All Blacks 2023
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I don't agree with it all, but certainly do with this bit
Wayne Smith, Steve Hansen and Graham Henry changed the game, but it’s moved on and it feels like we are playing the same system and doing the same things that weren’t good enough to win the World Cup in 2019.
In schoolboy rugby you find everyone has got the same pod system, the same terminology etc. We have a bit of group think with the style that started with Wayne Smith and Steve Hansen. It did fantastically but we’ve been overtaken.
@Machpants Cotter reckons he's going to try and get the Blues playing differently to the typical NZ style. Proof will be in the pudding whether he does and whether it's successful.
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Eddie Jones did say on the Breakdown in an interview.
The Crusaders revert to NH style finals Rugby the rest of NZ teams stay in their SR patterns come finals time.
He implied Australia were going to a more NH style direct approach to Rugby similar to the Crusaders. -
Eddie Jones did say on the Breakdown in an interview.
The Crusaders revert to NH style finals Rugby the rest of NZ teams stay in their SR patterns come finals time.
He implied Australia were going to a more NH style direct approach to Rugby similar to the Crusaders.@Chris I think that's the key, being able to adapt and adjust.
In years gone by, more often we were able to control the play and tempo, and even when we didn't we had superior fitness to outrun teams...
Now we seem to rely on an old game plan that is proven to be ineffective in tight battles with top teams, we are no longer fitter than everyone else, we have lost our cutting edge, relying on a once tried and true formula...are we too arrogant to see the successes of others and learn from them, then improve them.
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@Chris I think that's the key, being able to adapt and adjust.
In years gone by, more often we were able to control the play and tempo, and even when we didn't we had superior fitness to outrun teams...
Now we seem to rely on an old game plan that is proven to be ineffective in tight battles with top teams, we are no longer fitter than everyone else, we have lost our cutting edge, relying on a once tried and true formula...are we too arrogant to see the successes of others and learn from them, then improve them.
Yes you have nailed it,100% agree.
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@Chris I think that's the key, being able to adapt and adjust.
In years gone by, more often we were able to control the play and tempo, and even when we didn't we had superior fitness to outrun teams...
Now we seem to rely on an old game plan that is proven to be ineffective in tight battles with top teams, we are no longer fitter than everyone else, we have lost our cutting edge, relying on a once tried and true formula...are we too arrogant to see the successes of others and learn from them, then improve them.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris I think that's the key, being able to adapt and adjust.
In years gone by, more often we were able to control the play and tempo, and even when we didn't we had superior fitness to outrun teams...
Now we seem to rely on an old game plan that is proven to be ineffective in tight battles with top teams, we are no longer fitter than everyone else, we have lost our cutting edge, relying on a once tried and true formula...are we too arrogant to see the successes of others and learn from them, then improve them.
Yep I think it's what I mentioned we no longer seem to coach skills at NPC or super level. When we were at our best we had a team of WC players who could beat teams with skill, we don't have the same anymore, and as Jason Ryan says they they were picking players to go same direct style that Edie Jones talked of.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris I think that's the key, being able to adapt and adjust.
In years gone by, more often we were able to control the play and tempo, and even when we didn't we had superior fitness to outrun teams...
Now we seem to rely on an old game plan that is proven to be ineffective in tight battles with top teams, we are no longer fitter than everyone else, we have lost our cutting edge, relying on a once tried and true formula...are we too arrogant to see the successes of others and learn from them, then improve them.
Yep I think it's what I mentioned we no longer seem to coach skills at NPC or super level. When we were at our best we had a team of WC players who could beat teams with skill, we don't have the same anymore, and as Jason Ryan says they they were picking players to go same direct style that Edie Jones talked of.
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris I think that's the key, being able to adapt and adjust.
In years gone by, more often we were able to control the play and tempo, and even when we didn't we had superior fitness to outrun teams...
Now we seem to rely on an old game plan that is proven to be ineffective in tight battles with top teams, we are no longer fitter than everyone else, we have lost our cutting edge, relying on a once tried and true formula...are we too arrogant to see the successes of others and learn from them, then improve them.
