All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham
-
@Steve he’s ahead of Narawa based on previous selections. Plus Narawa has struggled to get over his niggle
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Steve he’s ahead of Narawa based on previous selections. Plus Narawa has struggled to get over his niggle
Does Clarke cover 14?
Thought Narawa was primarily 14/15.
Clarke 11 and centre at an absolute straw clutch?
Open to correction on both.
-
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Steve he’s ahead of Narawa based on previous selections. Plus Narawa has struggled to get over his niggle
Does Clarke cover 14?
Thought Narawa was primarily 14/15.
Clarke 11 and centre at an absolute straw clutch?
Open to correction on both.
-
@Machpants said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Machpants said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
And he can't own up when his team puts what is objectively the worst performance ever in black
Utter fucking nonsense.
So a28 point loss isn't objectively the worst ever? Carry on in your dream world. He at no point in the interview admits anything but good learnings. Not 'we didn't prepare well enough' nor 'the tactics weren't quite right' doing shitty little kicks in our 22.Just we will learn. Except they don't and haven't over the last 6 odd years
Losing to Munster 12-0 in 78 is the worst ever…
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Machpants said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Machpants said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
And he can't own up when his team puts what is objectively the worst performance ever in black
Utter fucking nonsense.
So a28 point loss isn't objectively the worst ever? Carry on in your dream world. He at no point in the interview admits anything but good learnings. Not 'we didn't prepare well enough' nor 'the tactics weren't quite right' doing shitty little kicks in our 22.Just we will learn. Except they don't and haven't over the last 6 odd years
Losing to Munster 12-0 in 78 is the worst ever…
No it's not, I well remember a real spanking against Sydney 17 - 40 at Penrith in 1992 that was the ultimate pits. That's the same year we had an unbeaten tour of Sth Africa!
-
@booboo said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
We're finding plenty of "reasons" for the loss huh?
I think it has been mentioned by many that we simply weren't very good (at all). That might be one of many reasons but it is surely an important one.
-
It’s irrelevant because Telea covers both sides and Narawa is so far down the peaking order of fullback cover
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
It’s irrelevant because Telea covers both sides and Narawa is so far down the peaking order of fullback cover
Probably, but Narawa has a very good boot. I'd like to see more of it at test level but he might make a fine backup 15.
-
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
It’s irrelevant because Telea covers both sides and Narawa is so far down the peaking order of fullback cover
Probably, but Narawa has a very good boot. I'd like to see more of it at test level but he might make a fine backup 15.
-
Sure but we are talking about the current peaking order according to the selectors. A lot of people seems certain that Clarke is the 5th winger. I don't think the selections to date back that up
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
Sure but we are talking about the current peaking order according to the selectors. A lot of people seems certain that Clarke is the 5th winger. I don't think the selections to date back that up
Yes, agree with that.
-
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
Still never dropping players, ever, no matter how bad.
This is his biggest weakness in my opinion.
In the past, rightly or wrongly, other managers made big calls with some big players. Mitchell dropped Cullen while he still had something to offer, Nonu got dropped for the 2007 RWC, Dagg missed out in 2015, Ben Smith and Cane dropped for the semi in 2019.
Foster has been in the setup for so long that it seems he has a cadre of undroppable players. Cane and Beaudy come to mind immediately. At times during his tenure they patently did not deserve their place on the field on merit. Who is the biggest name on his kill sheet? Akira Ioane? Sotutu?
They are low hanging fruit.
As I have said many times on this forum.
The crest on the front is bigger than any name on the back. Or at least it should be for a team that prides itself on legacy and winning records.
@Steve said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
Still never dropping players, ever, no matter how bad.
This is his biggest weakness in my opinion.
In the past, rightly or wrongly, other managers made big calls with some big players. Mitchell dropped Cullen while he still had something to offer, Nonu got dropped for the 2007 RWC, Dagg missed out in 2015, Ben Smith and Cane dropped for the semi in 2019.
Could not agree more. Refusal to change captains when it's clear Cane is a poor captain, refusal to drop Beauden are two huge issues.
A refusal to cut a winger so let's take 5 in the RWC squad.
