All Blacks 2023
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
that is exactly what has happened, and what I said above I hoped doesnt happen again if Razor is successful
The problems (and solutions) in NZ Rugby run way deeper than whoever is All Blacks Head Coach IMHO. You can have the best quality roof in the world on your house but if the rafters and walls are crap, it'll still come tumbling down
Absolutely right but having a "caretaker coach" (Foster) has exacerbated the problem. And you are underestimating the influence of having a group of coaches at the top (Razor, Ryan, et al) that could influence the way the game is played in NZ.
Way too simplistic to suggest that three people, alone, with no other changes can solve player development issues at the top level of NZ rugby.
Look at France/Ireland now compared to 10 years ago.
Yep, let's use Ireland as an example. They undertook a root and branch review of Irish rugby 10 years ago, tweaked their rugby structure and had lower level coaches and players interacting with the national team coaches on a regular basis, They appointed a national performance director who works with the Ireland coaching staff to ensure strength in depth in every department.
I understand your arguments but completely disagree with the potential outcomes of a new direction.
Look at Ireland.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
Yep, let's use Ireland as an example. They undertook a root and branch review of Irish rugby 10 years ago, tweaked their rugby structure and had lower level coaches and players interacting with the national team coaches on a regular basis, They appointed a national performance director who works with the Ireland coaching staff to ensure strength in depth in every department.
That sounds exactly like what happened here and what youbwere arguing against earlier...
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
Yep, let's use Ireland as an example. They undertook a root and branch review of Irish rugby 10 years ago, tweaked their rugby structure and had lower level coaches and players interacting with the national team coaches on a regular basis, They appointed a national performance director who works with the Ireland coaching staff to ensure strength in depth in every department.
That sounds exactly like what happened here and what youbwere arguing against earlier...
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
Yep, let's use Ireland as an example. They undertook a root and branch review of Irish rugby 10 years ago, tweaked their rugby structure and had lower level coaches and players interacting with the national team coaches on a regular basis, They appointed a national performance director who works with the Ireland coaching staff to ensure strength in depth in every department.
That sounds exactly like what happened here and what youbwere arguing against earlier...
It's exactly the sort of thinking I'm suggesting we need - not necessarily the same approach. They did a review, tweaked thir structure, identified the need to look at development both upward and downward and developed the roles - which they then filled.
Totally opposite approach from appointing a Head Coach and hoping his Ideas will trickle down.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
I understand your arguments but completely disagree with the potential outcomes of a new direction.
Look at Ireland.
You are saying what I was trying to say I think. It starts with changing the top coach though.
@Old-Samurai-Jack
Ireland did the opposite. -
Only 1 match in, but based on Pumas and Japan XV matches only, it would be hard to see anyone from the NZ XV (barring chronic run of injuries) being promoted to the 1st XV. 3 Tests left until RWC squad is named.
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Chucked this in the game thread. But, relevant here. Cane may be in some trouble for this https://twitter.com/AndrewGourdie/status/1677877074122670081?s=19
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@Old-Samurai-Jack
Ireland did the opposite.@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack
Ireland did the opposite.From my limited understanding, I believe Schmitt was hugely influential in administering change at both club level and higher.
I understand your argument and I agree about the systemic problems in NZ rugby, but are you arguing to keep the current AB coach because there are problems elsewhere? That seems to counter your argument and the part I don't understand.
Part of the changes surely would be to put someone in the AB coaching role with some new innovation to head the needed changes.
Foster, for all his experience, is not an innovator. Change is not in his DNA. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack
Ireland did the opposite.From my limited understanding, I believe Schmitt was hugely influential in administering change at both club level and higher.
I understand your argument and I agree about the systemic problems in NZ rugby, but are you arguing to keep the current AB coach because there are problems elsewhere? That seems to counter your argument and the part I don't understand.
Part of the changes surely would be to put someone in the AB coaching role with some new innovation to head the needed changes.
Foster, for all his experience, is not an innovator. Change is not in his DNA.@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack
Ireland did the opposite.From my limited understanding, I believe Schmitt was hugely influential in administering change at both club level and higher.
The thinking and changes took place well before Schmidt joined. Cheika at Leinster was also hugely influential according to O'Driscoll
I understand your argument and I agree about the systemic problems in NZ rugby, but are you arguing to keep the current AB coach because there are problems elsewhere?
