chicks and whack one of their mates and you're sweet"
I guess you missed the " Putting individuals and specific stats aside" bit....
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:
But according to Paul Cully this is the key stat that the loosies were selected on.
Putting individuals and specific stats aside, It's good the AB coaches are being clearer at the start of the season what they want to see from players. Explains SS, where it seems he exceled in some areas but needs some work-on's on others
Allows players and SR coaches to know and focus on what needed. Up to them if they do or not, but at least the requirements are clearer.
"We want dominant tackles from you loosies. Nah, not you Shannon, just threaten some chicks and whack one of their mates and you're sweet"
I guess you missed the " Putting individuals and specific stats aside" bit....
You expecting me to read the entirety of a post now?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:
But according to Paul Cully this is the key stat that the loosies were selected on.
Putting individuals and specific stats aside, It's good the AB coaches are being clearer at the start of the season what they want to see from players. Explains SS, where it seems he exceled in some areas but needs some work-on's on others
Allows players and SR coaches to know and focus on what needed. Up to them if they do or not, but at least the requirements are clearer.
"We want dominant tackles from you loosies. Nah, not you Shannon, just threaten some chicks and whack one of their mates and you're sweet"
I guess you missed the " Putting individuals and specific stats aside" bit....
You expecting me to read the entirety of a post now?
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
You expecting me to read the entirety of a post now?
Nah. The first line will do just fine.....
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 you say that like there aren't several AB match threads with loads of comments along the lines of "whats he done?"...normally stats are the counterargument when people cant see what a player provides when theyre just watching....but very few people see what he provides...and the stats dont paint a different picture....
Hey I not against everyone having opinion, and some use stats to back them up, but usually stats don't paint the picture. Even Ediie Jones reckons you can't pick teams without watching players live etc, but he get's them all into camp and see how they actually train before naming team. I reckon the best thing on stats was one I heard Tabi Matson speak about on tv when someone quoted stats to him, he says the ones we have access are of very little use in seeing how players went, and then went into explaining the ones they used, which were way over my head. As I say, doesn't stop us being able to have opinions, just most of ours (mine included) are from seeing a fraction of the picture.
no a single person is saying they dont or you shouldnt watch the game live...almost all of us do...what people are saying is when THEY DO watch...he fails to impress....and then when they look at the stats....they support that he does little impressive
what youre effectively saying is...what he does...cant be quantified...and is also invisible...but its worth it
Reuben Thorne has entered the chat.
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2023:
Reuben Thorne has entered the chat.
But just to find something to lean on..
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For an up and down year, I don't see why selectors still wouldn't want this in their team and to see if they can fix any failings.
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That Paul Cully article was stupid as shit, but he claimed that Sotutu had "inconsistent" seasons over the last two years. Sotutu was the Blues best player last year, when they won 15 games in a row. His defence was excellent. Real garbage take from a terrible "journalist".
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It was a game to erase any doubts, rather than confirm them, particularly for players such as Sotutu who have been in the All Blacks since 2020 without ever developing into a feared defender at Super Rugby level.
Absolutely get fucked, he was one of the best defenders last year. 15 games in a row, and he was the best player in it.
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It's clearly a shit stat. one dominant tackle per game could be Ardie or Akira scragging Mitch Hunt backwards for a few metres, whereas Sam Cane is making solid contact on big guys 10+ times per game. They may not be knocked backwards, but they're stopped and put down vs gaining momentum. A better stat would be soft-arse scrag tackles. I'm no Cane fluffer, but to pretend that Savea is a better tackler than him based on stats is just a bit silly.
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
It's clearly a shit stat. one dominant tackle per game could be Ardie or Akira scragging Mitch Hunt backwards for a few metres, whereas Sam Cane is making solid contact on big guys 10+ times per game. They may not be knocked backwards, but they're stopped and put down vs gaining momentum. A better stat would be soft-arse scrag tackles. I'm no Cane fluffer, but to pretend that Savea is a better tackler than him based on stats is just a bit silly.
Entirely agree with this. Statistics in rugby are irrelevant without context. The eye test, will always be the best way of rating players with the nature of the way rugby works.
