Super Rugby 2024
-
@Duluth said in Super Rugby 2024:
The reporting on the coaching changes has been unreliable. However there was a report a couple of weeks ago the that Cotter removed himself from consideration for the Crusaders job
It seems to make sense. First, it's hard to argue for Penney over Cotter. Plus Cotter had a more lucrative offer from the Blues, and even more lucrative offers from French clubs
It a fair point isn't it, South Island franchises Highlanders and Crusaders simply can't compete with those cashed up Blues and their third-party deals, there's a reason Leon only coached Ta$man - then abruptly left his Crusaders assistant post after just 1 season for the Blue$ top job citing 'family reasons' lol... Super Rugby isn't exactly a level playing field these days is it?
@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2024:
It a fair point isn't it, South Island franchises Highlanders and Crusaders simply can't compete with those cashed up Blues and their third-party deals, there's a reason Leon only coached Ta$man - then abruptly left his Crusaders assistant post after just 1 season for the Blue$ top job citing 'family reasons' lol... Super Rugby isn't exactly a level playing field these days is it?
Crusaders salary bill would be the largest (b/c they have the most ABs) and it's paid for by NZR. Compare their total salary to the Highlanders, that would be the largest discrepancy (most ABs to fewest)
A top up to a coach, or a player, is fiddling at the edges of the real problems
-
@Duluth said in Super Rugby 2024:
The reporting on the coaching changes has been unreliable. However there was a report a couple of weeks ago the that Cotter removed himself from consideration for the Crusaders job
It seems to make sense. First, it's hard to argue for Penney over Cotter. Plus Cotter had a more lucrative offer from the Blues, and even more lucrative offers from French clubs
It a fair point isn't it, South Island franchises Highlanders and Crusaders simply can't compete with those cashed up Blues and their third-party deals, there's a reason Leon only coached Ta$man - then abruptly left his Crusaders assistant post after just 1 season for the Blue$ top job citing 'family reasons' lol... Super Rugby isn't exactly a level playing field these days is it?
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
-
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
Is Ta$man still a thing for the Saders? There are quite a number of Ta$man players with other franchises too. It should go without saying that I am too lazy to check the numbers myself.
-
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
Is Ta$man still a thing for the Saders? There are quite a number of Ta$man players with other franchises too. It should go without saying that I am too lazy to check the numbers myself.
@Crazy-Horse dont know, possibly less so but it use to be and that helped build the current run of success
-
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
Is Ta$man still a thing for the Saders? There are quite a number of Ta$man players with other franchises too. It should go without saying that I am too lazy to check the numbers myself.
@Crazy-Horse Blackadder, Havili, Jordan, Fainga'anuku, Reece, Springer, Hotham, Sykes-Martin, Q. MacDonald, Strange, Havili-Talitui, Chapman are all playing for Ta$man (if they're not with the ABs).
-
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
The Highlanders coaching has been part of the problem... couldn't get the best out of Lo-Willie, Bower, etc. or help them realize their potential, same could be said for Josh Ioane & co who're now thriving at the Chiefs under McMillan...
The difference between Razor (and say Leon at the Blue$...) is his continual development and progression of his players, in contrast to many All Blacks such as Finlay, Beauden, Akira, Hoskins, RTS, etc.. who have all gone backwards under Leon.
Razor has a unique ability to get the most out of all types of players, no matter how talented they may be, over the years he's developed quite a few limited players into All Blacks & XV members, guys like Brewis, Christie, McAlister, Gardiner, McLeod, Drummond, Bridge, Perry, Ennor, Bower, Lo-Willie, etc.. were/will never be long-term All Blacks. Most of these players wouldn't be talented enough to start for other franchises, Hurricanes, Chiefs, Blues.
Look at guys like Sykes-Martin, Gardiner, O'Neill, Heinz, etc.. contributing off the bench in the playoffs, they certainly don't make the 23 of the other NZ franchises.
Many of those players who have flourished under Razor's coaching have been discards or unwanted by other franchises & have come from nowhere like George Bower. I can't recall Razor signing already developed All Blacks from other franchises.
He's skillful enough to take rough unrefined talent (with limitations that would see them not make other franchises) and still produce diamonds out of them - performances at Super Rugby level. Lio-Willie is another who wasn't even good enough to make the Highlanders 23 and now he's thriving under the superior coaching under Razor.
Unlike Leon's Blues from 2019-2023 where he signed established All Blacks from other franchises - Laulala, Big Carl, Barrett, and their development all stalled.
-
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
The Highlanders coaching has been part of the problem... couldn't get the best out of Lo-Willie, Bower, etc. or help them realize their potential, same could be said for Josh Ioane & co who're now thriving at the Chiefs under McMillan...
The difference between Razor (and say Leon at the Blue$...) is his continual development and progression of his players, in contrast to many All Blacks such as Finlay, Beauden, Akira, Hoskins, RTS, etc.. who have all gone backwards under Leon.