Yep I think it's what I mentioned we no longer seem to coach skills at NPC or super level. When we were at our best we had a team of WC players who could beat teams with skill, we don't have the same anymore, and as Jason Ryan says they they were picking players to go same direct style that Edie Jones talked of.
I don't think it's as simple as no longer having the skill, or being coached the skill. I think the Lions series showed how to stifle the ABs and defences have evolved from there. The highly skilled fast pace game the ABs try to play struggles against such defences because it is a very big ask for players to execute the required skills game after game under immense pressure. Doubly so in WC knockout games.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris I think that's the key, being able to adapt and adjust.
In years gone by, more often we were able to control the play and tempo, and even when we didn't we had superior fitness to outrun teams...
Now we seem to rely on an old game plan that is proven to be ineffective in tight battles with top teams, we are no longer fitter than everyone else, we have lost our cutting edge, relying on a once tried and true formula...are we too arrogant to see the successes of others and learn from them, then improve them.
Yep I think it's what I mentioned we no longer seem to coach skills at NPC or super level. When we were at our best we had a team of WC players who could beat teams with skill, we don't have the same anymore, and as Jason Ryan says they they were picking players to go same direct style that Edie Jones talked of.
I don't think it's as simple as no longer having the skill, or being coached the skill. I think the Lions series showed how to stifle the ABs and defences have evolved from there. The highly skilled fast pace game the ABs try to play struggles against such defences because it is a very big ask for players to execute the required skills game after game under immense pressure. Doubly so in WC knockout games.
@Crazy-Horse and the fact we have struggled to break that defensive structure since, and rather than adopt it or evolve with it we have maintained one that has struggled as other teams have evolved.
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@Machpants yep, Mike Cron used to run scrum clinics all round the country, getting everyone on the same page, which is Good until it isn't.
You need variety and different ideas that challenge the norm (this is where Razor shows promise) but seems for years now we have simply rested on our laurels of success and NZR have not realised we have drifted from the fast lane into the slow lane.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
You need variety and different ideas that challenge the norm (this is where Razor shows promise) but seems for years now we have simply rested on our laurels of success and NZR have not realised we have drifted from the fast lane into the slow lane.
Think it's going to take some challenging-the-norm thinking at a lot more levels than just the AB Head Coach.
IMHO, we've taken our eye off the ball by putting too much emphasis on top team performance (and complacency when we're putting 50 points on the Boks) when there seems to be real problems with player development one or two levels down. A roof will look great until the rafters start rotting.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris I think that's the key, being able to adapt and adjust.
In years gone by, more often we were able to control the play and tempo, and even when we didn't we had superior fitness to outrun teams...
Now we seem to rely on an old game plan that is proven to be ineffective in tight battles with top teams, we are no longer fitter than everyone else, we have lost our cutting edge, relying on a once tried and true formula...are we too arrogant to see the successes of others and learn from them, then improve them.
Yep I think it's what I mentioned we no longer seem to coach skills at NPC or super level. When we were at our best we had a team of WC players who could beat teams with skill, we don't have the same anymore, and as Jason Ryan says they they were picking players to go same direct style that Edie Jones talked of.
I don't think it's as simple as no longer having the skill, or being coached the skill. I think the Lions series showed how to stifle the ABs and defences have evolved from there. The highly skilled fast pace game the ABs try to play struggles against such defences because it is a very big ask for players to execute the required skills game after game under immense pressure. Doubly so in WC knockout games.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris I think that's the key, being able to adapt and adjust.
In years gone by, more often we were able to control the play and tempo, and even when we didn't we had superior fitness to outrun teams...
Now we seem to rely on an old game plan that is proven to be ineffective in tight battles with top teams, we are no longer fitter than everyone else, we have lost our cutting edge, relying on a once tried and true formula...are we too arrogant to see the successes of others and learn from them, then improve them.