That seems to counter your argument and the part I don't understand.Nothing to do with Foster or whoever is Head Coach (did I even mention him?). I'm talking about the need for some thinking around player development at senior levels and putting some better structure in place.
Part of the changes surely would be to put someone in the AB coaching role with some new innovation to head the needed changes.
Well, we could think about putting put someone close to the coaching staff (maybe call him a National Performance director...) and use him to co-ordinate player development up and down the tree. This might work better than one relying on one bloke (the AB Head Coach) to drive skills, player development and performance across lower levels by proxy or osmosis.
Foster, for all his experience, is not an innovator. Change is not in his DNA.
What has Foster got to do with it?
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Every time. Every... fucking... time.
@Victor-Meldrew states something as simple as "I don't think just replacing the Head Coach of the All Blacks is going to fix everything... a more fundamental look at the entire structure is more likely to be of benefit"
Somebody interprets at as "Defending Foster". Just... how the fuck do we teach comprehension?
1 - There is ZERO fucking defence of Ian Foster in Meldrew's theory.
2 - Meldrew is NOT defending Ian Foster.
3 - Fucking FORGET Foster... nobody cares, not a single fucking bit, about yet another "Ugh... Foster is useless, because... blah blah"
4 - Read. Think. Comprehend. Then respond. (I know, I know... Cue: "un-fern-like", "ban him", etc) -
Every time. Every... fucking... time.
@Victor-Meldrew states something as simple as "I don't think just replacing the Head Coach of the All Blacks is going to fix everything... a more fundamental look at the entire structure is more likely to be of benefit"
Somebody interprets at as "Defending Foster". Just... how the fuck do we teach comprehension?
1 - There is ZERO fucking defence of Ian Foster in Meldrew's theory.
2 - Meldrew is NOT defending Ian Foster.
3 - Fucking FORGET Foster... nobody cares, not a single fucking bit, about yet another "Ugh... Foster is useless, because... blah blah"
4 - Read. Think. Comprehend. Then respond. (I know, I know... Cue: "un-fern-like", "ban him", etc) -
@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kruse yeah but reputations get built on past behaviour. What movie are you watching?
What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
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@Kruse said in All Blacks 2023:
Ah, good point - I got distracted from my core role.
Death Race 2050 - looks like a go-er.I loved the original but could not last through the remake. Is it nostalgia or was there something awkwardly cool about 70s 80s movies like that and RoboCop and Total Recall that remakes fail to recover? Oh well, back to the ABs and by the way I won't mention Foster (and co!!) except to say is it just me or have our bench changes got worse in terms of impact? I vaguely recall about 5 or 10 years ago our bench were an impactful improvement.. no longer.. maybe it is more to do with opponent fitness improvements...
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kruse yeah but reputations get built on past behaviour. What movie are you watching?
What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kruse yeah but reputations get built on past behaviour. What movie are you watching?
What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
I think that was a sly dig that Kruse has built a drunken reputation on Hunter S Thompson style movie reviews?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kruse yeah but reputations get built on past behaviour. What movie are you watching?
What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
I think that was a sly dig that Kruse has built a drunken reputation on Hunter S Thompson style movie reviews?
Ah OK. Thought it was Bones out-Timing Tim.
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@taniwharugby NZR staff were up on their travelling budget by 2.2 million dollars last year in 2022, that’s a lot of first class tickets when some of that putia could of been used to keep Mike Cron in the game ..True Story on the travel
️The travel was up on what? 2021 when there was lockdowns? Seems about right
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack
Ireland did the opposite.From my limited understanding, I believe Schmitt was hugely influential in administering change at both club level and higher.
The thinking and changes took place well before Schmidt joined. Cheika at Leinster was also hugely influential according to O'Driscoll
I understand your argument and I agree about the systemic problems in NZ rugby, but are you arguing to keep the current AB coach because there are problems elsewhere?
That seems to counter your argument and the part I don't understand.Nothing to do with Foster or whoever is Head Coach (did I even mention him?). I'm talking about the need for some thinking around player development at senior levels and putting some better structure in place.
Part of the changes surely would be to put someone in the AB coaching role with some new innovation to head the needed changes.
