RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks
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You hit it in one, VM, we are being left behind in the ‘thinking’ department, and man does it show on the field. What on earth did Foster say/do at half time to conjure up such a bunch of shite in the second stanza?
@pjay well based on what McLeod said, they clearly decided to change something, and boy did it back fire.
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@Steve said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Stargazer said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@pjay said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
No team plays like the ABs (and that is not a compliment). It is the height of arrogance to think that you have achieved some new paradigm in rugby while the rest of the best play what I call the ‘European’ way….and win
Who's claiming to have achieved "some new paradigm in rugby"?
I haven't seen any arrogance whatsoever. Just incompetence.
I think the arrogance comment is around the view a lot of AB supports have that NZ alway has he best players, best set up and best rugby thinkers
A lot of our IP went abroad.
And I can't believe O Gara was let into the Crusaders set up. We up-skilled the next (probably) Irish coach at the expense of a New Zealander.
Who decided to let him in?
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Steve said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Stargazer said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@pjay said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
No team plays like the ABs (and that is not a compliment). It is the height of arrogance to think that you have achieved some new paradigm in rugby while the rest of the best play what I call the ‘European’ way….and win
Who's claiming to have achieved "some new paradigm in rugby"?
I haven't seen any arrogance whatsoever. Just incompetence.
I think the arrogance comment is around the view a lot of AB supports have that NZ alway has he best players, best set up and best rugby thinkers
A lot of our IP went abroad.
And I can't believe O Gara was let into the Crusaders set up. We up-skilled the next (probably) Irish coach at the expense of a New Zealander.
Who decided to let him in?
I don't know, but it shouldn't have been sanctioned.
Razor I presume?
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Yeah I also think the issues are multi layered,
Foster can still be the wrong man for the job to go with the other concerns, it doesn’t have to be one or the other,
I also find our failures at u20 level a massive massive concern, our grass roots stuff which was always our advantage appears to be slipping big time .
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So out of 84 votes, only 15 of us saw that coming. I can only assume that a lot of people haven’t noticed the list of Foster’s AB “achievements” or just have truly “blind” faith that what had taken over 100 years to build has fallen.
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So out of 84 votes, only 15 of us saw that coming. I can only assume that a lot of people haven’t noticed the list of Foster’s AB “achievements” or just have truly “blind” faith that what had taken over 100 years to build has fallen.
@Snowy said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
So out of 84 votes, only 15 of us saw that coming. I can only assume that a lot of people haven’t noticed the list of Foster’s AB “achievements” or just have truly “blind” faith that what had taken over 100 years to build has fallen.
I think you will find that like me, I thought we would lose but it felt wrong to vote that. Almost feels like you want that to happen if you vote that way. Head and heart thing was mentioned multiple times in the thread
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@stodders said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
The second 40 was an aberration though.
The whole 80 against the Boks was a aberration. I'd add we need to question why the lessons weren't learned from that.
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@stodders said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
The second 40 was an aberration though.
The whole 80 against the Boks was a aberration. I'd add we need to question why the lessons weren't learned from that.
"a characteristic that deviates from the normal type."
if it happens twice in a row I am afraid it is NOT an aberration.
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@Chester-Draws said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@antipodean said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Machpants said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@antipodean said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Quick report from your local correspondent here in fucking hot Paris:
Backroom full of donkeys. Vaai, predictability, the worst of them. Tight five carried them. In as much as you can call that display "carried".
De Groot will want to forget that game in a hurry. ALB was MIA after that beautiful pop pass to Rieko.
Will Jordan is obviously a very dimwitted slow learner. Jump to contest you fuckwomble.Beaudy was bloody good until the final quarter. As was Mounga.
The blame for you Foster haters needs to be apportioned to the rest of the coaching staff who have had plenty of time to address the obvious issues. This was a collective display of incompetence.
The buck stops at the head coach. And with Ryan and Schmidt we have had some games which forwards really muscled up and attack was good versus decent opposition. Prior to them, none. So yes Ryan and Schmidt are part of the selectors and coaching team, but there has been improvement with them on board. Foster had the final say, and the midfield bomb/millions of sorry kicks/play in your own 22 has been the default under the entire foster tenure. And that leads to our losses
Ahh yes, the predictable lament that 'when we're good it's the assistants, when we're bad it's the head coach'. Those with a few more functioning synapses might start to look at the quality of player available and reflect on that body of evidence.
IMO you have to be a dimwit to believe that the problem is just the head coach.
