All Blacks 2023
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It is a bit rough for DMac played really well in SR and in ABs this year then doesnt get a look in.
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@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
DMac and Roigard
It's got to the point where we need to make use of these guys.
This place is going to get super grim if we go down without a fight.@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
DMac and Roigard
It's got to the point where we need to make use of these guys.
This place is going to get super grim if we go down without a fight.We are three weeks away from "4 more years boys".
Either Foster or some strong figures within the group (if there are any) need to grab a hold of this. Like you say I fear we will all be left wondering what could have been...
We don't have a 2015 vintage available but there are plenty of players knocking around who are/could have been useful. The initial 33 was poorly selected and furthermore he is not even selecting correctly from the 33 he himself picked.
Id have Heem, Levi Aumua, RTS over ALB and Havili. He has had 4 years to find someone to carry the ball at 12. It took 2.5 of those for him to pick Jordie.
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@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
DMac and Roigard
It's got to the point where we need to make use of these guys.
This place is going to get super grim if we go down without a fight.@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
DMac and Roigard
It's got to the point where we need to make use of these guys.
This place is going to get super grim if we go down without a fight.They will get games against Namibia and Uruguay, rip them to bits, and then be dropped when it matters for Beaudy and Finlay Christie.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
DMac and Roigard
It's got to the point where we need to make use of these guys.
This place is going to get super grim if we go down without a fight.We are three weeks away from "4 more years boys".
Either Foster or some strong figures within the group (if there are any) need to grab a hold of this. Like you say I fear we will all be left wondering what could have been...
We don't have a 2015 vintage available but there are plenty of players knocking around who are/could have been useful. The initial 33 was poorly selected and furthermore he is not even selecting correctly from the 33 he himself picked.
Id have Heem, Levi Aumua, RTS over ALB and Havili. He has had 4 years to find someone to carry the ball at 12. It took 2.5 of those for him to pick Jordie.
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
DMac and Roigard
It's got to the point where we need to make use of these guys.
This place is going to get super grim if we go down without a fight.We are three weeks away from "4 more years boys".
Either Foster or some strong figures within the group (if there are any) need to grab a hold of this. Like you say I fear we will all be left wondering what could have been...
We don't have a 2015 vintage available but there are plenty of players knocking around who are/could have been useful. The initial 33 was poorly selected and furthermore he is not even selecting correctly from the 33 he himself picked.
Id have Heem, Levi Aumua, RTS over ALB and Havili. He has had 4 years to find someone to carry the ball at 12. It took 2.5 of those for him to pick Jordie.
Jack Goodhue. Or did he shag Fozzie's daughter?
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@nzzp i really don't think we are going to be ripping anyone apart bringing on the likes of christie, newell, laulala (once lomax is back), havili, ALB, jacobsen etc.
surely if that's the plan you'd pick a different bench?Foster has definitely been conservative in his selections, squad wise and on game day.
I think Beauden Barretts inclusion is a massive problem because he also creates collateral damage on the bench.
If you had a Jordan or Stevenson at 15
Lol thank fuck you're not a selector.
Do you think the last few years of Barrett at 15 have been productive?
Do you think we should continue?
He is one of my favourite players of all time but its not working in my opinion.
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@nzzp i really don't think we are going to be ripping anyone apart bringing on the likes of christie, newell, laulala (once lomax is back), havili, ALB, jacobsen etc.
surely if that's the plan you'd pick a different bench?Foster has definitely been conservative in his selections, squad wise and on game day.
I think Beauden Barretts inclusion is a massive problem because he also creates collateral damage on the bench.
If you had a Jordan or Stevenson at 15
Lol thank fuck you're not a selector.
Do you think the last few years of Barrett at 15 have been productive?
No, for various reasons.
Do you think we should continue?
Yes. If he's not the best option he's second best.
He is one of my favourite players of all time but its not working in my opinion.
It's not going to work with players that are less skilled.
SS has glaring issues in his game he needs to address. Jordan just gave a horror show on top of his obvious frailties in the defensive aspect of the game.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@nzzp i really don't think we are going to be ripping anyone apart bringing on the likes of christie, newell, laulala (once lomax is back), havili, ALB, jacobsen etc.
surely if that's the plan you'd pick a different bench?Foster has definitely been conservative in his selections, squad wise and on game day.
I think Beauden Barretts inclusion is a massive problem because he also creates collateral damage on the bench.
If you had a Jordan or Stevenson at 15
Lol thank fuck you're not a selector.