ABs seem to think because there is a bye week between the last pool game and the quarter they can get away with fewer forwards - fucking big risk meanwhile we will line up against France without a 6 at all - cripes.
-
I am actually wondering if heads were not in right place yesterday? I actually said to Mrs just before game I was worried with talk, it sounded like they were trying to talk themselves into it being a must win game, and not quite coming off to me. I not suggesting in anyway taking away how well Boks played , or how poor ABs seemed to be, just a thought I had.
@Dan54 My thoughts too. I knew a pasting was coming while watching the anthems. They weren’t up for this at all. And the Springboks clearly were. Mindset, attitude and mental strength are still the key underlying problems, which gets back to my earlier post about the Foster effect. I think he wants to be everyone’s mate, which is fatal for a head coach.
-
@Dan54 My thoughts too. I knew a pasting was coming while watching the anthems. They weren’t up for this at all. And the Springboks clearly were. Mindset, attitude and mental strength are still the key underlying problems, which gets back to my earlier post about the Foster effect. I think he wants to be everyone’s mate, which is fatal for a head coach.
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Dan54 My thoughts too. I knew a pasting was coming while watching the anthems. They weren’t up for this at all. And the Springboks clearly were. Mindset, attitude and mental strength are still the key underlying problems, which gets back to my earlier post about the Foster effect. I think he wants to be everyone’s mate, which is fatal for a head coach.
Ties in with my post below.
Too nice to his squad....Waaaaay too nice to refs both in the build up to and after games. Be magnanimous sure, but we are being led a merry dance by the Rassies, Farrells, Sextons and Eddie Jones of the world.
From the social media account right up to the head coach, we have had 6 or 7 years of sniffing our own farts and falling over ourselves to be the good guys on and off the pitch. Rassies video whether you like it or not, turned that Lions series. Simple things like mentioning how Kolisi was not afforded the same audience with the ref as the opposition captain.
The Mako Vunipola smash on Barrett in the same game as the SBW red in 2017 (with differing sanctions) followed by the "we have a deal" Garces special the following week and the resultant shoulder shrugs from our leaders and coaches showed the seeds had been sewn. We went from a team with a 100 year invisibility cloak on, to one who gets carded more than everyone else in the space of a few years up to and including the Taa'vao/Andrew Porter fiasco which again resulted in another bungled home series. And Foster still had nothing to say.
We have turned the other cheek on and off the pitch for too long.
The coaching should be ruthless and the players should be ruthless. Mark Robinson similarly showed a lack of ruthlessness. Kite flying and taking the temperature of the nation before making decisions. Sack him or back him.
-
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Dan54 My thoughts too. I knew a pasting was coming while watching the anthems. They weren’t up for this at all. And the Springboks clearly were. Mindset, attitude and mental strength are still the key underlying problems, which gets back to my earlier post about the Foster effect. I think he wants to be everyone’s mate, which is fatal for a head coach.
Ties in with my post below.
Too nice to his squad....Waaaaay too nice to refs both in the build up to and after games. Be magnanimous sure, but we are being led a merry dance by the Rassies, Farrells, Sextons and Eddie Jones of the world.
From the social media account right up to the head coach, we have had 6 or 7 years of sniffing our own farts and falling over ourselves to be the good guys on and off the pitch. Rassies video whether you like it or not, turned that Lions series. Simple things like mentioning how Kolisi was not afforded the same audience with the ref as the opposition captain.
The Mako Vunipola smash on Barrett in the same game as the SBW red in 2017 (with differing sanctions) followed by the "we have a deal" Garces special the following week and the resultant shoulder shrugs from our leaders and coaches showed the seeds had been sewn. We went from a team with a 100 year invisibility cloak on, to one who gets carded more than everyone else in the space of a few years up to and including the Taa'vao/Andrew Porter fiasco which again resulted in another bungled home series. And Foster still had nothing to say.
We have turned the other cheek on and off the pitch for too long.
The coaching should be ruthless and the players should be ruthless. Mark Robinson similarly showed a lack of ruthlessness. Kite flying and taking the temperature of the nation before making decisions. Sack him or back him.
