Scott Kuggeleijn sex trial
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<p>Two people got on the piss and spent the night together. Who the fuck knows what actually happened. He said / she said based on hazy memories. Pretty tough one for the courts to sort out.</p>
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The major issue is the statements from witnesses saying he was told no a number of times. Witnesses who were told this by Kuggeleijn. So he is basically admitting he didn't have consent. It's like knocking at the door of someone you know, being told not today and walking in anyway.
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<p>bizaare conversation to have with your mates TBH...</p>
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<p>so did you score last night:</p>
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<p>Yeah bro</p>
<p>Nah bro</p>
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<p>But the conversations has kinda gone - yeah mate I scored, but man I had to work on her, she said no loads, but eventually gave in.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Stargazer" data-cid="600769" data-time="1469656277">
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<p>Utter fear does that to a person. People freeze and can hardly breathe, let alone scream.</p>
<p>If he threatened her, she wouldn't have screamed out of fear either.</p>
<p>Be careful not to resort to victim blaming here.</p>
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<p>You need to be careful assuming there is a victim. </p>
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<p>As for utter fear.... was she afraid of physical violence if she didnt have sex or had called for help? What evidence has been presented to support that? Are you or the prosecution suggesting that she was so scared that she was struck mute? Despite knowing that help and a solution to the threat was one good yell away?</p> -
<p>saw this on FB, assume it relates to this case?</p>
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<p>I'm gunna start going home with random very drunk guys and stealing all of their shit. Everything they own. It won't be my fault though... they were drunk. They<span>...</span><span> should have known better. I'll get away with it 90% of the time but then when one brave man takes me to court over it, I'll argue that I wasn't sure if he meant it when he said 'no don't steal my Audi.' I just wasn't sure if he meant it. I said 'Can I please steal your Gucci watch?' He said 'no' but I just wasn't sure if he meant it. He was drunk.He brought this on himself. You should have seen how he was dressed at the club, expensive shirts and shoes. What kind of message is he sending with that!? I thought he wanted me to come and steal all of his shit. He was asking for it. When he said 'no' to me taking everything he owned I just didn't know if he meant it. 'No' isn't objective enough, it could mean anything.</span></p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="600969" data-time="1469685374">
<p>Hypothetically speaking, trying to talk a girl who's saying no into having sex is a high risk manoeuvre. If she says no best to bug out and move on</p>
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<br><p>That's what I'd do if I was ever rejected. Assuming I didn't die of shock.</p>
<p><img src="https://media.giphy.com/media/10f9L2hfYWaZZS/giphy.gif" alt="giphy.gif"></p> -
<p>I've deleted half of this thread</p>
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<p>For matters before the court, please provide a source if you are stating something as a fact</p>
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<p>It is not 'irrelevant' and no I will not 'google it myself'. TSF can be liable for what is posted here so we will err on the side of caution</p> -
Why were they sleeping in the same bed?
