All Blacks 2023
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
After the shit he got ( on here ) in 2019 I’m amazed that Scott Barrett is the frontrunner for the six jersey to be honest.
The shit wasn't really targeted at SB himself, rather the selectorial decision that saw him wind up playing 6.
Also, Mils was a cracking centre for the Blues in 2003 and it went pear shaped with the more robust Rangi at 13 too. We just need to blanket rule it, no player who has ever worn 15 in a test can play centre.
Does 12 count as centre?
The less educated rugby nations call it "Inside Centre" ...
Most 12s play inside Centre.
@pakman said in All Blacks 2023:
Most 12s play inside Centre.
Would have to be a big hungry centre and a small tasty 12 (continuing the dad joke).
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I'd say plenty of Kiwis actually play as inside centre's. Nonu, for example. SBW too. Men relying on power running as a primary weapon.
That they couldn't play 10 at a pinch is a bit of a giveaway that they're not 5-8
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I'd say plenty of Kiwis actually play as inside centre's. Nonu, for example. SBW too. Men relying on power running as a primary weapon.
That they couldn't play 10 at a pinch is a bit of a giveaway that they're not 5-8
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As it appears I have to explain MY dad joke ...
... the position name in NZ, being the guardians of all that is decent in rugby, is 2nd Five-Eighth.
It does not depend on the player's style.
It is only the more ignorant parts of the world (which is everywhere else) who refer to the 12 as any sort of "centre".
This is the equivalent of "versing" and apostrophe abuse.
Off to the GOM thread...
And get back on topic the lot of you.
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@Chester-Draws Nonu was a great passer of the ball, far better than e.g. Aaron Mauger who most would call a 2nd 5. SBW was just playing league. Neither are great examples.
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chester-Draws Nonu was a great passer of the ball, far better than e.g. Aaron Mauger who most would call a 2nd 5. SBW was just playing league. Neither are great examples.
Nonu could quite literally do it all.
Just as much a one in a generation player as DC or Richie in my opinion. He just took awhile to shake the one dimensional bulldozer stereotype cos he was very good at doing just that too.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chester-Draws Nonu was a great passer of the ball, far better than e.g. Aaron Mauger who most would call a 2nd 5. SBW was just playing league. Neither are great examples.
Nonu could quite literally do it all.
Just as much a one in a generation player as DC or Richie in my opinion. He just took awhile to shake the one dimensional bulldozer stereotype cos he was very good at doing just that too.
@MN5 glad you added the last bit, sometimes i find Nonu gets deified as if he didn't have work ons and didn't have to put in the work to become what he was towards the latter end of his AB career....he was still shit for the Highlanders though
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The slur against SBW about "just playing league" is ridiculous. He was a very good union player, and had he stayed fit, would have been a great.
Dan Carter could do it all too. But when he played in the number 12 jersey, he was definitely a 2nd-5, not centre.
Nonu played straight and hard. That he could also pass didn't make him a 2nd-5 -- it made him a really good inside centre. What he didn't really do was play at first receiver very much, because he wasn't very good at that. He had a good kick for a centre, but he wasn't going to exit to touch with it.
If you think about Carter and Nonu playing the #12 jersey, what about their games was similar? Yes, both good defenders, but in very different ways. Both good runners, but in very different ways. Nonu was not a great punter. Carter not likely to crash through a hole.
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The slur against SBW about "just playing league" is ridiculous. He was a very good union player, and had he stayed fit, would have been a great.
Dan Carter could do it all too. But when he played in the number 12 jersey, he was definitely a 2nd-5, not centre.
Nonu played straight and hard. That he could also pass didn't make him a 2nd-5 -- it made him a really good inside centre. What he didn't really do was play at first receiver very much, because he wasn't very good at that. He had a good kick for a centre, but he wasn't going to exit to touch with it.
If you think about Carter and Nonu playing the #12 jersey, what about their games was similar? Yes, both good defenders, but in very different ways. Both good runners, but in very different ways. Nonu was not a great punter. Carter not likely to crash through a hole.
@Chester-Draws Both excellent readers of the game and excellent distributors is the more important factor.
Jordie Barrett plays more of an inside centre role than Nonu, but he can kick for touch just fine. -
The slur against SBW about "just playing league" is ridiculous. He was a very good union player, and had he stayed fit, would have been a great.
Dan Carter could do it all too. But when he played in the number 12 jersey, he was definitely a 2nd-5, not centre.
Nonu played straight and hard. That he could also pass didn't make him a 2nd-5 -- it made him a really good inside centre. What he didn't really do was play at first receiver very much, because he wasn't very good at that. He had a good kick for a centre, but he wasn't going to exit to touch with it.
If you think about Carter and Nonu playing the #12 jersey, what about their games was similar? Yes, both good defenders, but in very different ways. Both good runners, but in very different ways. Nonu was not a great punter. Carter not likely to crash through a hole.
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks 2023:
The slur against SBW about "just playing league" is ridiculous. He was a
verygood union player, and had he stayedfitplaying union instead of league and boxing and not getting cards,wouldmight have been a great.Dan Carter could do it all too. But when he played in the number 12 jersey, he was definitely a 2nd-5, not centre.
Nonu played straight and hard. That he could also pass didn't make him a 2nd-5 -- it made him a really good inside centre. What he didn't really do was play at first receiver very much, because he wasn't very good at that. He had a good kick for a centre, but he wasn't going to exit to touch with it.
If you think about Carter and Nonu playing the #12 jersey, what about their games was similar? Yes, both good defenders, but in very different ways. Both good runners, but in very different ways. Nonu was not a great punter. Carter not likely to crash through a hole.