@Steve Agree. The wanting to be seen as the good guys stems I think from the Silver Lake private equity takeover of the All Black ‘brand’. They’re morphing into a marketing concept masquerading as a rugby team. There’s a lack of smarts from Foster, which as you say stands in stark contrast with the gamesmanship, media trolling and outright skullduggery that his counterparts among the other leading Test nations so readily deploy. We see it on-field too, with the Springboks’ wily gamesmanship on display with the fake injuries, time wasting and, in this last test, the lineout tactic that drew the ABs into getting penalised in their maul defence. The ABs and the term ‘nice guys’ don’t go together, but Foster has been determined to seem reasonable and affable and malleable. That’s infected the entire team’s mentality. No sense of ruthlessness. No hard edges. Just flaccid.
-
@Steve Agree. The wanting to be seen as the good guys stems I think from the Silver Lake private equity takeover of the All Black ‘brand’. They’re morphing into a marketing concept masquerading as a rugby team. There’s a lack of smarts from Foster, which as you say stands in stark contrast with the gamesmanship, media trolling and outright skullduggery that his counterparts among the other leading Test nations so readily deploy. We see it on-field too, with the Springboks’ wily gamesmanship on display with the fake injuries, time wasting and, in this last test, the lineout tactic that drew the ABs into getting penalised in their maul defence. The ABs and the term ‘nice guys’ don’t go together, but Foster has been determined to seem reasonable and affable and malleable. That’s infected the entire team’s mentality. No sense of ruthlessness. No hard edges. Just flaccid.
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Steve Agree. The wanting to be seen as the good guys stems I think from the Silver Lake private equity takeover of the All Black ‘brand’. They’re morphing into a marketing concept masquerading as a rugby team. There’s a lack of smarts from Foster, which as you say stands in stark contrast with the gamesmanship, media trolling and outright skullduggery that his counterparts among the other leading Test nations so readily deploy. We see it on-field too, with the Springboks’ wily gamesmanship on display with the fake injuries, time wasting and, in this last test, the lineout tactic that drew the ABs into getting penalised in their maul defence. The ABs and the term ‘nice guys’ don’t go together, but Foster has been determined to seem reasonable and affable and malleable. That’s infected the entire team’s mentality. No sense of ruthlessness. No hard edges. Just flaccid.
Exactly, the ticket is 100 quid, the jersey is a 100 quid , the TV subscription is x per month.
Then im sitting there angry about some on field issue and he potters out after the game to say something non committal like "we will look for clarification in that space" instead of saying "Barrett didn't touch Marx's head on any angle I've seen, but yeah I have seen them given, similarly Vermuelen was slapping the head off Jacobsen and the officiating team kept schtum so we will seek clarification on that". SAY SOMETHING. Sew seeds. Create a narrative.
None of the other tier 1 coaches and captains are playing fair on and off the field. The refs are getting harangued. Our stoicism in the face of any perceived shafting is getting us nowhere.
-
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Steve Agree. The wanting to be seen as the good guys stems I think from the Silver Lake private equity takeover of the All Black ‘brand’. They’re morphing into a marketing concept masquerading as a rugby team. There’s a lack of smarts from Foster, which as you say stands in stark contrast with the gamesmanship, media trolling and outright skullduggery that his counterparts among the other leading Test nations so readily deploy. We see it on-field too, with the Springboks’ wily gamesmanship on display with the fake injuries, time wasting and, in this last test, the lineout tactic that drew the ABs into getting penalised in their maul defence. The ABs and the term ‘nice guys’ don’t go together, but Foster has been determined to seem reasonable and affable and malleable. That’s infected the entire team’s mentality. No sense of ruthlessness. No hard edges. Just flaccid.
Exactly, the ticket is 100 quid, the jersey is a 100 quid , the TV subscription is x per month.
Then im sitting there angry about some on field issue and he potters out after the game to say something non committal like "we will look for clarification in that space" instead of saying "Barrett didn't touch Marx's head on any angle I've seen, but yeah I have seen them given, similarly Vermuelen was slapping the head off Jacobsen and the officiating team kept schtum so we will seek clarification on that". SAY SOMETHING. Sew seeds. Create a narrative.