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="600971" data-time="1469685958">
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<p>That's what I'd do if I was ever rejected. Assuming I didn't die of shock.</p>
<p><img src="https://media.giphy.com/media/10f9L2hfYWaZZS/giphy.gif" alt="giphy.gif"></p>
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<p>What's with all the food stains? Breakfast in Bed?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="601008" data-time="1469692291"><p>
Why does that matter?</p></blockquote>
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Yes, why would that little detail have any significance in a rape case.<br><br>
I'm not judging either of the parties I'm just wondering why they were sleeping in the same bed. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="601014" data-time="1469692792">
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<p>Yes, why would that little detail have any significance in a rape case.<br><br>
I'm not judging either of the parties I'm just wondering why they were sleeping in the same bed.</p>
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<p>I am not sure why they shouldnt?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="601015" data-time="1469693056"><p>
That's the thing aye, doesn't matter if she wanted to fool a bit, the minute she says no that's game over...</p></blockquote>
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Exactly. If she says no, don't sleep in the same bed as her. Lying in bed with a raging boner and the woman you're lusting after just a few centimetres away is never a good thing. -
<p>I've had a few occasions like that, I asked, she said no, I turned over and went to sleep...</p>
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<p>Ended up at a house due to mate shagging the friend, other bird was keen on me, just not on sex straight away..</p>
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<p>another one I woke in the morning and went to sneak out only to realise I had no idea where I was...wasnt much fun.</p> -
<p>I'm always a little bit disappointed (actually, a lot disappointed) when it comes to social media and rape cases. Particularly when it comes to high profile sportsmen, and the general belief that the girl was probably asking for it because who wouldn't want to have sex with a guy who throws a ball around for a living. </p>
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<p>Having read Duluth's post earlier, and taking that in, I'll just talk very broadly and background it with the fact that I know nothing about the current case. other than the media, and I'm not talking about that in particular, just addressing points that have been raised. </p>
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<p>I've been first on the scene, held (and closed) files, and taken through to court a fair number of rape, sexual assault, or indecency complaints. Unfortunately, all sexual assault cases are not all as simple as "random girl walking home dragged into the bushes by complete stranger and DNA found at the scene". They can be dark and murky affairs, often influenced by alcohol, drugs and emotions. Give me an assault file over a sexual assault file any day. </p>
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<p>Asking why a victim didn't cry out for help is like asking why a victim didn't close her legs to stop penetration. It's not just fear, it's thoughts about whether they have put themselves in that situation, whether they have asked for it by wearing a short skirt or flirting (some parts of society still have that mentality), it's fear about what their flatmates might say. Put quite simply, asking why a victim didn't cry out, is like asking why a domestic violence victim doesn't tell their friends where the bruises came from, or why a sexual abuse victim doesn't tell their family that their uncle is abusing them. Put even further into perspective, when the alleged offender is a professional sportsman, can you begin to imagine how much that might skew the balance of power? Internet messageboards will be flooded with accusations of "regrettable sex" or "she was well up for it". In fact, I've seen them a number of times on TSF with various cases in the past. I think us imagining that we'd cry out while being raped is like how we all like to think we'd be a hero in a dangerous situation, but that's not always the case. Until you're in those shoes, you have no idea. </p>
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<p>As I said, I don't know anything about this case other than what I read in the media, I have no idea which version of the story is more correct (both may have genuinely believed what they told the jury). But I'll ask this - would you voluntarily stand up in front of 12 strangers, and the national media, and tell them about a sexual experience you had? We did adult sexual assault training at work a few years back, and the trainer asked me to stand up and tell the room about my last sexual experience. Talk about fucken uncomfortable. I think I made a joke about, "it was dark and I was all alone". But I couldn't imagine what it would be like to get up in front of a jury and tell them about something intensely personal and private, and then know that it is gonna be all over the media, with people throwing accusations and casting doubt from all angles. </p>
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<p>Yes, some people do make false rape complaints. It's a fact of life that some people will do that, and I can't advocate enough for harsh sentences for those people, because it makes it so much tougher for genuine victims to come forward and tell their story and think they'll be believed. But just because some people make false rape complaints doesn't mean that we shouldn't treat all allegations of sexual assault as genuine, until proven otherwise. There are some statistics about how only 2 - 5 percent of sexual assaults will be reported, and only a fraction of those will ever get a conviction. That means that a sexual assault victim has something like a 1-2% chance of ever seeing justice done. </p>