Sick argument
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@nzzp i really don't think we are going to be ripping anyone apart bringing on the likes of christie, newell, laulala (once lomax is back), havili, ALB, jacobsen etc.
surely if that's the plan you'd pick a different bench?Foster has definitely been conservative in his selections, squad wise and on game day.
I think Beauden Barretts inclusion is a massive problem because he also creates collateral damage on the bench.
If you had a Jordan or Stevenson at 15
Lol thank fuck you're not a selector.
Sick argument
Thanks champ.
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@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@nzzp i really don't think we are going to be ripping anyone apart bringing on the likes of christie, newell, laulala (once lomax is back), havili, ALB, jacobsen etc.
surely if that's the plan you'd pick a different bench?Foster has definitely been conservative in his selections, squad wise and on game day.
I think Beauden Barretts inclusion is a massive problem because he also creates collateral damage on the bench.
If you had a Jordan or Stevenson at 15
Lol thank fuck you're not a selector.
Do you think the last few years of Barrett at 15 have been productive?
No, for various reasons.
Do you think we should continue?
Yes. If he's not the best option he's second best.
He is one of my favourite players of all time but its not working in my opinion.
It's not going to work with players that are less skilled.
SS has glaring issues in his game he needs to address. Jordan just gave a horror show on top of his obvious frailties in the defensive aspect of the game.
@antipodean I’m not sure NZ have picked the players to play a low error, risk free game. NZ won’t win by grinding out a win. Which made the last 30 mins against France so baffling.
When it all clicks, it is nigh on impossible to stop (1st 60 mins vs England last Nov, 1st 20 mins vs SA in RC). But if it doesn’t click, it offers so many opportunities to the opposition.
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@antipodean I’m not sure NZ have picked the players to play a low error, risk free game. NZ won’t win by grinding out a win. Which made the last 30 mins against France so baffling.
When it all clicks, it is nigh on impossible to stop (1st 60 mins vs England last Nov, 1st 20 mins vs SA in RC). But if it doesn’t click, it offers so many opportunities to the opposition.
@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean I’m not sure NZ have picked the players to play a low error, risk free game. NZ won’t win by grinding out a win. Which made the last 30 mins against France so baffling.
When it all clicks, it is nigh on impossible to stop (1st 60 mins vs England last Nov, 1st 20 mins vs SA in RC). But if it doesn’t click, it offers so many opportunities to the opposition.
I'm a firm believer that the pack isn't hard edged and pragmatic enough in the face of a skill and smarts deficiency. No amount of fucking around with the back three will resolve an inability to secure possession.
I wonder if the people complaining about that can recognise the core issue.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean I’m not sure NZ have picked the players to play a low error, risk free game. NZ won’t win by grinding out a win. Which made the last 30 mins against France so baffling.
When it all clicks, it is nigh on impossible to stop (1st 60 mins vs England last Nov, 1st 20 mins vs SA in RC). But if it doesn’t click, it offers so many opportunities to the opposition.
I'm a firm believer that the pack isn't hard edged and pragmatic enough in the face of a skill and smarts deficiency. No amount of fucking around with the back three will resolve an inability to secure possession.
I wonder if the people complaining about that can recognise the core issue.
@antipodean the core issue is a game plan which consists of 'give the ball back to the opposition at every opportunity, particularly in our own half'. If the back 3 stopped doing that, we would be in a much better possession position - so the way they play most certainly can affect it.
Of course they're just doing what they are told to do, so changing them won't fix it. -
@antipodean I’m not sure NZ have picked the players to play a low error, risk free game. NZ won’t win by grinding out a win. Which made the last 30 mins against France so baffling.
When it all clicks, it is nigh on impossible to stop (1st 60 mins vs England last Nov, 1st 20 mins vs SA in RC). But if it doesn’t click, it offers so many opportunities to the opposition.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean I’m not sure NZ have picked the players to play a low error, risk free game. NZ won’t win by grinding out a win. Which made the last 30 mins against France so baffling.
When it all clicks, it is nigh on impossible to stop (1st 60 mins vs England last Nov, 1st 20 mins vs SA in RC). But if it doesn’t click, it offers so many opportunities to the opposition.
I'm a firm believer that the pack isn't hard edged and pragmatic enough in the face of a skill and smarts deficiency. No amount of fucking around with the back three will resolve an inability to secure possession.
I wonder if the people complaining about that can recognise the core issue.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean I’m not sure NZ have picked the players to play a low error, risk free game. NZ won’t win by grinding out a win. Which made the last 30 mins against France so baffling.
When it all clicks, it is nigh on impossible to stop (1st 60 mins vs England last Nov, 1st 20 mins vs SA in RC). But if it doesn’t click, it offers so many opportunities to the opposition.