Yep I think it's what I mentioned we no longer seem to coach skills at NPC or super level. When we were at our best we had a team of WC players who could beat teams with skill, we don't have the same anymore, and as Jason Ryan says they they were picking players to go same direct style that Edie Jones talked of.
I don't think it's as simple as no longer having the skill, or being coached the skill. I think the Lions series showed how to stifle the ABs and defences have evolved from there. The highly skilled fast pace game the ABs try to play struggles against such defences because it is a very big ask for players to execute the required skills game after game under immense pressure. Doubly so in WC knockout games.
The offside line was pretty poor applied in that series IMO, but generally agree with the sentiment that the rush defenses got better and combined with a lack of strong (often world class) center combos (Nonu Smith and SBW) the ABs have never looked the same since... (not blaming just the centers - just that from set plays they are where the pressure is primarily directed)
The other comment I would make, is that I feel a lot of players have been elevated through school boy and NPC rugby and simply have not developed from the flat track bully days of their youth, which to my mind is a coaching development issue.
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@Chris I think that's the key, being able to adapt and adjust.
In years gone by, more often we were able to control the play and tempo, and even when we didn't we had superior fitness to outrun teams...
Now we seem to rely on an old game plan that is proven to be ineffective in tight battles with top teams, we are no longer fitter than everyone else, we have lost our cutting edge, relying on a once tried and true formula...are we too arrogant to see the successes of others and learn from them, then improve them.
I'd add in mental skills - individual and collective. The lack of focus at key times is evident in the AB's but we seem to be seeing it at U20 level as well.
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I don’t think there is a lack of skill in NZ. There is definitely a lack of brains deciding when to use those skills though.
So often hard earned pressure on the opposition is released by trying to score off a miracle play as soon as we get a turnover. -
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
You need variety and different ideas that challenge the norm (this is where Razor shows promise) but seems for years now we have simply rested on our laurels of success and NZR have not realised we have drifted from the fast lane into the slow lane.
Think it's going to take some challenging-the-norm thinking at a lot more levels than just the AB Head Coach.
IMHO, we've taken our eye off the ball by putting too much emphasis on top team performance (and complacency when we're putting 50 points on the Boks) when there seems to be real problems with player development one or two levels down. A roof will look great until the rafters start rotting.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
Think it's going to take some challenging-the-norm thinking at a lot more levels than just the AB Head Coach.
but that is where it starts...the AB scrum efficiency lead to the roll out of the cron method, if Razor has some immediate success they will no doubt look to bottle that too.
I can only speak of what I see here, but players dont lack the skills, more seems at club and schoolboy they use similar game plans to our super teams and ABs, those dinky little kicks in the 22 and the inability to deal with a rush defence and other oft complained about tactics or lack therefor...I think, fresh ideas from the top will filter pretty quick, but I just hope we dont end up all in and neglect continued innovation.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
Think it's going to take some challenging-the-norm thinking at a lot more levels than just the AB Head Coach.
but that is where it starts...the AB scrum efficiency lead to the roll out of the cron method, if Razor has some immediate success they will no doubt look to bottle that too.
I can only speak of what I see here, but players dont lack the skills, more seems at club and schoolboy they use similar game plans to our super teams and ABs, those dinky little kicks in the 22 and the inability to deal with a rush defence and other oft complained about tactics or lack therefor...I think, fresh ideas from the top will filter pretty quick, but I just hope we dont end up all in and neglect continued innovation.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
but that is where it starts...the AB scrum efficiency lead to the roll out of the cron method, if Razor has some immediate success they will no doubt look to bottle that too.
OK, everyone will want to copy the AB's, I get that, but maybe that's a big part of the problem. It works OK when things are going well but there's a real risk of stale thinking and inertia setting in when other countries catch-up or adapt. It becomes a vicious circle or closed loop.
We all want Robertson (or any AB Head Coach) to lead us to the promised land but we need players with the right physical and mental skills to do that. Overall, NZ rugby needs to think, challenge and innovate rather than just copy what the AB's do.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
but that is where it starts...the AB scrum efficiency lead to the roll out of the cron method, if Razor has some immediate success they will no doubt look to bottle that too.