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<p>In the past, (being a happily married man now) if it had got to the point where a girl said she wasn't keen, I imagine I would have just rolled over and gone to sleep? If you get to the point where you feel that you're being "insistent" , are you any better than an ex-car salesman, or a telemarketer who is pushing something onto someone that they clearly don't want? When that something is sexual intercourse, you are treading a very, very fine line. </p>
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<p>Food for thought anyway. I have no idea how this case will play out, but it's not as black and white as we in our armchairs might imagine...</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="aucklandwarlord" data-cid="601098" data-time="1469731409">
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<p>Yes, some people do make false rape complaints. It's a fact of life that some people will do that, and I can't advocate enough for harsh sentences for those people, because it makes it so much tougher for genuine victims to come forward and tell their story and think they'll be believed. But just because some people make false rape complaints doesn't mean that we shouldn't treat all allegations of sexual assault as genuine, until proven otherwise. There are some statistics about how only 2 - 5 percent of sexual assaults will be reported, and only a fraction of those will ever get a conviction. That means that a sexual assault victim has something like a 1-2% chance of ever seeing justice done. </p>
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<p>Can you expand on your belief that all accusations of rape should be seen as genuine? Do you mean they should be taken seriously? Or the alleged victim believed until proven otherwise?</p>
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<p>Because I have serious issues with the latter... and will happily debate it.</p>
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<p>And do you have a source for claim that only 2-5% of sexual assaults are reported? This area is full of misleading studies and blatantly dishonest claims. Another popular one is the the amount of females that will be a victim of sexual assault. In that case it is a case of 'if a lie is repeated enough it becomes the truth'. I will happily provide more information on this.</p>
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<p>As for your assertion that if 2-5% of rape cases are prosecuted, that does not mean only 1-3% see justice.. unless you equate justice being done with a conviction... which to be honest does seem to be the gist of that part of your post. If you trust your judicial system, then if 2-5% (A figure I would like to see verified) are prosecuted then 2-5% see justice done, a jury finding someone innocent is still justice done.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="aucklandwarlord" data-cid="601098" data-time="1469731409">
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<p>Yes, some people do make false rape complaints. It's a fact of life that some people will do that, and I can't advocate enough for harsh sentences for those people, because it makes it so much tougher for genuine victims to come forward and tell their story and think they'll be believed. But just because some people make false rape complaints doesn't mean that we shouldn't treat all allegations of sexual assault as genuine, until proven otherwise.</p>
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<p>On your first point above, one of the reasons here in Queensland the vast majority of people who make false rape complaints are not prosecuted is because it is believed the prosecution of these people will deter genuine victims from making complaints. The fear of getting prosecuted if you are not believed.</p>
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<p>I don't know how things work in the NZ police, but I suspect things would be very similar to over here. The first thing you do as a cop when receiving any complaint is ask yourself "Did this really happen?" Rape/sexual complaints are no different. When I hand over sexual complaint reports to the coffee drinking 'Cant I'm Busy' crowd the first question I always seem to get is "So is this a load of crap or what?" It sounds bloody wrong to start off an investigation with that attitude but that attitude has come from somewhere. Maybe the attitude has evolved because other police have had similar experiences to me and Mrs Crazy Horse (she is also a cop) - with 25 years front line experience between us we have been involved in very few sexual assault/rape cases that have made it to court. The vast majority end up going nowhere. Some are blatantly false, some are 'he said, she said' and some are withdrawn by the victim for reasons she will only know.</p>
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<p>I don't have any internet links, but research conducted by a Charles McDowell and recorded in the Forensic Science Digest Vol 11, No 4 December 1985, suggests that up to 60% of rape complaints are false. The research started by reviewing 556 cases of alleged rape in the US airforce between certain times. 27% of the women eventually admitted they had lied. The airforce then got three independent reviewers to review all 556 cases. They identified 25 criteria common to all the cases in which the women admitted they lied and made comparisons to the other rape cases. Upon reviewing all the cases the reviewers concluded 60% of the rape complaints were false. The reviewers all worked independently of each other and it is only the individual cases in which all three reviewers concluded were false that are included in the 60% figure.</p>
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<p>It was then thought the results may be peculiar to the airforce so a review was conducted of rape complaints in major police forces throughout the USA. The review returned the same results. 60% of rape complaints were likely to be false. Politicians feared a backlash so pressure was applied and eventually the results were published leaving out the exact police jurisdictions that were reviewed.</p>
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<p>I don't know how competent the research was but that to me that was interesting. If the truthfulness of rape allegations can be questioned, what about other allegations? Domestic Violence is an issue that springs to mind that all is not what we are led to believe, but that is another topic.</p>