Well, we could think about putting put someone close to the coaching staff (maybe call him a National Performance director...) and use him to co-ordinate player development up and down the tree. This might work better than one relying on one bloke (the AB Head Coach) to drive skills, player development and performance across lower levels by proxy or osmosis.
Foster, for all his experience, is not an innovator. Change is not in his DNA.
What has Foster got to do with it?
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack
Ireland did the opposite.From my limited understanding, I believe Schmitt was hugely influential in administering change at both club level and higher.
The thinking and changes took place well before Schmidt joined. Cheika at Leinster was also hugely influential according to O'Driscoll
I understand your argument and I agree about the systemic problems in NZ rugby, but are you arguing to keep the current AB coach because there are problems elsewhere?
That seems to counter your argument and the part I don't understand.Nothing to do with Foster or whoever is Head Coach (did I even mention him?). I'm talking about the need for some thinking around player development at senior levels and putting some better structure in place.
Part of the changes surely would be to put someone in the AB coaching role with some new innovation to head the needed changes.
Well, we could think about putting put someone close to the coaching staff (maybe call him a National Performance director...) and use him to co-ordinate player development up and down the tree. This might work better than one relying on one bloke (the AB Head Coach) to drive skills, player development and performance across lower levels by proxy or osmosis.
Foster, for all his experience, is not an innovator. Change is not in his DNA.
What has Foster got to do with it?
Cheers. Totally agree except I think having an AB head coach with a different direction will be hugely influential in the changes that are needed. Top-down as well as bottom-up changes are needed. I mention Foster because I think you are stating changing the AB head coach would have little effect. I tend to disagree on that part.
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Every time. Every... fucking... time.
@Victor-Meldrew states something as simple as "I don't think just replacing the Head Coach of the All Blacks is going to fix everything... a more fundamental look at the entire structure is more likely to be of benefit"
Somebody interprets at as "Defending Foster". Just... how the fuck do we teach comprehension?
1 - There is ZERO fucking defence of Ian Foster in Meldrew's theory.
2 - Meldrew is NOT defending Ian Foster.
3 - Fucking FORGET Foster... nobody cares, not a single fucking bit, about yet another "Ugh... Foster is useless, because... blah blah"
4 - Read. Think. Comprehend. Then respond. (I know, I know... Cue: "un-fern-like", "ban him", etc)@Kruse said in All Blacks 2023:
Every time. Every... fucking... time.
@Victor-Meldrew states something as simple as "I don't think just replacing the Head Coach of the All Blacks is going to fix everything... a more fundamental look at the entire structure is more likely to be of benefit"
Somebody interprets at as "Defending Foster". Just... how the fuck do we teach comprehension?
1 - There is ZERO fucking defence of Ian Foster in Meldrew's theory.
2 - Meldrew is NOT defending Ian Foster.
3 - Fucking FORGET Foster... nobody cares, not a single fucking bit, about yet another "Ugh... Foster is useless, because... blah blah"
4 - Read. Think. Comprehend. Then respond. (I know, I know... Cue: "un-fern-like", "ban him", etc)WTF! Did you actually read what I posted? Comprehend and all that? You sound like my frustrated 5th-form English teacher (Frustrated for good reason I must admit).
I will put it simply so you can comprehend. I think we need a new direction at the top and that will influence the changes needed in NZ rugby. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack
Ireland did the opposite.From my limited understanding, I believe Schmitt was hugely influential in administering change at both club level and higher.
The thinking and changes took place well before Schmidt joined. Cheika at Leinster was also hugely influential according to O'Driscoll
I understand your argument and I agree about the systemic problems in NZ rugby, but are you arguing to keep the current AB coach because there are problems elsewhere?
That seems to counter your argument and the part I don't understand.Nothing to do with Foster or whoever is Head Coach (did I even mention him?). I'm talking about the need for some thinking around player development at senior levels and putting some better structure in place.
Part of the changes surely would be to put someone in the AB coaching role with some new innovation to head the needed changes.
Well, we could think about putting put someone close to the coaching staff (maybe call him a National Performance director...) and use him to co-ordinate player development up and down the tree. This might work better than one relying on one bloke (the AB Head Coach) to drive skills, player development and performance across lower levels by proxy or osmosis.