Razor has a unique ability to get the most out of all types of players, no matter how talented they may be, over the years he's developed quite a few limited players into All Blacks & XV members, guys like Brewis, Christie, McAlister, Gardiner, McLeod, Drummond, Bridge, Perry, Ennor, Bower, Lo-Willie, etc.. were/will never be long-term All Blacks. Most of these players wouldn't be talented enough to start for other franchises, Hurricanes, Chiefs, Blues.
Look at guys like Sykes-Martin, Gardiner, O'Neill, Heinz, etc.. contributing off the bench in the playoffs, they certainly don't make the 23 of the other NZ franchises.
Many of those players who have flourished under Razor's coaching have been discards or unwanted by other franchises & have come from nowhere like George Bower. I can't recall Razor signing already developed All Blacks from other franchises.
He's skillful enough to take rough unrefined talent (with limitations that would see them not make other franchises) and still produce diamonds out of them - performances at Super Rugby level. Lio-Willie is another who wasn't even good enough to make the Highlanders 23 and now he's thriving under the superior coaching under Razor.
Unlike Leon's Blues from 2019-2023 where he signed established All Blacks from other franchises - Laulala, Big Carl, Barrett, and their development all stalled.
@kiwi_expat Bower never played for the Highlanders though
-
@kiwi_expat Bower never played for the Highlanders though
@Kiwiwomble depth at prop 2018/19, behind Lomax, Tokolahi, Johnstone, Lienert-Brown, etc.. he played for the development side I think. The point is Razor takes relatively unknown talent and is skillful enough to develop them further than they would've elsewhere.
He maximizes his resources, he doesn't require already developed All Blacks to be successful (unlike Leon) he takes rough unrefined talent and gets them punching well above their weight at SR level.
-
@Kiwiwomble depth at prop 2018/19, behind Lomax, Tokolahi, Johnstone, Lienert-Brown, etc.. he played for the development side I think. The point is Razor takes relatively unknown talent and is skillful enough to develop them further than they would've elsewhere.
He maximizes his resources, he doesn't require already developed All Blacks to be successful (unlike Leon) he takes rough unrefined talent and gets them punching well above their weight at SR level.
Bower was picked up as a injury sub during the season at First then was retained the next year.
Jason Ryan picked him out and schooled him up. -
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
The Highlanders coaching has been part of the problem... couldn't get the best out of Lo-Willie, Bower, etc. or help them realize their potential, same could be said for Josh Ioane & co who're now thriving at the Chiefs under McMillan...
The difference between Razor (and say Leon at the Blue$...) is his continual development and progression of his players, in contrast to many All Blacks such as Finlay, Beauden, Akira, Hoskins, RTS, etc.. who have all gone backwards under Leon.
Razor has a unique ability to get the most out of all types of players, no matter how talented they may be, over the years he's developed quite a few limited players into All Blacks & XV members, guys like Brewis, Christie, McAlister, Gardiner, McLeod, Drummond, Bridge, Perry, Ennor, Bower, Lo-Willie, etc.. were/will never be long-term All Blacks. Most of these players wouldn't be talented enough to start for other franchises, Hurricanes, Chiefs, Blues.
Look at guys like Sykes-Martin, Gardiner, O'Neill, Heinz, etc.. contributing off the bench in the playoffs, they certainly don't make the 23 of the other NZ franchises.
Many of those players who have flourished under Razor's coaching have been discards or unwanted by other franchises & have come from nowhere like George Bower. I can't recall Razor signing already developed All Blacks from other franchises.
He's skillful enough to take rough unrefined talent (with limitations that would see them not make other franchises) and still produce diamonds out of them - performances at Super Rugby level. Lio-Willie is another who wasn't even good enough to make the Highlanders 23 and now he's thriving under the superior coaching under Razor.
Unlike Leon's Blues from 2019-2023 where he signed established All Blacks from other franchises - Laulala, Big Carl, Barrett, and their development all stalled.
@kiwi_expat Lio-Willie was ignored by Otago for too long. Then when the Highlanders did notice him they didn't take his talent seriously. He should have immediately been given a decent contract. Instead, was a cover player. By the time he was on the paddock for us, he was starting, then got injured. At that point he probably made up his mind. Bower, Moorby and Hotham are the other ones where more of an effort should have been made.
-
@kiwi_expat Lio-Willie was ignored by Otago for too long. Then when the Highlanders did notice him they didn't take his talent seriously. He should have immediately been given a decent contract. Instead, was a cover player. By the time he was on the paddock for us, he was starting, then got injured. At that point he probably made up his mind. Bower, Moorby and Hotham are the other ones where more of an effort should have been made.
@SouthernMann how long has Leo-willie been in otago? did he actually come down as a first year so maybe 6 years ago? or was it more recently for rugby?