Nope, just recognising that in the end the head coach makes the decisions, and if he ignores his assistants, then they cannot be held accountable.
We have plenty of evidence that Schmidt is a good coach, and that Ryan is a great forwards coach. If they have turned to rubbish within one year, then it is one man that has done that.
When things were going dreadfully, Foster had no choice but to allow them to make changes. Once things were going well, we saw him revert to his favourite players and plays.
By the end of next year the whining about not having decent players will be gone. It will take the change of one man in the set-up. (I'm not even particularly pro-Robertson, I think that would happen if he were to resign and say Jamie Joseph got the job.)
And you have this deep inside knowledge of the discussions between Foster, Schmidt and Ryan how?
If you think all the problems can be solved by replacing one man and then in a few months NZ Rugby will be back to the glory days of 50 point shellackings of the Boks, then I could put you in touch with some people who are selling a bridge?
You only have to look at the U20 performance since 2016, the lack of player development, the innovation in coaching and rugby structure in the NH and NZR's seeming inability to notice the rugby world has moved on to see the problems are way deeper than that
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
You only have to look at the U20 performance since 2016,
The high performace people of NZR kept on saying that winning wasn't the purpose, but player development was. If that's what they've been working towards - with some average to bad coaches being appointed (Philpott :face_vomiting: ) - they have achieved half of that: not winning.
Add to that the impact of Covid and the lack of proper U20 tours like other countries do.
Hopefully, the new U20 Rugby Championship will make a positive difference. Still need good, new U20 coaches though.
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So out of 84 votes, only 15 of us saw that coming. I can only assume that a lot of people haven’t noticed the list of Foster’s AB “achievements” or just have truly “blind” faith that what had taken over 100 years to build has fallen.
@Snowy said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
So out of 84 votes, only 15 of us saw that coming. I can only assume that a lot of people haven’t noticed the list of Foster’s AB “achievements” or just have truly “blind” faith that what had taken over 100 years to build has fallen.
39/84 predicted a loss. I doubt we've ever had a more pessimistic poll
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Its a pity Stevenson and/or Jordan did not get more minutes at 15 previously.
We also severely lack a Levi Aumua type at 12. It's just a necessity in international rugby now. You need someone to cart it up.
Fosters in and out Hokey Cokey selection policy has left a fair few guys not knowing where they stand. Roigard, DMAC, Jacobsen, Finau...I could go on. It's all over the place and has been for a few years. Perofeta (1 minute against Ireland), Sowakula, RTS, Ennor. Rightly or wrongly loads of blokes got messed around. Faingaanuku was in the wilderness for a longtime too.
We looked magic against Argentina with DMAC and then foster just ripped it all up.
I cannot get my head around his tenure at all. He is all over the place.
@Steve said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Its a pity Stevenson and/or Jordan did not get more minutes at 15 previously.
We also severely lack a Levi Aumua type at 12. It's just a necessity in international rugby now. You need someone to cart it up.
Fosters in and out Hokey Cokey selection policy has left a fair few guys not knowing where they stand. Roigard, DMAC, Jacobsen, Finau...I could go on. It's all over the place and has been for a few years. Perofeta (1 minute against Ireland), Sowakula, RTS, Ennor. Rightly or wrongly loads of blokes got messed around. Faingaanuku was in the wilderness for a longtime too.
We looked magic against Argentina with DMAC and then foster just ripped it all up.
I cannot get my head around his tenure at all. He is all over the place.
yes you can, under pressure Foster reverts to his favourites.
But there is no plan B. Unlike France we don't seem to be able to shift gears, to counter the opposition's plan B because we don't have one.
The powder is very dry.
What is worst, quality 10s go into the ABs and come out worse. I am sure I remember a time when players return from AB training camps and matches and are improved players.
Lomax, maybe, not many others. Most seem to go backwards. Especially at 10. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
You only have to look at the U20 performance since 2016,
The high performace people of NZR kept on saying that winning wasn't the purpose, but player development was. If that's what they've been working towards - with some average to bad coaches being appointed (Philpott :face_vomiting: ) - they have achieved half of that: not winning.
Add to that the impact of Covid and the lack of proper U20 tours like other countries do.
Hopefully, the new U20 Rugby Championship will make a positive difference. Still need good, new U20 coaches though.
@Stargazer problem is, you see the play at the lower levels replicates those same issues we see at the top.