I'm a firm believer that the pack isn't hard edged and pragmatic enough in the face of a skill and smarts deficiency. No amount of fucking around with the back three will resolve an inability to secure possession.
I wonder if the people complaining about that can recognise the core issue.
Yep. Before we even look at the flat track bully 10, or the out of form fullback, or the shell of the form player 12, the tight five has been poor.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean I’m not sure NZ have picked the players to play a low error, risk free game. NZ won’t win by grinding out a win. Which made the last 30 mins against France so baffling.
When it all clicks, it is nigh on impossible to stop (1st 60 mins vs England last Nov, 1st 20 mins vs SA in RC). But if it doesn’t click, it offers so many opportunities to the opposition.
I'm a firm believer that the pack isn't hard edged and pragmatic enough in the face of a skill and smarts deficiency. No amount of fucking around with the back three will resolve an inability to secure possession.
I wonder if the people complaining about that can recognise the core issue.
@antipodean honest question - do NZ have the players? The NZ u20 cupboard is bare. It’ll take a lot of direction from Robertson and his coaches to Super and Provincial coaches and the players identified to develop these skills in the next 4 years.
I don’t think NZ has a skills shortage. I think they no longer have the feel for the game to know best when to execute those skills to punish the opposition. And when faced with blowtorch pressure, the skills are crumbling.
Have NZ players fallen behind mentally? Or is the foreign exodus that has gutted NZ rugby, poorly working talent pathways and the lack of serious competition in super rugby pacific the bigger issues?
Feels like NZ have a big job to climb back atop the rugby world. Always been able to reinvent themselves before. Is it different this time?
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@stodders we have picked some low risk error free players - they're on our bench to come on against tiring opposition and rip them to low risk error free bits.
@reprobate opposition aren’t tiring. But of a clue there
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@antipodean honest question - do NZ have the players? The NZ u20 cupboard is bare. It’ll take a lot of direction from Robertson and his coaches to Super and Provincial coaches and the players identified to develop these skills in the next 4 years.
I don’t think NZ has a skills shortage. I think they no longer have the feel for the game to know best when to execute those skills to punish the opposition. And when faced with blowtorch pressure, the skills are crumbling.
Have NZ players fallen behind mentally? Or is the foreign exodus that has gutted NZ rugby, poorly working talent pathways and the lack of serious competition in super rugby pacific the bigger issues?
Feels like NZ have a big job to climb back atop the rugby world. Always been able to reinvent themselves before. Is it different this time?
@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean honest question - do NZ have the players? The NZ u20 cupboard is bare. It’ll take a lot of direction from Robertson and his coaches to Super and Provincial coaches and the players identified to develop these skills in the next 4 years.
I don’t think NZ has a skills shortage. I think they no longer have the feel for the game to know best when to execute those skills to punish the opposition. And when faced with blowtorch pressure, the skills are crumbling.
Have NZ players fallen behind mentally? Or is the foreign exodus that has gutted NZ rugby, poorly working talent pathways and the lack of serious competition in super rugby pacific the bigger issues?
Feels like NZ have a big job to climb back atop the rugby world. Always been able to reinvent themselves before. Is it different this time?
Perhaps the underlying problem is our reliance on SR.
WR won't genuinely attempt to speed up the game until we become better than the NH at this current version.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean honest question - do NZ have the players? The NZ u20 cupboard is bare. It’ll take a lot of direction from Robertson and his coaches to Super and Provincial coaches and the players identified to develop these skills in the next 4 years.
I don’t think NZ has a skills shortage. I think they no longer have the feel for the game to know best when to execute those skills to punish the opposition. And when faced with blowtorch pressure, the skills are crumbling.
Have NZ players fallen behind mentally? Or is the foreign exodus that has gutted NZ rugby, poorly working talent pathways and the lack of serious competition in super rugby pacific the bigger issues?
Feels like NZ have a big job to climb back atop the rugby world. Always been able to reinvent themselves before. Is it different this time?
Perhaps the underlying problem is our reliance on SR.
WR won't genuinely attempt to speed up the game until we become better than the NH at this current version.
@antipodean WR certainly feels v euro-centric. And with SA hitching their horse to the euro-wagon, that is only going to be amplified.
NZ are really going to have to innovate to compete. First stop - stop the bleeding of the grassroots game and get more kids playing rugby for longer. Increases chances of late developers being identified. NZ have never had the largest playing numbers, but they’ve been most efficient with what they have. Ireland are leaving them in their wake right now.
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@antipodean honest question - do NZ have the players? The NZ u20 cupboard is bare. It’ll take a lot of direction from Robertson and his coaches to Super and Provincial coaches and the players identified to develop these skills in the next 4 years.