OK, everyone will want to copy the AB's, I get that, but maybe that's a big part of the problem. It works OK when things are going well but there's a real risk of stale thinking and inertia setting in when other countries catch-up or adapt. It becomes a vicious circle or closed loop.
We all want Robertson (or any AB Head Coach) to lead us to the promised land but we need players with the right physical and mental skills to do that. Overall, NZ rugby needs to think, challenge and innovate rather than just copy what the AB's do.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
It works OK when things are going well but there's a real risk of stale thinking and inertia setting in when other countries catch-up or adapt. It becomes a vicious circle or closed loop.
that is exactly what has happened, and what I said above I hoped doesnt happen again if Razor is successful
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
It works OK when things are going well but there's a real risk of stale thinking and inertia setting in when other countries catch-up or adapt. It becomes a vicious circle or closed loop.
that is exactly what has happened, and what I said above I hoped doesnt happen again if Razor is successful
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
that is exactly what has happened, and what I said above I hoped doesnt happen again if Razor is successful
The problems (and solutions) in NZ Rugby run way deeper than whoever is All Blacks Head Coach IMHO. You can have the best quality roof in the world on your house but if the rafters and walls are crap, it'll still come tumbling down
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
that is exactly what has happened, and what I said above I hoped doesnt happen again if Razor is successful
The problems (and solutions) in NZ Rugby run way deeper than whoever is All Blacks Head Coach IMHO. You can have the best quality roof in the world on your house but if the rafters and walls are crap, it'll still come tumbling down
@Victor-Meldrew but the problem in NZR is it is run from the top down, ABs are the shop window, and naturally people will try to replicate.
Coaching travels the same way, top down with ideas and practices, key is not stopping those that venture out of the box, and while only rumour, we kept hearing that Razor wasnt looked upon fondly due to this reason....which as it turns out, wasnt an issue, but maybe there was a tiny bit of truth in it?
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris I think that's the key, being able to adapt and adjust.
In years gone by, more often we were able to control the play and tempo, and even when we didn't we had superior fitness to outrun teams...
Now we seem to rely on an old game plan that is proven to be ineffective in tight battles with top teams, we are no longer fitter than everyone else, we have lost our cutting edge, relying on a once tried and true formula...are we too arrogant to see the successes of others and learn from them, then improve them.
Yep I think it's what I mentioned we no longer seem to coach skills at NPC or super level. When we were at our best we had a team of WC players who could beat teams with skill, we don't have the same anymore, and as Jason Ryan says they they were picking players to go same direct style that Edie Jones talked of.
I don't think it's as simple as no longer having the skill, or being coached the skill. I think the Lions series showed how to stifle the ABs and defences have evolved from there. The highly skilled fast pace game the ABs try to play struggles against such defences because it is a very big ask for players to execute the required skills game after game under immense pressure. Doubly so in WC knockout games.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris I think that's the key, being able to adapt and adjust.
In years gone by, more often we were able to control the play and tempo, and even when we didn't we had superior fitness to outrun teams...
Now we seem to rely on an old game plan that is proven to be ineffective in tight battles with top teams, we are no longer fitter than everyone else, we have lost our cutting edge, relying on a once tried and true formula...are we too arrogant to see the successes of others and learn from them, then improve them.
Yep I think it's what I mentioned we no longer seem to coach skills at NPC or super level. When we were at our best we had a team of WC players who could beat teams with skill, we don't have the same anymore, and as Jason Ryan says they they were picking players to go same direct style that Edie Jones talked of.
I don't think it's as simple as no longer having the skill, or being coached the skill. I think the Lions series showed how to stifle the ABs and defences have evolved from there. The highly skilled fast pace game the ABs try to play struggles against such defences because it is a very big ask for players to execute the required skills game after game under immense pressure. Doubly so in WC knockout games.