I'm not sure players are the issue, it's the readiness and mental conditioning as they come through the grades is the problem, and something we have long known, we simply don't seem to like playing the type of footy required to win RWCs, we still want to win pretty
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how hard is it to have good exits?
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@Steve said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Its a pity Stevenson and/or Jordan did not get more minutes at 15 previously.
We also severely lack a Levi Aumua type at 12. It's just a necessity in international rugby now. You need someone to cart it up.
Fosters in and out Hokey Cokey selection policy has left a fair few guys not knowing where they stand. Roigard, DMAC, Jacobsen, Finau...I could go on. It's all over the place and has been for a few years. Perofeta (1 minute against Ireland), Sowakula, RTS, Ennor. Rightly or wrongly loads of blokes got messed around. Faingaanuku was in the wilderness for a longtime too.
We looked magic against Argentina with DMAC and then foster just ripped it all up.
I cannot get my head around his tenure at all. He is all over the place.
yes you can, under pressure Foster reverts to his favourites.
But there is no plan B. Unlike France we don't seem to be able to shift gears, to counter the opposition's plan B because we don't have one.
The powder is very dry.
What is worst, quality 10s go into the ABs and come out worse. I am sure I remember a time when players return from AB training camps and matches and are improved players.
Lomax, maybe, not many others. Most seem to go backwards. Especially at 10. -
@Snowy said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
So out of 84 votes, only 15 of us saw that coming. I can only assume that a lot of people haven’t noticed the list of Foster’s AB “achievements” or just have truly “blind” faith that what had taken over 100 years to build has fallen.
I think you will find that like me, I thought we would lose but it felt wrong to vote that. Almost feels like you want that to happen if you vote that way. Head and heart thing was mentioned multiple times in the thread
@Machpants said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Snowy said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
So out of 84 votes, only 15 of us saw that coming. I can only assume that a lot of people haven’t noticed the list of Foster’s AB “achievements” or just have truly “blind” faith that what had taken over 100 years to build has fallen.
I think you will find that like me, I thought we would lose but it felt wrong to vote that. Almost feels like you want that to happen if you vote that way. Head and heart thing was mentioned multiple times in the thread
Yeah I voted for the win and stuck 20 quid on the win.
Couldn’t bring myself to vote for a loss.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Stargazer said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@pjay said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
No team plays like the ABs (and that is not a compliment). It is the height of arrogance to think that you have achieved some new paradigm in rugby while the rest of the best play what I call the ‘European’ way….and win
Who's claiming to have achieved "some new paradigm in rugby"?
I haven't seen any arrogance whatsoever. Just incompetence.
I think the arrogance comment is around the view a lot of AB supports have that NZ alway has he best players, best set up and best rugby thinkers
A lot of our IP went abroad.
And I can't believe O Gara was let into the Crusaders set up. We up-skilled the next (probably) Irish coach at the expense of a New Zealander.
@Steve said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
And I can't believe O Gara was let into the Crusaders set up. We up-skilled the next (probably) Irish coach at the expense of a New Zealander.
You're - IMO incorrectly - assuming that O'Gara was the only one getting something out of his coaching stint in NZ. I'd say, O'Gara was already a very good coach and he added something to the coaching set-up of the Crusaders. They may actually have learned some good things from him, too.
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@nostrildamus don’t worry. Next year the ABs have McKenzie and ????? as the options at 10.
@stodders said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@nostrildamus don’t worry. Next year the ABs have McKenzie and ????? as the options at 10.
I wasn't a fan of him at 10 but he slowly swung me around a bit. Played better in NZ XV though.
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@Stargazer problem is, you see the play at the lower levels replicates those same issues we see at the top.
I'm not sure players are the issue, it's the readiness and mental conditioning as they come through the grades is the problem, and something we have long known, we simply don't seem to like playing the type of footy required to win RWCs, we still want to win pretty
@taniwharugby 2011/2015 crops had to learn that the hard way in 2007. It doesn’t matter how you win, you just need to win.
ABs and AB fans will definitely be desperate in 4 more years to win any which way. Then the real learnings can begin again.
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Why don’t we do the winning French thing and have a major off field political blow up by sacking our head coach mid tournament … and hunt down Razor to get on a plane toute suite.
What have we got to lose… -
@taniwharugby 2011/2015 crops had to learn that the hard way in 2007. It doesn’t matter how you win, you just need to win.
ABs and AB fans will definitely be desperate in 4 more years to win any which way. Then the real learnings can begin again.
@stodders 2011 was the only one I think ground out wins, 2015, that side was a class above and the real final was v SA.