I don’t think NZ has a skills shortage. I think they no longer have the feel for the game to know best when to execute those skills to punish the opposition. And when faced with blowtorch pressure, the skills are crumbling.
Have NZ players fallen behind mentally? Or is the foreign exodus that has gutted NZ rugby, poorly working talent pathways and the lack of serious competition in super rugby pacific the bigger issues?
Feels like NZ have a big job to climb back atop the rugby world. Always been able to reinvent themselves before. Is it different this time?
@stodders as I have said before, when Cron coached scrummaging in NZ and we were atop the world, NZR had Cron running clinics around the country.
This has good and bad effects: the good aspect is NZR (probably at directive of the coaches at the time) identified an issue in our game and looked to improve it...the bad part of this, is that this meant all the packs were taught to play the same way.
So I think NZR and Razor will need to look at some key areas and look at how we can start upskilling players.
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@antipodean honest question - do NZ have the players? The NZ u20 cupboard is bare. It’ll take a lot of direction from Robertson and his coaches to Super and Provincial coaches and the players identified to develop these skills in the next 4 years.
I don’t think NZ has a skills shortage. I think they no longer have the feel for the game to know best when to execute those skills to punish the opposition. And when faced with blowtorch pressure, the skills are crumbling.
Have NZ players fallen behind mentally? Or is the foreign exodus that has gutted NZ rugby, poorly working talent pathways and the lack of serious competition in super rugby pacific the bigger issues?
Feels like NZ have a big job to climb back atop the rugby world. Always been able to reinvent themselves before. Is it different this time?
@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean honest question - do NZ have the players? The NZ u20 cupboard is bare. It’ll take a lot of direction from Robertson and his coaches to Super and Provincial coaches and the players identified to develop these skills in the next 4 years.
I don’t think NZ has a skills shortage. I think they no longer have the feel for the game to know best when to execute those skills to punish the opposition. And when faced with blowtorch pressure, the skills are crumbling.
Have NZ players fallen behind mentally? Or is the foreign exodus that has gutted NZ rugby, poorly working talent pathways and the lack of serious competition in super rugby pacific the bigger issues?
Feels like NZ have a big job to climb back atop the rugby world. Always been able to reinvent themselves before. Is it different this time?
This is a good post with some very good questions. I think the expectations of the next ABs coaching staff are way too high. They can only do so much with the player pool available to them. We sure should see improvements in a few years, but there are many more things that need to change well below ABs level.
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I certainly never see abs getting back to the good old days of such total dominance that people complained it was bad for rugby. But I think we will see less bone headed stubbornness of thinking of foster and his Cheika like 'we just need to 2015 AB better'. Razor is nothing if not innovative with his players and conservative with the basics of winning. It's a good combo. But the rest of the world have caught up with our system as a whole, and we will never have the players or the money to overtake so completely again
I feel privileged to have been around in the era of giants, but disgusted that the empire fell far worse than it needed when that was over because of NZR comfort zone pick and support of the entirely lacklustre foster
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@stodders we have picked some low risk error free players - they're on our bench to come on against tiring opposition and rip them to low risk error free bits.
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@stodders we have picked some low risk error free players - they're on our bench to come on against tiring opposition and rip them to low risk error free bits.
All those Cantablacks of the early 2000s would have been superstars in this era
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@antipodean WR certainly feels v euro-centric. And with SA hitching their horse to the euro-wagon, that is only going to be amplified.
NZ are really going to have to innovate to compete. First stop - stop the bleeding of the grassroots game and get more kids playing rugby for longer. Increases chances of late developers being identified. NZ have never had the largest playing numbers, but they’ve been most efficient with what they have. Ireland are leaving them in their wake right now.
@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean WR certainly feels v euro-centric. And with SA hitching their horse to the euro-wagon, that is only going to be amplified.
NZ are really going to have to innovate to compete. First stop - stop the bleeding of the grassroots game and get more kids playing rugby for longer. Increases chances of late developers being identified. NZ have never had the largest playing numbers, but they’ve been most efficient with what they have. Ireland are leaving them in their wake right now.
Never mind Ireland. Leinster alone are leaving them in their wake.
There are 5 or 6 more back rowers ready to take Van Der Fliers place.
They also had Dan Leavy who's career was cut short due to an illegal clean on his knee.
He was arguably better than VDF.
They are churning out quality players up there.
I think NZRU thought heritage alone would keep us on the crest of the wave. But professionalism and money has turned the likes of France and Ireland into production lines of ready made athletes.