Foster, for all his experience, is not an innovator. Change is not in his DNA.
What has Foster got to do with it?
Cheers. Totally agree except I think having an AB head coach with a different direction will be hugely influential in the changes that are needed. Top-down as well as bottom-up changes are needed. I mention Foster because I think you are stating changing the AB head coach would have little effect. I tend to disagree on that part.
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack
Ireland did the opposite.From my limited understanding, I believe Schmitt was hugely influential in administering change at both club level and higher.
The thinking and changes took place well before Schmidt joined. Cheika at Leinster was also hugely influential according to O'Driscoll
I understand your argument and I agree about the systemic problems in NZ rugby, but are you arguing to keep the current AB coach because there are problems elsewhere?
That seems to counter your argument and the part I don't understand.Nothing to do with Foster or whoever is Head Coach (did I even mention him?). I'm talking about the need for some thinking around player development at senior levels and putting some better structure in place.
Part of the changes surely would be to put someone in the AB coaching role with some new innovation to head the needed changes.
Well, we could think about putting put someone close to the coaching staff (maybe call him a National Performance director...) and use him to co-ordinate player development up and down the tree. This might work better than one relying on one bloke (the AB Head Coach) to drive skills, player development and performance across lower levels by proxy or osmosis.
Foster, for all his experience, is not an innovator. Change is not in his DNA.
What has Foster got to do with it?
Cheers. Totally agree except I think having an AB head coach with a different direction will be hugely influential in the changes that are needed. Top-down as well as bottom-up changes are needed. I mention Foster because I think you are stating changing the AB head coach would have little effect. I tend to disagree on that part.
With all due repect mate, whoever is AB coach should have nothing to do with the changes suggested, good as they are! The AB coach should be just that and all development should be done through a national development team (we actually have something like it already) as when the AB coach is used for in this role, I tend to think whoever he is will develop players in his style? I think what is required is a team of skills coaches both in playing and lifestyle, and go from there.
Just how I see it, and not saying anyone is out of line etc. -
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Old-Samurai-Jack
Ireland did the opposite.From my limited understanding, I believe Schmitt was hugely influential in administering change at both club level and higher.
The thinking and changes took place well before Schmidt joined. Cheika at Leinster was also hugely influential according to O'Driscoll
I understand your argument and I agree about the systemic problems in NZ rugby, but are you arguing to keep the current AB coach because there are problems elsewhere?
That seems to counter your argument and the part I don't understand.Nothing to do with Foster or whoever is Head Coach (did I even mention him?). I'm talking about the need for some thinking around player development at senior levels and putting some better structure in place.
Part of the changes surely would be to put someone in the AB coaching role with some new innovation to head the needed changes.
Well, we could think about putting put someone close to the coaching staff (maybe call him a National Performance director...) and use him to co-ordinate player development up and down the tree. This might work better than one relying on one bloke (the AB Head Coach) to drive skills, player development and performance across lower levels by proxy or osmosis.
Foster, for all his experience, is not an innovator. Change is not in his DNA.
What has Foster got to do with it?
Cheers. Totally agree except I think having an AB head coach with a different direction will be hugely influential in the changes that are needed. Top-down as well as bottom-up changes are needed. I mention Foster because I think you are stating changing the AB head coach would have little effect. I tend to disagree on that part.
With all due repect mate, whoever is AB coach should have nothing to do with the changes suggested, good as they are! The AB coach should be just that and all development should be done through a national development team (we actually have something like it already) as when the AB coach is used for in this role, I tend to think whoever he is will develop players in his style? I think what is required is a team of skills coaches both in playing and lifestyle, and go from there.
Just how I see it, and not saying anyone is out of line etc.@Dan54 Ideally, but there is no doubt the roles Henry, Hansen, Cron et al, played in leading the style of play in NZ rugby (Schmitt in Ireland, Rassie in SA, France). We have people on here saying grassroots teams all play similarly, a lack of variety in how Super rugby teams play, etc. Even the media now saying the same thing. I think the way the AB team goes about it has a huge influence and the lack of innovation at the top has very negative implications on all rugby in NZ.
What both you and Victor say makes complete sense to me but with the added dimension of saying the way the top team plays is hugely influential.