Yep maybe mate, what I really meant is we don't have the skills seemingly anymore, even at super level etc without real rush defences.
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@Victor-Meldrew but the problem in NZR is it is run from the top down, ABs are the shop window, and naturally people will try to replicate.
Coaching travels the same way, top down with ideas and practices, key is not stopping those that venture out of the box, and while only rumour, we kept hearing that Razor wasnt looked upon fondly due to this reason....which as it turns out, wasnt an issue, but maybe there was a tiny bit of truth in it?
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew but the problem in NZR is it is run from the top down, ABs are the shop window, and naturally people will try to replicate.
I'd suggest that's been one of the biggest problems in the last few years - you end up with players emulating the AB's and we fall behind as the rest of the world has studied them, learned, adapted, improved and moved on.
Coaching travels the same way, top down with ideas and practices, key is not stopping those that venture out of the box, and while only rumour, we kept hearing that Razor wasnt looked upon fondly due to this reason....which as it turns out, wasnt an issue, but maybe there was a tiny bit of truth in it?
Maybe the top-down model isn't fit for purpose and being one-way approach simply stifles innovation, development and thinking at lower levels?
Not convinced the shape and development of playing culture, ideas and direction should be dependent on one bloke who may or may be successful. I'd much prefer some sort of process on player & coach development which looks at global ideas, trends, skills gaps, senior player pool and there's both way movement of ideas and planning.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
that is exactly what has happened, and what I said above I hoped doesnt happen again if Razor is successful
The problems (and solutions) in NZ Rugby run way deeper than whoever is All Blacks Head Coach IMHO. You can have the best quality roof in the world on your house but if the rafters and walls are crap, it'll still come tumbling down
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
that is exactly what has happened, and what I said above I hoped doesnt happen again if Razor is successful
The problems (and solutions) in NZ Rugby run way deeper than whoever is All Blacks Head Coach IMHO. You can have the best quality roof in the world on your house but if the rafters and walls are crap, it'll still come tumbling down
Absolutely right but having a "caretaker coach" (Foster) has exacerbated the problem. And you are underestimating the influence of having a group of coaches at the top (Razor, Ryan, et al) that could influence the way the game is played in NZ. I understand your arguments but completely disagree with the potential outcomes of a new direction.
Look at France/Ireland now compared to 10 years ago. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
that is exactly what has happened, and what I said above I hoped doesnt happen again if Razor is successful
The problems (and solutions) in NZ Rugby run way deeper than whoever is All Blacks Head Coach IMHO. You can have the best quality roof in the world on your house but if the rafters and walls are crap, it'll still come tumbling down
Absolutely right but having a "caretaker coach" (Foster) has exacerbated the problem. And you are underestimating the influence of having a group of coaches at the top (Razor, Ryan, et al) that could influence the way the game is played in NZ. I understand your arguments but completely disagree with the potential outcomes of a new direction.
Look at France/Ireland now compared to 10 years ago.@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
that is exactly what has happened, and what I said above I hoped doesnt happen again if Razor is successful
The problems (and solutions) in NZ Rugby run way deeper than whoever is All Blacks Head Coach IMHO. You can have the best quality roof in the world on your house but if the rafters and walls are crap, it'll still come tumbling down
Absolutely right but having a "caretaker coach" (Foster) has exacerbated the problem. And you are underestimating the influence of having a group of coaches at the top (Razor, Ryan, et al) that could influence the way the game is played in NZ.
Way too simplistic to suggest that three people, alone, with no other changes can solve player development issues at the top level of NZ rugby.
Look at France/Ireland now compared to 10 years ago.
Yep, let's use Ireland as an example. They undertook a root and branch review of Irish rugby 10 years ago, tweaked their rugby structure and had lower level coaches and players interacting with the national team coaches on a regular basis, They appointed a national performance director who works with the Ireland coaching staff to ensure strength in depth in every department.
I understand your arguments but completely disagree with the potential outcomes of a new direction.
Look at Ireland.