-
@Duluth said in Super Rugby 2024:
The reporting on the coaching changes has been unreliable. However there was a report a couple of weeks ago the that Cotter removed himself from consideration for the Crusaders job
It seems to make sense. First, it's hard to argue for Penney over Cotter. Plus Cotter had a more lucrative offer from the Blues, and even more lucrative offers from French clubs
It a fair point isn't it, South Island franchises Highlanders and Crusaders simply can't compete with those cashed up Blues and their third-party deals, there's a reason Leon only coached Ta$man - then abruptly left his Crusaders assistant post after just 1 season for the Blue$ top job citing 'family reasons' lol... Super Rugby isn't exactly a level playing field these days is it?
@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2024:
It a fair point isn't it, South Island franchises Highlanders and Crusaders simply can't compete with those cashed up Blues and their third-party deals, there's a reason Leon only coached Ta$man - then abruptly left his Crusaders assistant post after just 1 season for the Blue$ top job citing 'family reasons' lol... Super Rugby isn't exactly a level playing field these days is it?
Sorry mate, but your point about Leon and Ta$man is total bollocks - perpetuated on the Fern by a bunch of financial illiterates and a couple of fuckwits who think they are funny.
On page 28 of this State of the Union report.... https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/nz/Documents/consumer-business/nz-en-2017-state-of-the-unions-report-final.pdf
..you will see in Leon's first year as Head Coach, Ta$man has the fourth lowest team and match-related costs - we finished runner up to Canterbury in the competition, with less than half of their budget. Ta$man occupy a similar position in each of the State of the Union reports except 2018, when we hosted the Argentina test match under a special arrangement with NZ Rugby and our match related expenditures and revenues each jumped by a large amount.
What you actually saw at Ta$man was a masterclass of identification of young talent and team building, by Leon and Kieran Keane.
-
@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2024:
It a fair point isn't it, South Island franchises Highlanders and Crusaders simply can't compete with those cashed up Blues and their third-party deals, there's a reason Leon only coached Ta$man - then abruptly left his Crusaders assistant post after just 1 season for the Blue$ top job citing 'family reasons' lol... Super Rugby isn't exactly a level playing field these days is it?
Sorry mate, but your point about Leon and Ta$man is total bollocks - perpetuated on the Fern by a bunch of financial illiterates and a couple of fuckwits who think they are funny.
On page 28 of this State of the Union report.... https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/nz/Documents/consumer-business/nz-en-2017-state-of-the-unions-report-final.pdf
..you will see in Leon's first year as Head Coach, Ta$man has the fourth lowest team and match-related costs - we finished runner up to Canterbury in the competition, with less than half of their budget. Ta$man occupy a similar position in each of the State of the Union reports except 2018, when we hosted the Argentina test match under a special arrangement with NZ Rugby and our match related expenditures and revenues each jumped by a large amount.
What you actually saw at Ta$man was a masterclass of identification of young talent and team building, by Leon and Kieran Keane.
@Chris-B It's a fair critique of Leon's time at the Blues though - Leon's strength at the Blues has been putting together strong teams on paper (both on the field and in regards to his coaching team). In terms of converting that talent to on field success it's been up and down. For a coach known for his attack the Blues attacking shape has been awfully disappointing this year.
-
@Chris-B It's a fair critique of Leon's time at the Blues though - Leon's strength at the Blues has been putting together strong teams on paper (both on the field and in regards to his coaching team). In terms of converting that talent to on field success it's been up and down. For a coach known for his attack the Blues attacking shape has been awfully disappointing this year.
@KiwiMurph That's a fair assessment at the Blues - he built a good team, but hasn't quite got them over the line (except in the Smash the Aussies version). And they've gone backwards this year. Compared to previous versions of the Blues he's been pretty good, but maybe leaving at the right time.
Razor has picked him and clearly knows what he's getting, so I think that's a pretty solid endorsement.
He also didn't go directly to the Blues - he finished with the Crusaders in 2017 and went to the Blues in 2019, and was only supposed to be an assistant to Tana.
-
@KiwiMurph That's a fair assessment at the Blues - he built a good team, but hasn't quite got them over the line (except in the Smash the Aussies version). And they've gone backwards this year. Compared to previous versions of the Blues he's been pretty good, but maybe leaving at the right time.
Razor has picked him and clearly knows what he's getting, so I think that's a pretty solid endorsement.
He also didn't go directly to the Blues - he finished with the Crusaders in 2017 and went to the Blues in 2019, and was only supposed to be an assistant to Tana.
@Chris-B said in Super Rugby 2024:
Razor has picked him as an assistant coach (alongside another assistant coach who is helping the attack in Holland) and clearly knows what he's getting, so I think that's a pretty solid endorsement as an assistant coach.
Fixed.
-
No ABs. And during the 6 nations v Munster
-
No ABs. And during the 6 nations v Munster
@Winger Yep, Ireland play France (away) on 2 February and England play Wales (home) on 10 February 2024.
These games are played during our preseason, so an under-cooked Crusaders team without ABs and Munster and Bristol Bears teams without their test players (but mid-season).
It will still attract crowds though.