FIFY
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The slur against SBW about "just playing league" is ridiculous. He was a very good union player, and had he stayed fit, would have been a great.
Dan Carter could do it all too. But when he played in the number 12 jersey, he was definitely a 2nd-5, not centre.
Nonu played straight and hard. That he could also pass didn't make him a 2nd-5 -- it made him a really good inside centre. What he didn't really do was play at first receiver very much, because he wasn't very good at that. He had a good kick for a centre, but he wasn't going to exit to touch with it.
If you think about Carter and Nonu playing the #12 jersey, what about their games was similar? Yes, both good defenders, but in very different ways. Both good runners, but in very different ways. Nonu was not a great punter. Carter not likely to crash through a hole.
@Chester-Draws Nonu played a lot of first receiver. You're simply wrong on that part. How much did Carter play first receiver when he was playing 12?
Carter was even used an extraordinary amount as second receiver when he was playing first five.
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I have very little memory of Nonu taking exit plays, kicking for distance etc. He might have taken the ball up, but that's pure centre play.
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I have very little memory of Nonu taking exit plays, kicking for distance etc. He might have taken the ball up, but that's pure centre play.
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks 2023:
I have very little memory of Nonu taking exit plays, kicking for distance etc. He might have taken the ball up, but that's pure centre play.
First receiver doesn't just do that.
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The slur against SBW about "just playing league" is ridiculous. He was a very good union player, and had he stayed fit, would have been a great.
Dan Carter could do it all too. But when he played in the number 12 jersey, he was definitely a 2nd-5, not centre.
Nonu played straight and hard. That he could also pass didn't make him a 2nd-5 -- it made him a really good inside centre. What he didn't really do was play at first receiver very much, because he wasn't very good at that. He had a good kick for a centre, but he wasn't going to exit to touch with it.
If you think about Carter and Nonu playing the #12 jersey, what about their games was similar? Yes, both good defenders, but in very different ways. Both good runners, but in very different ways. Nonu was not a great punter. Carter not likely to crash through a hole.
I kinda get the distinction you are drawing between a 2nd 5/8 (playmaker) and an inside centre but Nonu turned into both an outstanding 2nd 5/8 and Inside centre
And some of his kicking was Carter-esque
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I kinda get the distinction you are drawing between a 2nd 5/8 (playmaker) and an inside centre but Nonu turned into both an outstanding 2nd 5/8 and Inside centre
And some of his kicking was Carter-esque
@Victor-Meldrew thats fair but i dont think we got to see that much of it in the AB's jersey, we those AB's clips from the same season? felt like a real late development to his game...a welcome one nonetheless
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I don't agree with it all, but certainly do with this bit
Wayne Smith, Steve Hansen and Graham Henry changed the game, but it’s moved on and it feels like we are playing the same system and doing the same things that weren’t good enough to win the World Cup in 2019.
In schoolboy rugby you find everyone has got the same pod system, the same terminology etc. We have a bit of group think with the style that started with Wayne Smith and Steve Hansen. It did fantastically but we’ve been overtaken.
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I don't agree with it all, but certainly do with this bit
Wayne Smith, Steve Hansen and Graham Henry changed the game, but it’s moved on and it feels like we are playing the same system and doing the same things that weren’t good enough to win the World Cup in 2019.
In schoolboy rugby you find everyone has got the same pod system, the same terminology etc. We have a bit of group think with the style that started with Wayne Smith and Steve Hansen. It did fantastically but we’ve been overtaken.
@Machpants yep, Mike Cron used to run scrum clinics all round the country, getting everyone on the same page, which is Good until it isn't.
You need variety and different ideas that challenge the norm (this is where Razor shows promise) but seems for years now we have simply rested on our laurels of success and NZR have not realised we have drifted from the fast lane into the slow lane.
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@Machpants yep, Mike Cron used to run scrum clinics all round the country, getting everyone on the same page, which is Good until it isn't.
You need variety and different ideas that challenge the norm (this is where Razor shows promise) but seems for years now we have simply rested on our laurels of success and NZR have not realised we have drifted from the fast lane into the slow lane.
@taniwharugby NZR staff were up on their travelling budget by 2.2 million dollars last year in 2022, that’s a lot of first class tickets when some of that putia could of been used to keep Mike Cron in the game ..True Story on the travel
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@Machpants yep, Mike Cron used to run scrum clinics all round the country, getting everyone on the same page, which is Good until it isn't.
You need variety and different ideas that challenge the norm (this is where Razor shows promise) but seems for years now we have simply rested on our laurels of success and NZR have not realised we have drifted from the fast lane into the slow lane.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants yep, Mike Cron used to run scrum clinics all round the country, getting everyone on the same page, which is Good until it isn't.
You need variety and different ideas that challenge the norm (this is where Razor shows promise) but seems for years now we have simply rested on our laurels of success and NZR have not realised we have drifted from the fast lane into the slow lane.
I agree on using skills coaches that go all round country, to a point, as you rightly point out it can become dated as other work out how to cancel out your type of game. The thing I think we miss the most in NZ ,that we used to have, is ball skills. When you see a DMac (or RMo)25m left to right at full pace you go shit that's good, we used to have a lot could do things like that. I think NZ teams have slipped on their ability for quick short passing we used to excell at!
The other thing is look at our U20s since probably 2016-17 we have loast our dominance because I think we loosing those skills, as well as for some reason the big boys are not really coming through, perhaps they going to basketball etc?