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At risk of a Fern flogging,
I'd put Sotutu, Frizzel and Akira in much the same category.. Plenty of opportunities in black and the odd good performance in black.. But a real lack of consistency and none of them have demanded selection based on form... Certainly not this season.That said, Sotutu has Savea and Jacobson ahead of him so always going to be tough, but very surprised he wasn't in the NZ XV.. Did he dump in someone's weetbix?
The whole frizzel and akira situation.. I'm still surprised frizzel is there.. IMO They both have a habbit of going missing in big games.. I feel the Blues questionable tactics of having loosies playing really loose has counted against the individuals concerned as much as it hurt the performance of the team.
Personally I thought Akiras game against the Tahs in the quarters, alone would have put him ahead of Frizzel. He played tighter that game and looked good...its that sort of game I thought the selectors would have loved... Maybe it was "just the tahs???" -
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
It's clearly a shit stat. one dominant tackle per game could be Ardie or Akira scragging Mitch Hunt backwards for a few metres, whereas Sam Cane is making solid contact on big guys 10+ times per game. They may not be knocked backwards, but they're stopped and put down vs gaining momentum. A better stat would be soft-arse scrag tackles. I'm no Cane fluffer, but to pretend that Savea is a better tackler than him based on stats is just a bit silly.
Entirely agree with this. Statistics in rugby are irrelevant without context. The eye test, will always be the best way of rating players with the nature of the way rugby works.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
The eye test, will always be the best way of rating players with the nature of the way rugby works.
..and the eye test was that Shannon has been a lazy shit this year. The bonus is it's backed up by statistics
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If Ardie were to be injured who else would be a closer like for like replacement than Sotutu (recognising that no one would be that close to Ardie)?
@pakman said in All Blacks 2023:
If Ardie were to be injured who else would be a closer like for like replacement than Sotutu (recognising that no one would be that close to Ardie)?
It's a good point. They aren't identical styles but they are playmakers from no 8. It's almost like back in the early 90's talking about constructive and destructive 7's.
But Sotutu wasn't good enough to be in the mix this year
Ardie will likely be the first choice 8 but the balance of the trio really changes if he picks up an injury
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
The eye test, will always be the best way of rating players with the nature of the way rugby works.
..and the eye test was that Shannon has been a lazy shit this year. The bonus is it's backed up by statistics
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@Duluth I don't know if this is an attack on me, but I will once again say that I never said Frizell has been good this year. I wouldn't have picked him in the All Blacks, and said he was diabolical for the Landers lol.
No, it's just in context with the rest of the thread.
Cully made a retarded half argument using stats that conveniently left out one of his favourite players. I pointed that out using the same stats.
Some people then started talking about people relying only on stats.. which is a strawman because no does that, even a simpleton like Cully -
No, it's just in context with the rest of the thread.
Cully made a retarded half argument using stats that conveniently left out one of his favourite players. I pointed that out using the same stats.
Some people then started talking about people relying only on stats.. which is a strawman because no does that, even a simpleton like Cully@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:
No, it's just in context with the rest of the thread.
Cully made a retarded half argument using stats that conveniently left out one of his favourite players. I pointed that out using the same stats.
Some people then started talking about people relying only on stats.. which is a strawman because no does that, even a simpleton like CullyDidn't Cully in his article only focus on No 8 though before he hit his word limit?
From memory (and I'm not going to check) he was talking about Hoskins and compared others at 8? -
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:
No, it's just in context with the rest of the thread.
Cully made a retarded half argument using stats that conveniently left out one of his favourite players. I pointed that out using the same stats.
Some people then started talking about people relying only on stats.. which is a strawman because no does that, even a simpleton like CullyDidn't Cully in his article only focus on No 8 though before he hit his word limit?
From memory (and I'm not going to check) he was talking about Hoskins and compared others at 8?Sure. He did make a general statement about all AB forwards too.
It'd be an interesting argument to drop an number 8 for that reason and not drop a blindside for being even worse
But more importantly he's a twat
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@Mattasaurus said in All Blacks 2023:
From the above article
"From 13 games Jacobson has 17 dominant tackles (numbers courtesy of Opta Sports), one ahead of Scott Barrett. Sotutu isn’t in the top 10.The Blues No 8 is an outstanding carrier, but Jacobson’s inclusion are clear signals that the All Blacks want players who can smash people. "
Here's the opta stats for the end of the regular season
Where's Shannon?