None of the other tier 1 coaches and captains are playing fair on and off the field. The refs are getting harangued. Our stoicism in the face of any perceived shafting is getting us nowhere.
-
@Steve said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
similarly Vermuelen was slapping the head off Jacobsen
It was his back. Stop being a sore loser
We were out played
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Steve said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
similarly Vermuelen was slapping the head off Jacobsen
It was his back. Stop being a sore loser
We were out played
The third one 100% clatters him on the head.
-
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Steve said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
similarly Vermuelen was slapping the head off Jacobsen
It was his back. Stop being a sore loser
We were out played
The third one 100% clatters him on the head.
-
It 100% doesn't which is why the ref said play on. He was in a great position to see it all
So much whining about silly stuff and not enough concentration on why our pack got beaten up (legally)
Not the be all and end all but playing with 7 Forwards against the Boks forward pack did not help it made the Job a lot tougher, that was One of many factors.
Both hookers could not throw straight.
We couldn't hold there scrum with 7 forwards
Passive clean outs at ruck and maul time Scott Barrett really the only one who did that and he missed his target and got carded.
Lack of aggression in our carries.
Our Captain looked shell shocked.We look like we were going though the motions to be honest, a real lack of intent,I have seen that before during the last 3 years.
-
Not the be all and end all but playing with 7 Forwards against the Boks forward pack did not help it made the Job a lot tougher, that was One of many factors.
Both hookers could not throw straight.
We couldn't hold there scrum with 7 forwards
Passive clean outs at ruck and maul time Scott Barrett really the only one who did that and he missed his target and got carded.
Lack of aggression in our carries.
Our Captain looked shell shocked.We look like we were going though the motions to be honest, a real lack of intent,I have seen that before during the last 3 years.
Agree with all of that
In general I just don't think our pack is that good. It's competitive but we struggle when the game is dragged into an arm wrestle. We only have one style of play
I think the core problem is SR. The game is refereed differently at that level therefore what works at that level doesn't always apply to Test level.
For instance one of the higher rated forwards in NZ almost never enters through the gate. In SR the attacking team is given so much leeway so he never gets called. When he's in the Test side he concedes a lot of penalties and NZ fans complain about pedantic refs
The positives of SR are there too. If we do manage to get quick ball we play pretty rugby and run away with matches. It's just a lot harder to get quick ball because of the higher quality opposition and refs that enforce the laws
At least it's a long tournament so we might be able to adjust. Otherwise it will be feast or famine from week to week. As it has been for years
-
Agree with all of that
In general I just don't think our pack is that good. It's competitive but we struggle when the game is dragged into an arm wrestle. We only have one style of play
I think the core problem is SR. The game is refereed differently at that level therefore what works at that level doesn't always apply to Test level.
For instance one of the higher rated forwards in NZ almost never enters through the gate. In SR the attacking team is given so much leeway so he never gets called. When he's in the Test side he concedes a lot of penalties and NZ fans complain about pedantic refs
The positives of SR are there too. If we do manage to get quick ball we play pretty rugby and run away with matches. It's just a lot harder to get quick ball because of the higher quality opposition and refs that enforce the laws
At least it's a long tournament so we might be able to adjust. Otherwise it will be feast or famine from week to week. As it has been for years
Yep spot on,We are not conditioned for that hard Grind arm wrestle type game.
SR has to change then but I can not see that happening.
Maybe a global Club championship may help some what, even it is only 2 or 3 of our SR teams qualify for it. -
We’re in a bit of a bind, then. We stuck in an ever narrowing competition with Australia, which needs pretty, free-flowing rugby with lots of tries to compete in a crowded winter sports market. Northern Hemisphere-style grindfests, with the referee blowing the pea out of the whistle, won’t sell in this television dominated market. And without the South African teams offering a point of difference anymore, the NZ teams are locked into that style. The Silver Lake cash will run out eventually and in the meantime the brand will be gradually destroyed. But in the nature of private equity investment, they will extract every drop of remaining value before they inevitably pull out. Sad, but true.
